Date   

Re: Dr. Kellon, thank you and heartfelt greetings to all. About Nutrition and More Answers

Lorna Cane
 

 
>Yes there is a proven natural nutritional solution to lower ACTH. 

Please fill us in on the details, Dr. Gross. 

 >So maybe this can provide some hope for whoever prefers drug- free alternatives. 

Again, facts please.


> My thanks for taking a thorough look at the site and for pointing out a typo.. 

Good to know 23.6mgs of Selenium in 2 oz. of your product  is a typo. Definitely toxic!
What is the actual amount in the product?

> I just got off the phone with one of our team members, an authority in the field of Veterinary Equine endocrinology who prefers not to have any name mentioned after I quoted a few sections in the messages. 

This usually signifies an inability/reluctance to stand behind comments made. So discouraging, Dr. Gross.


>Educate yourself. 
>Keep asking questions. 
>Be open to progress.
>Have hope. 
>Be kind to each other. 
>Negative energy might inhibit healing.

Totally agree.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf





Re: To Corrine and Jasper, RE Really Need Help

Nancy C
 

Hi Corrine

The only way yo know where you are for sure is to test.

Based on his complicated history and last round of testing, plus your reports of good appetite and foot comfort, I would likely stay where I was for the next few days at least, if not through to next blood draw, if he were here.

My boy Beau will exhibit a LOT more excitement when he feels well. Sometimes it takes me by surprise.

But I bow to Dr Kellon and Dr Clougher.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003


To learn more about the impact of fructan, understanding and diagnosing PPID and IR, nutrition, the foot, how it all comes together in the prevention of and rehab from laminitis, please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8. 13 hours of continuing education credit available.

Guest Speakers

 


---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :

Hi 

I really need to know if jasper's real reactive attitude and being so tense & spooky is from out of  control IR or pergolide induced. Do i need to go up again on pergolide? have appt for re testing first part of sept, so do i just wait on possibly going up on pergolide?? Wait to see where his numbers are in september??
 


Re: Dr. Kellon, thank you and heartfelt greetings to all. About Nutrition and More Answers

Nancy C
 

Dear Dr Gabi

As moderator, you would normally receive  Welcome message with protocols from me today. I will post it in full here so you can understand more.
****************
Dear Dr Gabi

Welcome to The Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance Group.

ECIR Group is not a chat group.  I’d like to provide you with background and posting protocol.  Here  a few salient points:

The Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance (ECIR) Group was started in 1999. It is the largest field trial database for PPID and IR in the world.

The Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance (ECIR) Group was started for disseminating information and sharing of experiences among owners and professionals dealing with Equine Cushing's Disease. In ensuing years, each horse and each member has contributed to the learning and the success of the ECIR group and to the health and longevity of many more horses.

The foundation of the group is keeping information firmly based in evidence-based science. Noted veterinarian Eleanor Kellon, VMD, joined the EC and IR Group in 2001 and became Co-Owner with founder Robin Siskel.  Veterinary professionals who wish to learn more are always welcome.

Because Insulin Resistance was and still is often mistaken for Cushing's Disease, the ECIR Group developed as a resource for both Cushing's Disease and Insulin Resistance. Over 12,000 international members, the ECIR Yahoo outreach group is arguably the largest field trial in the world and provides the latest research, medication information & dietary recommendations for horses with these conditions. Even universities do not and cannot compile and follow long term as many in depth case histories of PPID/IR horses as the ECIR Group.

In 2013 the Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc., an Arizona nonprofit corporation, was approved as a 501(c)3 public charity and can now receive tax deductible contributions and grants to support ongoing research, education and awareness of Equine Cushing's Disease and Insulin Resistance. 

The mission of the ECIR Group Inc. is to improve the welfare of equines with metabolic disorders via a unique interface between basic research and real-life clinical experience.  Prevention of laminitis is the ultimate goal. The ECIR Group serves the scientific community, practicing clinicians and owners by focusing on investigations most likely to quickly, immediately and significantly benefit the welfare of the horse.

The ECIR Group does not sell anything; members and volunteers contribute and pay it forward with review and interpretation of the latest research, education and case by case support. 

Additional background info may be had at www.ecirhorse.org

To keep the spam down, all new ECIR Group members are on moderated status. Alternative modalities have been discussed often in the 200,000+ archived messages. As stated in response to your first post, please provide scientific data as proof of your claims when posting.  Posting a case history example with all data would be  good place to start.  Please see ECIR group Case History info here:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/9%20Case%20Histories/

For the welfare of all member horses, we ask you to keep all discussions on Yahoo as a condition of membership. We ask all members to please sign their name and location and also add the date they joined the group. When you post again if you can add the date  along with your signature we'd appreciate it.  (See my signature below as example)
 
Please take a moment to read the NEW MEMBER packet. Check the START HERE Folder in the FILES section of the group home page.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/%201%20START%20HERE!!!/

Also attached is the ECIR Group Philosophy.

Please take a moment to look over the material. By taking a few minutes to read files provided it will help you get more quickly up to speed and allow you to interact with the group much more effectively.

Full posting protocol is below.

Many thanks for helping things run smoothly.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003


Why do herbal remedies not control PPID? To learn more about the understanding and diagnosing PPID and IR, nutrition, the foot, how it all comes together in the prevention of and rehab from laminitis, please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8. 13 hours of continuing education credit available.

http://www.nolaminitis.org/index.php/program-schedule/guest-speakers




****************************


This is a high volume list that can be difficult to follow. To help make this
easier for everyone, please follow the guidelines below:

1) Sign your posts with your first name, location, the date you joined. When
asking for advice, provide a link to your case history or photos. All this
information is important. It provides volunteers with the clues needed to get
you quality responses, local support, vendors, vets, hoof care, etc. in a timely
fashion.

2) Limit your signature to 3 or 4 lines.

3) Delete all but the part of the message you're replying to before posting.
Keep who is saying what clear by leaving the chevrons (>) in front of the text
you are answering then type your response in a new paragraph below.

4) When threads take off in new directions indicate the topic change in the
subject line. For example: NOW: New Subject (was Old Subject).

5) Don't re-post messages if they don't immediately appear on the group or go
unanswered. Allow roughly 48 hours before re-posting with the words "2nd Post"
in the subject line and simply provide the original message's number. Be
patient, it is not personal or a reflection on you in any way. With so many
posts some do get missed.

6) Feel free to take off-topic, horse-related discussions to our sister yahoo
groups. ECHorsekeeping provides a place for discussion related to non- metabolic
horses. Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise is the focus to allow members a
place to discuss nutrition for non- PPID/IR horses. General horse keeping
practices, lameness and other equine health issues that are not related to a
PPID/IR horse, alternative therapies and equine related philosophical debates
are also acceptable on ECHorsekeeping.

THE ECIR GROUPS:

ECHorsekeeping
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHorsekeeping/

ECHoof
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/

To access our searchable FILES section:
Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 


Re: Really Need Help

janieclougher@...
 


Dr. Gross, I must respectfully disagree with most of the statements in your post. 3 mg of pergolide is most certainly not "close to the toxic dose".  The "side effects" you are describing are the same as those seen with uncontrolled PPID. The proper treatment of PPID is this: Use the correct dose of pergolide (as Dr. Kellon says, it is the dose that controls the ACTH), plus appropriate diet and hoof care. One can use chaste tree berry as an adjunct, but it will not control ACTH. Non-drug control of PPID is not possible.

There is very little information on pergolide toxicity (none in horses); however, when used in humans some people were taking 30 mg per day.  This of course cannot be totally extrapolated to equine use, as species differ from each other, but it is worth noting. Pergolide is still used for Parkinson's Disease in Europe (brand name Celance).  Below is a link to information from use in North America, and a quote about overdosage.

************************************************************************************************************

http://www.drugs.com/pro/pergolide.html

Overdosage

There is no clinical experience with massive overdosage. The largest overdose involved a young hospitalized adult patient who was not being treated with Pergolide mesylate but who intentionally took 60 mg of the drug. He experienced vomiting, hypotension, and agitation. Another patient receiving a daily dosage of 7 mg of Pergolide mesylate unintentionally took 19 mg/day for 3 days, after which his vital signs were normal but he experienced severe hallucinations. Within 36 hours of resumption of the prescribed dosage level, the hallucinations stopped. One patient unintentionally took 14 mg/day for 23 days instead of her prescribed 1.4 mg/day dosage. She experienced severe involuntary movements and tingling in her arms and legs. Another patient who inadvertently received 7 mg instead of the prescribed 0.7 mg experienced palpitations, hypotension, and ventricular extrasystoles. The highest total daily dose (prescribed for several patients with refractory Parkinson’s disease) has exceeded 30 mg. (Bold and italics are mine, JC)

Symptoms

Animal studies indicate that the manifestations of overdosage in man might include nausea, vomiting, convulsions, decreased blood pressure, and CNS stimulation. The oral median lethal doses in mice and rats were 54 and 15 mg/kg respectively.

****************************************************************************************************

Pergolide, like any drug, can have adverse effects.  The most common adverse effect in horses is called the "Pergolide Veil", and consists of lethargy and lack of appetite.  This can often be completely avoided by titrating the dose up in an appropriate manner, and using adaptogens at the beginning of dosing.  There are a small number of horses who have shown CNS effects, with excitement and loss of co-ordination.  Unfortunately for these horses, pergolide is not an option, and the owners must use less-effective treatments such as cyproheptadine and chaste tree berry (and these are sometimes completely ineffective) Of the thousands of horses on this list, there are only 2 or 3 whose owners have reported these serious CNS effects.


Incontrolled PPID, on the other hand, can have very serious consequences. These include laminitis, suppressed immune system resulting in recurrent infections and skin isssues, muscle loss, lethargy, over-all weight loss, polyuria and polydipsia (all documented); and just feeling generally crappy (anecdotal)  The risk to benefit equation of using pergolide seems to me to be very clear: pergolide side effects are often transitory and minimal; uncontrolled PPID "side effects" are inevitable and can be devastating.


My 34 year-old Arab gelding is on 17 mg of pergolide.  His ACTH is controlled, he is full of beans, and he runs around like a yearling.  The same is true of Maggie, on 8 mg and 30 years old.  Gypsy, the baby of the group at 21, is on 3 mg and certainly not showing any signs of "toxicity". You can find many more examples in the Pergolide Database:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/database

Jasper is a very complicated case, due to concomitant Lyme disease, poor farrier practices, ulcers, and, yes, drug sensitivities, as well as PPID. Blaming his current behaviour on the 3 mg dose of pergolide is not logical.

In short, I would much rather deal with the side effects of pergolide if and when they come up, than put my horse through the torture of uncontrolled PPID.

Dr. Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/ groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini% 20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/






Re: To Corrine and Jasper, RE Really Need Help

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

I really need to know if jasper's real reactive attitude and being so tense & spooky is from out of  control IR or pergolide induced. Do i need to go up again on pergolide? have appt for re testing first part of sept, so do i just wait on possibly going up on pergolide?? Wait to see where his numbers are in september?? 


Guess i'am after some anwser's that maybe can't be anwsered? just want input on what is possibly causing him to be so reactive,spooky and tense. Kerry & Dr Kellon no need to worry about me and jasper i have enough knowledge about the protocols of this group, not to stray from it. Good grief we'v gotten this far i don't want to go backwards in progress. 

Thanks for any input,
Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014


Dr. Kellon, thank you and heartfelt greetings to all. About Nutrition and More Answers

Dr Gabi Gross <drgross@...>
 

Dr. Kellon thank you for your compassionate message. May I respond to all from a place of Love and Light. I would like to express my heartfelt apologies as it was not my intention to stir up the group. While I was trying to type a response, various replies have grown to a level of attack under the belt-line. Of course you would not say things like that if you knew who I am. But I realize that is the feedback for my premature comment so I am being put in my place. Very humbling. Maybe we will meet face to face some day at an event and maybe then we can shake hands and laugh about how our compassion took off with us .. a startled bolting horse. First of all, my compliments and respect to this community for being responsible, caring and open-minded horse owners. 

Dr. Kellon, I bow to your accomplishments and authority with the same respect and gratitude I owe my colleges and Equine professionals in the field. Our research and accomplishments are the result of teamwork among horse owners, technicians, nutritionists and licensed Veterinarians. Everyone here agrees that your dedicated mission in education and nutrition for horse owners is highly appreciated and needed. For many years, your contributions have enlightened especially me and I highly respect your writings. It is tough to work as a pioneer and front runner in a field which is not integrated to the extent needed by conventional Veterinary Medical education (Nutrition). This said, no need for concern. Thank you for pointing out our website. 

Yes there is a proven natural nutritional solution to lower ACTH. Nevertheless, I feel my well meant suggestion to the approach, which our team of researchers and Veterinarians have developed was inappropriate here. We are working with respected and well known peers in the field on publishing our validated results and I am sure you know one or two of them. The solution will be introduced to the market via practicing Veterinarians who are open to offer alternatives to Pergolide. So maybe this can provide some hope for whoever prefers drug- free alternatives. As the world goes, progress and solutions are coming. History shows that there is always fear based resistance. For example, when Galileo stated the world was round and not a disk? Today it is a well accepted fact but at the time Galileo was condemned, isolated from society and found guilty of heresy  (opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted). I am not interested to be burnt at the nowadays equivalent of a medieval stake, for a well meant but seemingly inappropriate comment. I will therefore refrain from any further participation and may unsubscribe to avoid confusion. Therefore no reason for attack, fear or concern, which I am reading from the disciplinary and disqualifying attempts to put us back in the box. My thanks for taking a thorough look at the site and for pointing out a typo... I will let the Equolution management know. Gratitude to you on their behalf. We are a team of caring Scientists and Veterinarians. 

Dr. Kellon, for answers on your remaining questions, please be referred to upcoming publications via peer-reviewed sources. As for the hair analysis, it seems that Uckele throws an essential part of the cell analysis report away. I therefore suggest contacting your lab for more information on the validity of minerals in reflection to endocrine information. Plenty of scientific literature is available also. 

To everybody: Lets remember the common goal we all have, even if we might disagree how to get there. For the Love of our horses. I just got off the phone with one of our team members, an authority in the field of Veterinary Equine endocrinology who prefers not to have any name mentioned after I quoted a few sections in the messages.  But I got a suggestion what to add to the message : "To remind everyone, especially the Equine Health experts, to revisit their Veterinary books and study the normal physiological reasons why ACTH can be elevated. To read the small print on the lab reports from Cornell and Davis about ACTH. That the reliable measurement of plasma cortisol is extremely difficult to nearly impossible. This often leads to a "diagnosis" of the cause for ACTH elevation based on guessing and assumptions and horses are put on Prascend (Pergolide That the only truly reliable test to "diagnose" Cushings is the Dexamethasone Suppression Test and that this test is rarely performed anymore due to the assumed risks involved. But simply measuring the ACTH and Cortisol will not reveal the true cause for ACTH elevation. Brings up the question whether all the horses "diagnosed" with Cushings truly have it or if their ACTH might be elevated naturally due to 1) stress 2) cortisol levels LOWER than needed 3) Endocrine aging. 

Take away message: 
Thank you for the feedback. 
Keep up the good work. 
Educate yourself. 
Keep asking questions. 
Be open to progress.
Have hope. 
Be kind to each other. 
Negative energy might inhibit healing.

Warmly and with gratitude, have a fabulous day ! 
Good luck to everyone in this group. My heart goes out to you. 

Dr. Gabi, currently in New York (on world-wide mission) 
Please excuse typos as I am writing this with an iPad in my lap at the airport.

Disclaimer: The author of this message exercises the right of first amendment. The content of this message is for educational purposes only. It is not intended to diagnose, treat or cure any disease in your horse. It does not prescribe a drug, medicine, appliance, application or treatment of whatever nature for the prevention, cure or relief of a wound, fracture, bodily injury or disease. If you have need for Veterinary treatment, please contact your licensed Veterinarian.

 

Sent from my iPad


On Aug 21, 2015, at 5:02 AM, drkellon@... [EquineCushings] wrote:

 

By suggesting you have an effective alternative to pergolide for lowering ACTH in a PPID horse you are violating a statement within the liability release you make your own customers sign

http://equolution.com/pdfs/Equolution%20Liability%20Release.pdf

Specifically:

".....  Equolution  LLC  

representative  does  not  engage  in  the  practice  of  Veterinary  medicine  
and  in  particular  
does  NOT  diagnose  disease  or  prescribe  a  drug,  medicine,  appliance,  application,  or  
treatment  of  whatever  nature  for  the  prevention,  cure  or  relief  of  a  wound,  fractur
e,  bodily  i
njury,  or  disease  
of  the  animal,  
does  NOT  administer  a  drug,  medicine,  appliance,  application,  or  treatment  of  whatever  
nature  for  the  prevention,  cure,  or  relief  of  a  wound,  fracture,  bodily  i
njury,  or  disease  of  the  animal......"

In this group we rely heavily on nutrition and are always looking for more answers for these horses. However, I must ask you to provide scientific proof of your claims, including the following for a start:

1. That hair mineral can reflect hormonal status
2.  That there is an effective alternative treatment for PPID outside of the pergolide family of medications.

Also please read posting guidelines sent to you when you joined,including about trimming posts and that contacting members privately off list is strictly prohibited.

P.S.  A pergolide dose of 3 mg is not toxic or near toxic.  We have many much higher with no signs of toxicity.  As you surely must know, side effects and toxicity are not the same thing.  Side effects are idiosyncratic. Toxicity is an inevitable harmful effect to anyone taking a sufficiently high dose.  Several of the side effects you list are actually signs of insufficient PPID control.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


---In EquineCushings@..., <drgross@...> wrote :

 If you are interested in an effective drug-free alternative let me know. 
 




Re: princess hoof.5 day after maggots princess/ sue

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sue,

I can't help with the maggot part of your questions so will let those with experience handle that.

Agree totally with Nancy regarding the trim, booting, wrapping. I wouldn't advise removing any sole right now as there is too much going on and she can use the extra protection. There appears to be enough access for anything that may want to accumulate to drain out. Boots are a very moist, closed, damp environment so would rather see her feet bandaged and wrapped, using duct tape for extra protection. You need to be able to access those toes daily for now to check for any signs of infection, and to be able to trim, so also wouldn't recommend shoes of any type.

Seeing the latest xrays and trim will be really helpful in making suggestions on where the trim needs to go from here. Send them directly to me if you have any issues getting them to post and I'll get them up for you.

You are doing a fantastic job.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: To Corrine and Jasper, RE Really Need Help

Lorna Cane
 


> If you are interested in an effective drug-free alternative let me know. 

Hi Dr. Gross,
I have visited your web site,and been reading with interest about the products you sell.
I'll keep my comments to myself about their analyses,but feel I need to ask a question about your Daily GI Combo.
The section on Vitamins and Minerals for this product lists 23.6 mg of Selenium, per 2 oz dose . 
Surely this is a typo?

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf




Re: To Corrine and Jasper, RE Really Need Help

 

Dr Gross:

....."3 mg is close to a toxic dose for a horse and you might be either doing harm to him or to yourself by the way he is acting".....

I am appalled that a professional (veterinary?) would espouse such a scare tactic to a horse-owner in crisis. The implication that an owner is unintentionally harming his/her horse by an unfounded statement lacking *any* citation is perverse.

....."Below is a list of Pergolide (=Prascend) side effects I have seen in horses ... Anxiety, overreativity, depression, gastro-intestinal upset, no appetite, lots of urination, salt-craving. ".....

the above clinical symptoms are all widely chronicled signs of uncontrolled Insulin Resistance and/or PPID. Therefore, its highly likely the horses whom you observed these signs were not on high enough doses of pergolide.

....." If you are interested in an effective drug-free alternative let me know. ".....

Pergolide is the only scientifically proven medical treatment for diagnosed PPID. This is also commonly known by most veterinary professionals.

....." If this was my horse and he would show me these side effects which seem much higher than the benefits (if any) I would reduce the dose back to where it was and seek alternatives. "....

Thank goodness this horse is not in your care, as this last statement solidifies my suspicions that you do not fully understand the physiopathology of PPID (aka Cushings) nor the mechanisms of pergolide therapy and its well-documented markers for successful treatment. The fact that you laud yourself as a 'retired veterinarian' using blatant scare tactics to attract new clientele also truly frightens me.
Kerry Isherwood, LVT-VTS(ECC)
Licensed Veterinary Technician, NY
Emergency & Critical Care Specialist (nationally board-certified)

Joined ECIR Sept 2014


Sent from my iPhone


Re: princess hoof.5 day after maggots princess/ sue

quatzie_baby@...
 

Hello Sue

Here are a few links on maggot therapy, may help give you some ideas or contacts with questions going forward. I sure wish you luck with Princess and a good healthy hoof going forward.  
Your on the right path to fighting this hoof infection..  I am following your progress with your mare. 

Jeannie 
Oregon 
NRC 2010 


Got Maggots? Maggot Debridement Therapy Daisy Haven Farm Style | EasyCare


 http://www.hoofcare.com/article_pdf/hoofcaremaggotsmorrison.pdf


Re: Really Need Help

corrine haffner
 

Hi Dr Gabi 

He is not depressed and he is eating well,so no i wont reduce his pergolide i'v been following this groups protocols and they work. So could someone else give me input on jasper being tense and very reactive to things that don't normally get him upset.  

I'am not looking for alternative treatments,thank you any way but i'll stick to what has been proven.Don't mean to sound rude not my intentions.


Re: princess hoof.5 day after maggots princess/ sue

Nancy C
 

Hi Sue

You want to make sure you have the open area kept clean.  I used saline with betadine to flush out via  60 cc syringe, put a light layer of gauze over the open area, then wrapped.  The gauze will tell you about drainage and potentially if you need to continue with another treatment. For the first week at least, I would look at the feet daily.

I would agree with slowly woring on the heels but not so slow that you do not keep up with growth. Keep looking for flexing of the fetlock so that you hopefully begin to see the bony column sinking into the back half of the foot as is should as it is loaded with the weight of the horse.  This could take a very long time and will definitely take flexibility in the back half of her foot to accept the load. She may need body work on her lower leg tendons and uppper muscles.

Have we seen current pics of her sole?  Even if she has infection, I would be very reluctant to remove any sole until she is not walking on her toes. If she still has infection there, you may be able to lift some of the sole or open it up slightly to let the next round of maggots in if needed. Your March photos show a large opening so if the same, it is likely not needed.

Once she is moving better she will exfoliate that sole, sometimes with a little help, but  IMO I don't think you are there yet.

I understand why you would not want to put a boot on those feet. I would not put her in any shoe, especially if she is still walking on her toes.  Keeping her out of shoes will allow you to rasp daily. Pads and vet wrap, with a small amount of duct tape on the bottom should work.

If she were here, I would be looking for end of infection by observing the gauze, continued slow steps to better fetlock movement, new growth of hoof wall.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003


 To learn more about the impact of fructan, understanding and diagnosing PPID and IR, nutrition, the foot, how it all comes together in the prevention of and rehab from laminitis, please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8. 13 hours of continuing education credit available. http://www.nolaminitis.org/index.php/program-schedule/2015-conference-schedule


Re: princess hoof.5 day after maggots princess/ sue

Bonnie Stockton
 

Hi Sue, I am a bare foot trimmer and think what you are doing is wonderful and very cool, I love the posts and pictures. I haven't had to deal personally with what your are doing but I have had to deal with other issues that are not so extreme and I hope that I can share a little with you. I would not be in a hurry to remove sole or change heal height right at this point, take little steps and see how she reacts to each small step. If you want to take the clogs off be ready to have good soft boots for her. I suggest soft ride boots, I know of horses that have foundered and love them. I would not put anything that is permanent over an active healing site yet, she will need air and you will need access to her whole hoof to keep it clean and be able to treat anything that may come up. Keep up the good work, don't be in a hurry, time a patience will pay off.
Bonnie 
Sonoma, Ca      


Re: To Corrine and Jasper, RE Really Need Help

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

By suggesting you have an effective alternative to pergolide for lowering ACTH in a PPID horse you are violating a statement within the liability release you make your own customers sign

http://equolution.com/pdfs/Equolution%20Liability%20Release.pdf

Specifically:

".....  Equolution  LLC  
representative  does  not  engage  in  the  practice  of  Veterinary  medicine  
and  in  particular  
does  NOT  diagnose  disease  or  prescribe  a  drug,  medicine,  appliance,  application,  or  
treatment  of  whatever  nature  for  the  prevention,  cure  or  relief  of  a  wound,  fractur
e,  bodily  i
njury,  or  disease  
of  the  animal,  
does  NOT  administer  a  drug,  medicine,  appliance,  application,  or  treatment  of  whatever  
nature  for  the  prevention,  cure,  or  relief  of  a  wound,  fracture,  bodily  i
njury,  or  disease  of  the  animal......"

In this group we rely heavily on nutrition and are always looking for more answers for these horses. However, I must ask you to provide scientific proof of your claims, including the following for a start:

1. That hair mineral can reflect hormonal status
2.  That there is an effective alternative treatment for PPID outside of the pergolide family of medications.

Also please read posting guidelines sent to you when you joined,including about trimming posts and that contacting members privately off list is strictly prohibited.

P.S.  A pergolide dose of 3 mg is not toxic or near toxic.  We have many much higher with no signs of toxicity.  As you surely must know, side effects and toxicity are not the same thing.  Side effects are idiosyncratic. Toxicity is an inevitable harmful effect to anyone taking a sufficiently high dose.  Several of the side effects you list are actually signs of insufficient PPID control.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


---In EquineCushings@..., <drgross@...> wrote :

 If you are interested in an effective drug-free alternative let me know. 
 


To Corrine and Jasper, RE Really Need Help

Dr Gabi Gross <drgross@...>
 

Corrine, may I ask you.. if the Pergolide despite increased dosage is not helping to get the ACTH down, did anyone ever consider that Pergolide / Prascend might not be the right thing to do for this horse ?
3 mg is close to a toxic dose for a horse and you might be either doing harm to him or to yourself by the way he is acting around you. I am so sorry about what you are going through. 
Below is a list of Pergolide (=Prascend) side effects I have seen in horses and they are congruent with the list reported in people. If you are interested in an effective drug-free alternative let me know. 
Anxiety, overreativity, depression, gastro-intestinal upset, no appetite, lots of urination, salt-craving. 
If this was my horse and he would show me these side effects which seem much higher than the benefits (if any) I would reduce the dose back to where it was and seek alternatives. 

 
Warmly and stay safe
Dr. Gabi Gross, Ph.D.
Equine Veterinarian (Germany 1987)
PhD. in Pharmacology and Brain Research
Metabolic Disorders and Sport Horse Performance
Currently in CA, working worldwide.  
 


On Aug 20, 2015, at 10:25 AM, sassafrass45@... [EquineCushings] wrote:

 

Hi 


So jasper is up to 3mg of pergolide has been since 8-16-2015 he's eating good yet, getting him switched over to ODTB cubes. So diet is balanced and not cause of issues. 


Problem, his attitude is very reactive, tense explodes at stuff that never bothered him before. Brought him in this morning to doctor feet he spooked at grass blowing around  he bolted, just about run me over in the process. 


He just way over reactive and tense, he is usually laid back easy going horse. He gets all nervy when tied up big eyed tense like somethings out to get him. Doing his feet is not fun i can't trust him not to blowup as in rear fly backwards,this is totally not like him. So what the heck has made my calm easy going horse so uptight?? Have rabbits in barn if they rattle a feed dish jasper about comes out of his skin,he's lived with these rabbits for last 4 years,so not new.


Is the pergolide doing this to him now he's on higher dose?? that's only change med wise.


I have to be on guard while i handle him never know whats going to set him off,i'am not scared i just can't afford to get hurt... This all started 8-18-2015.


Corrine & Jasper

MN 4/2014

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Corrine%20and%20Jasper




Re: Lucerne

takarri@...
 

Hi Sandie,

Here are some links to previous messages. I just put Kellon as the author and alfalfa as the subject in the advanced search. We call it lucerne here. 

The take home message is that it "'may" be ok, but if you have a horse that is sensitive or borderline laminitic, then you need to weigh up the risks. Is it worth it?

Spur, my appy, can tolerate a little- as long as his IR is controlled. I've only ever used  a sprinkle as a taste tempter when required. The ponies could not tolerate it at all.

-- https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/44556

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/44574

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/68576

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/80824

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/87071

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/88990

Pauline & Spur

Sth West Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas

 



---In EquineCushings@..., <sandiegharries@...> wrote :

Hi guys. I just can't find the info related to Lucerne and its risks for IR horses. Do you know where it is?

Sandie g harries
Victoria, Australia
June 2015


princess hoof.5 day after maggots princess/ sue

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

hello everyone,
the maggot worked pretty well.. I did was the hoof out with clean trax. you can see some kinda white milky stuff in the hoof. that's the clean trax..
I hope I got all the maggots out.. I'm going the check it daily and change the vet wrap ect...
how do you know if you need more maggots?
what would be the best thing to do with the hoof, packing it , iodine it? 
the blacksmith is going to come out and look at it today and we are going to do another trim and I want him to take off the clogs.. her heels are longer then I want and I and him to take some of the false sole off. there was an infection in between the false sole and live sole. but the live sole is a little thin but I think she will get better faster if that was all taken off.. y
would like to hear everyone's feed back on that.. I also would like to sill have some kind of a shoe on her but glue on and would like it to be plastic.. I don't feel that the boots give her as much support/ protection.. she has a problem keeping her boots on and don't want her to lose one and have something happen... that's just my luck,,,, The next photos I'm going to post will be her new trim and x-rays.. I might need help with the x-rays... if nothing else goes wrong..
sincerely,
Sue & princess
oh 6/11


Really Need Help

corrine haffner
 

Hi 


So jasper is up to 3mg of pergolide has been since 8-16-2015 he's eating good yet, getting him switched over to ODTB cubes. So diet is balanced and not cause of issues. 


Problem, his attitude is very reactive, tense explodes at stuff that never bothered him before. Brought him in this morning to doctor feet he spooked at grass blowing around  he bolted, just about run me over in the process. 


He just way over reactive and tense, he is usually laid back easy going horse. He gets all nervy when tied up big eyed tense like somethings out to get him. Doing his feet is not fun i can't trust him not to blowup as in rear fly backwards,this is totally not like him. So what the heck has made my calm easy going horse so uptight?? Have rabbits in barn if they rattle a feed dish jasper about comes out of his skin,he's lived with these rabbits for last 4 years,so not new.


Is the pergolide doing this to him now he's on higher dose?? that's only change med wise.


I have to be on guard while i handle him never know whats going to set him off,i'am not scared i just can't afford to get hurt... This all started 8-18-2015.


Corrine & Jasper

MN 4/2014

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Corrine%20and%20Jasper


Re: Ford: New hoof photos

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 


Excellent news, Fran!

Lavinia, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Ford%20Case%20History/



ECHistory8

 


Re: LeeAnne

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

HI Donna, 
I just emailed you so you know how to reach me.  No worries.  You are posting right where you need to post about your confusion over Ulysses' IR and PPID diagnosis/status.  


Don't forget to add your link to your case history:

- ​LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist 03/2004

 

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