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Will estrone/marshallow root affect test results?
Dogged <ksherbin@...>
A vet did acupuncture and chiropractic on Inky 9 days ago.She gave him an estrone shot because he's been having trouble with his stifles (not lame) and she said when he was in competition more than a decade ago he periodically got estrone shots for slippery stifles. She also sold me marshmallow root powder thinking he may have hindgut ulcers (he kicks out when touched in his lower barrel, though that condition seems to be an on-off thing since he's been getting beet pulp and body work). My regular vet is coming this Tuesday to draw blood for ACTH and insulin/glucose/leptin tests. Will either the estrone or marshmallow root interfere with getting reliable results on the blood tests? Thanks! Karin & Inky
Forest, VA
IR/Cushing's
July 27, 2015 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Inky
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New file uploaded to main@ECIR.groups.io
main@ECIR.groups.io Notification <main+notification@...>
Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the main@ECIR.groups.io group. File: Salt Amounts.pdf Uploaded By: LeeAnne Bloye Description: You can access this file at the URL: Cheers, |
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Time to retest acth for seasonal rise in North America
I will soon re test Jesse's acth for the seasonal rise on or about August 01. I do not plan on testing insulin, leptin or glucose. I have had these tested many times and the ranges are always quite similar. (ppid/IR) thoughts on my decision just to test for acth? Also, I last tested cbc one year ago. CBC costs me $125.00. If a senior horse is in good health, with ppid/ir, should I be testing cbc yearly, at a minimum? or can I skip this test for now and only test when a situation arises? LJ Friedman San Diego Nov 2014 |
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Re: reoccuring infections and OTBC has this happened to you
Just to clarify, 'force feeding' salt would be done by forcibly placing the salt in the horse's mouth. An example would be dissolving it in some water and syringing it in. Loose feeding salt is what most of the posts are referring to; that is, adding loose salt to the ration (or feeding it alongside, for that matter) and allowing the horse to eat it on his own. I had aced several animal nutrition courses at a major university before joining this list but I knew absolutely nothing about (large) animal nutrition. That's because I swallowed all the dogma, without ever thinking things through. One 'fact' was that horses needed constant access to a salt block, and that if they had that access, they would consume all the salt they needed. Another was that if horses had access to loose minerals, they would eat as much as they needed. Did I ever think to look at the difference between cow and horse tongues? Our cows blow through salt blocks in days, while my horses once took more than a year to consume a single small salt block! Did I ever think to ask myself how a horse would sort out magnesium, zinc, and copper from a tub of mixed minerals? Or did I assume that whatever ratios they happened to be supplied in would be correct, and that my horses would all be equally deficient in each of the minerals? And that the 20+ pounds of hay they ate each day contributed nothing? It took awhile but I finally was able to recognize that many of my presuppositions were based on someone else's (professors, textbook authors, researchers) suppositions, not fact, and to think things through more logically. My IR horses are glad I did!
NE TX Zippy (IR) https://ECIR.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lisa%20and%20Zippy%20-%20Bunny%20-%20Rita Bunny, and Rita - IR |
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Re: Reaction to Prascend
I will take you up on the offer to ask for clarification! LOL First, has Annie had a neurologic exam by a knowledgeable vet, or have you done the neuro testing yourself and made the observations about placing feet, tail pull, circling, etc.? If a vet did the exam, did they quantify their findings, or did they suggest any other possible causes? Also, has Annie had her eyes thoroughly examined yet? Do I understand correctly that Annie has been dry lotted for some time? If so, how has she been receiving supplemental Vitamin E? Would you be able to share how much E you supplement, what kind, for how long, how it is stored, etc.? Any possibility of any of the host of things that can commonly cause neuro problems: EPM, trauma, viral causes (including rabies)? It is true that most of these things have a characteristic presentation. However, when a horse has more than one problem, the clinical signs can be extremely confusing. My sweet gelding Pookey Bear was an example. He was a recovering laminitic who wound up with concurrent EMND signs (a relapse) and EPM. Only a very astute vet intern from an area that is EPM-heavy was able to figure this out! The phenomenon that Nancy mentions also applied to my gelding: he suffered so much loss of muscle that it was hard to parse out what was neurologic vs. weakness and subsequent postural and gait adjustments. Sorry for all the questions. We will all help you sort this out!
NE TX Zippy (IR) https://ECIR.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lisa%20and%20Zippy%20-%20Bunny%20-%20Rita Bunny, and Rita - IR |
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Re: Testing a Horse for Insulin Resistance After Diet Change
Loss of concavity won't make the toes look, or be, longer but long toes can pull the sole more flat. Think of the sole as a trampolene and the hoof wall as the frame it is attached to. Agree that more frequent trims to keep the toe pulled back will be helpful. To test whole body iron status you have to send the blood to Kansas State's Comparative Hematology lab for ferritin. They do have a permit to accept samples from Canada (call the lab for details) but the sample handling is critical and similar to ACTH with freezing and overnight shipping so your vet may not be able to get all that coordinated in one day. Serum iron is basically a reflection of diet. Eleanor in PA EC Owner 2001 |
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Re: CA Trace and extra vitamins in Emergency Diet
Becky Byrns <rbyrns94@...>
I get my magnesium oxide at my local feed mill, last time I paid $16 for a 50lb bag
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Becky in ny On Sunday, July 17, 2016, Lin Reuther <LSReuther@...> wrote:
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Re: CA Trace and extra vitamins in Emergency Diet
Lin Reuther
Hi All, thank you for the great information! Charlie started out scarfing down the Ration Balancer soaked hay cubes with the. It's in E (human) capsules and Magnesiun tablets. Now, a couple of months later, he doesn't eat the soaked cubes very well, and picks out the capsules and tablets and leaves them. I know he is not happy being by himself in a dry lot. And of course he absolutely hates the grazing muzzle, constantly turning his butt to me when I come in and try to put it on him. That is a Haflinger for you! So I think I will try some of the suggestions for the Vitamin e in liquid form. What do you recommend for a palatable source forthe Magnesium? Discouraging how the expense can ratchet right up there.....Prascend at $3 a day, Ca Trace at $1 a day, and now more expensive E and Magnesium.....good thing I love his old guy! Lin and Charlie, the 29 year old Cushings Haflinger Vermont, April 2016 |
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Re: How to Search Messages - Thank you LeeAnne!
LeeAnne Bloye <ecir.archives@...>
Hi All, How to Search the Messages has been updated :-) Thanks for letting me know it was already out of date! It looks like everyone was reporting changes as they were being made by Groups.io If there is anything that changes, anyone sees that instructions are not corrector even clear, PLEASE mention it. Even drop me an email - link in signature - as I often just skim the topics and may miss a mention. Nancy thanks so much for your kind words. -- - LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario - Email me ECIR Archivist 03/2004 Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database? View the Database Stats |
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Re: Testing a Horse for Insulin Resistance After Diet Change
Jodie,you're doing a great job. Sorry for throwing confusion at you. Look forward to seeing the CH. :-)
Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada |
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Re: Testing a Horse for Insulin Resistance After Diet Change
Jodie-hid@...
Thank you Lavinia for all your great advise I really appreciate it. Is there a marker I should use for backing up the toe? I will change my trimming interval to mini trims every 2 weeks to get a handle on those toes. I currently own a pair of the equine fusion jogging boots that I can use on him for when he gets sore. Lorna I haven't created a case study for him yet as getting the pictures up were my top priority. But I will get it started tomorrow. Thanks, Terrace, BC, Canada Mojo - Photo Album |
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Re: Testing a Horse for Insulin Resistance After Diet Change
Sorry Jodie. I'm having trouble finding my way around.I mistakenly thought the link I posted was a case history link. That's what I was looking for. Is it somewhere?
Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada |
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Re: Testing a Horse for Insulin Resistance After Diet Change
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Jodie, Thanks for adding all those photos - really helpful. You've done a really good job in getting a number of the serious problems with Mojo's feet moving in the right direction. The fronts had a classic Hi-Lo issue going on, which you have nicely almost eliminated. The remains are most visible in the slight dished profile of the RF. Heels were severely under run and toes were much too long, with both those issues having improved considerably. When assessing where you need to make adjustments in the trim, need to keep in mind that the white line is not a static marker. It is a seam created at the edge of the coffin bone where the sole and the wall connections meet and attach. It moves outward in all directions, esp forward when stretched by the pull from long toes. Therefore, don't be fooled by the position of the "old white line" when backing the toes. In order to get them far enough back to remove the lever forces on the laminar connections, you will need to horizontally back thru this old area but leave the sole height alone. If you were to rasp away some sole material in the toe area (DON'T do this), you would see that the white line keeps moving further back the deeper you go. The toes on the hind feet are much too long horizontally as well. It looks likely that the coffin bones in the rears are sitting either ground parallel or even negative plane, meaning that the front of the coffin bone is sitting higher than the back (the reverse of what should be happening). The heels are migrated quite far forward, which is a big part of reason why. Need to work on backing those toes and getting the heels moved back as well. The tricky part is going to be that you are probably at live sole plane in the heels right now so anything you do the bring them back will also lower an area that is already too low. It will take some finessing to lightly rasp the heels backward only a tiny bit on a regular basis while bringing the toes backward much harder and lightly lowering the front part of each foot at the same time. Boots and pads will be your friends thru this. Adding a wedge pad may be helpful. Any time he is tender footed, boots and pads should be used to make him more comfortable. If you don't, he will want to land toe-first, rather than heel first, which just exacerbates all the issues. Is the tail hair falling out or is it being broken off/rubbed out? How about his mane? If he is losing both mane and tail (not just scratching/rubbing them out) there is a possibility of a selenium overload as losing mane and tail hair is a symptom. However, this is a really nasty time of year for the bugs and sweaty/sticky butt areas that can begin to itch like crazy. To assess iron status you would need to get serum iron. TIBC and ferritin. I believe that would require sending blood to Kansas State University here in the US as I don't believe there is a lab in Canada that is able to do the equine ferritin (need Lorna or Jaini to confirm or set me straight on this aspect). As heat and transport time would be a factor, this can wait til a later date. Even if iron overload is an issue, mineral balancing will be the answer so not a priority at this time. __ Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut Jan 05, RI EC Support Team |
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Re: Testing a Horse for Insulin Resistance After Diet Change
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1359 Jodie,add this to your signature each time you post.
Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada |
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Re: Testing a Horse for Insulin Resistance After Diet Change
Jodie-hid@...
Hi have uploaded pictures of his feet from 2 years ago before going barefoot and pictures of his feet currently after going backwards for no apparent reason losing conavity, stretched white line and hoof sensitivity. Of course now that the conavity flattened out the the toes appear to be longer even though I am trimming back to the white line every time. He currently is extremely sensitive on all 4 feet especially over rocks which was not a problem 3 months ago. I also posted some body neck and sheath pictures of him for a better view of his over all condition. Also a tail shot as it is falling out. His skin ripples on his neck but he is not dehydrated so I'm assuming it's due to inflammation. Currently on the emergency diet for the last 7 days. Pulling blood on Tuesday. If there are any recommendations for add on to his bloodwork based on what is seen. I was wondering if checking his iron levels would be worth it as we live in a high iron area and he drinks well water that has a slight brown tinge to it. The water has never been tested so I'm not sure what the iron levels are like. Thank you, -- Terrace, BC, Canada Mojo - Photo Album |
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Re: Questions about hay analysis and mineral balance
Hi Kim, If you go to our Files here https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing and scroll down to Help With you will find people who will help you determine what your hay needs are. Lorna in Eastern Ontario,Canada |
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Questions about hay analysis and mineral balance
Kim Leitch
First, I want to thank LeeAnne for all her help with my case file upload! i can't upload files from my iPad, so my hay analysis is in photos. I think it looks pretty good, but I don't know what the correct amount of the various minerals are. My mare, Grits, is on 1.5 lbs. Triple Crown Lite, with 2 oz Flax seed, 8 grams Mg, 2400iu natural vitamin E, and 12 mg T-4. She has been on this exact regime for about 8 years. She does not need to lose weight; she suddenly became cresty during a lay off. The only changes I have made since she was dxed IR and had laminitis are that I took her off a Glucosamine based joint supplement, and she is on a dry lot with measured hay in slow feed nets. She is a very picky eater, and 2 oz is the most Flax seed I can get her to eat. If I even put a pinch of salt on her food, she will not touch it. She is an Idiopathic headshaker, that is the reason for the Mg level. My question is what other vitamins and minerals do I need to add for a balanced diet. Clover, SC Grits Case history https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kim%20and%20Grits
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Re: Reaction to Prascend
There are some reports of pergolide worsening existing dyskinesia (movement abnormalities) in humans on high dose so can't rule it out entirely but it's more likely you are dealing with two different problems. Even allowing for some contribution from the pergolide, she more likely has another problem since it is persisting long after the pergolide was stopped. Getting her on pergolide and APF support as Nancy described should help with her muscle, attitude and appetite. If neurological signs persist ask your vet for a work up.
-- Eleanor in PA EC Owner 2001 |
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IR and Inflammation
This is the latest study showing no link between obesity or IR and inflammation in horses: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27408335 Eleanor in PA EC Owner 2001 |
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Re: CA Trace and extra vitamins in Emergency Diet
Wanted also to add there is a good compilation of vit E info in the files of ECHorskeeping https://ecir.groups.io/g/Horsekeeping/files. Scroll down to find doc. Links within it don't work but good info nonetheless. |
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