Date   

Re: Stiff back leg

 

I hope I am doing this correctly.  I selected 'reply to group' but don't see the post I'm replying to to clip, if necessary.

Last fall, Logo, my mid 20's gelding had a very dramatic downturn with what I have to surmise was a seasonal ACTH rise.  I had never experienced this before so I followed all sorts of other leads before realizing his symptoms were an exaggerated version of what I'd seen before he'd been diagnosed with PPID a number of years earlier.  

I was concerned that I not fall into the same trap this year and put together a lengthy post, asking how one determines a target dose for Pergolide.  As time went on and I honed my post, I realized that this was not a question anyone else could answer for me.  I would have to figure it out myself, based on the wealth of questions and replies I've read here, including the recent discussion on the difference between 1 mg of Prascend and 1 mg of compounded Pergolide.

The recent question about the stiff hind leg brings to mind an observation I made last year and I wonder if there's a connection.  Logo was diagnosed with shivers years before he was determined to have PPID.  He did well as a competitive dressage horse without a hitch under saddle.  Last fall, when he was in such sad shape, his hind leg hitches were so bad there were days I wondered if I could get him out of his stall.  When left free in the indoor, he occasionally stumbled and fell.  As his ACTH levels dropped again, the hitch became less noticeable and now he looks great.  This syndrome used to be considered metabolic but more recent studies indicate the problem may lie in the cerebellum.  I'm not sure what the relationship might be, perhaps a response to elevated cortisol?  I have not been able to interest my neurologist husband in the problem (yet) but I'm not convinced that the observations are coincidental.  





Re: New to Group need some help

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Briania -

To reduce the dose of pergolide, empty the capsule into a known amount of water - say 8 cc's = 8 mls. You can get 10 or 12 ml dosing syringes from the vet or the drug store. Draw up 8 mls of water with your syringe and put it into a glass or similar (shot glass works well).  Then mix well; draw up 2 mls of the mixture and there is your .25 mg of pergolide.  Cover the shot glass with saran wrap and keep it in the fridge.  Next day, mix well and draw up another 2 mls.

It is great you have a vet appointment.  Be very sure to get a full chemistry blood panel, CBC, and Lyme multiplex test.  You can wait on the ACTH if you like.

APF is sold by a number of outlets, including Valley Vet:

https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_search_results.html?gas=apf

Or you can get it direct from the manufacturer, Auburn Labs:

http://www.auburnlabs.com

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC 09
ECIR mod/support
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

 


 






,


Re: New to Group need some help

briania long
 

Hi Jaini &Lavinia

Oh my have a lot to change for tango,think he would eat beet pulp doesn't seem picky,so start soaking hay for him in cold water its an hour right? hot water a 1/2 hour? Where do I find APF? 

The pergolide is 1 mg capsules so not sure how to go to 0.25 with what I have any ideas? Have vet apt for next week found one. So should wait to do blood test for ACTH for a month after he settles in?
Thank you,
brianialong
International Fall MN
Joined 9-28-2015










,


Re: Hello new to the group...need help

Nicole Cammarano
 

Hi
Ok...I will see if my feed store carries the TC or the Omega Horseshine...if not they can easily get it for me! On a bright note he ate the Speedibeet with his meds, and vitamin E and remission!! I put a small handful of Progressive Nutritions Grass Diet Balancer mixed in and he willingly gobbled it up!! I will go to the feed store later to get some TC Lite and hopefully the flax!! Thanks!
Michele ...I had to body clip him today because it's humid and muggy and he was really sweating


Re: Hello new to the group...need help

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Michele,

Because you have access to Triple Crown Products locally, your feed store may already carry (or can easily get) Triple Crown's Omega Max, which is ground, stabilized flax. It is one of the most economical sources:

http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/products/supplements/triple-crown-omega-max-omega-3-oils-horse-health/

HorseTech's Nutra-Flax is another option:

http://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/skin-coat/nutraflax

Omega Fields Horseshine, which may also be available at your local feed store:

https://www.omegafields.com/equine-products/omega-horseshine-28.html

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



Re: Mov-ease

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sandralyn,

Good question.

Nope - you can start this at the full dose immediately. Supplements do not need to be tapered on like food does.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



Re: New to Group need some help

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Briania,

One other thing I would add to Jaini's info for you is that it would be best not to test ACTH/insulin/glucose/leptin until Tango has been with you for at least a month. With all the upheaval in his life it is likely that those blood parameters will be impacted by all the changes and that will affect the blood work. If the last ACTH was run soon after he was in his last home, that time-frame could also have contributed to that result being a tad outside the normal values.

Make the diet changes, allow him to settle down, have a vet see him to make sure he isn't ill from the home switches/trailering/stress - possibly have CBC/chem profiles done first. As he was so debilitated when he was rescued it is possible he has contracted some type of virus/bacteria that could be contributing to his lethargy, depression in addition to possible "pergolide veil" from the pergolide (Prascend).

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team





,


Re: New to Group need some help

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Briania-

Huge kudos to you for trying to help this guy.  I do think the first order of the day is to get a vet out to him; we can't really give you much info on his depression and lethargy without more information, which you won't have until a vet sees him.

However - I am not going to say "Take him off the Pergolide (Prascend), because without seeing him, that would be irresponsible.  I will for sure say: "Reduce the dose to 0.25 mg daily; and increase the dose by 0.25 mg every week"   If he is experiencing the Pergolide Veil, this will help.

Also, get some APF or APF Pro on board - this adaptogen can help with stress of all kinds.

In the meantime, treat his diet as if he is IR until proven otherwise.You should start this before the blood work.  Feed hay that is below 10% ESC + starch; if your hay isn't tested, you can soak it for 1 hour in cold water, or 30 minutes in hot water, drain the water where the horses can't get at it (as it is yummy and sweet).  Will he eat rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp?  How about soy hull pellets?  Other safe foods are Nuzu Stabul 1, Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes, LMF low starch formulations, Triple Crown Safe Starch Forage (not the kibbles). Link to the Temporary Emergency Diet is here:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/%203%20%20CORE%20DIET%2C%20ANALYSIS%2C%20NUTRITIONAL%20NEEDS/Basic%20Nutritional%20Needs/

He may well be suffering from ulcers (in fact, I would bet money on that)

Try giving him a human antacid formula of calcium or calcium and magnesium, 6 ounces 4 times daily (just in case you don't have enough to do)  If he responds well to that, then he is a candidate for ulcer treatment with GastroGard. Here is a link to a couple of files with ulcer information:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Ulcers/
 
The case history forms are found at EC History 8.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info

 You are already a member, so go to the files, and there are folders giving detailed instructions on how to fill out a case history.  Go to the Files section:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/%20%201-INSTRUCTIONS%20AND%20CH%20TEMPLATE/

Basically, you download the form to your computer, fill it out to the best of your ability, and save it to your computer. Then create a folder with your name on it. To do this (again in  the files section) click on the wee purple box with a picture of a folder containing a plus sign, found at the upper right of the page.  Create and name your folder.  Then click on your own folder in the list of files; when you are in there, click on the long purple box containing an up arrow and the word "Upload". That should take you to a list of documents on your own computer, so you can select the case history you have filled out and saved.

Hope that helps a little - I know it is a lot to take on board.

Synopsis:

Find vet.
Reduce Pergolide dose.
Give APF
Temporary Emergency Diet.
Check for ulcers with antacid treatment.
Have a crack at the case history.

And don't forget to breathe!








,


Re: Problem Deleting on ECHistory3

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Ferne,

I just deleted the old history for you so you should be all set to upload the new one. If for some reason the new one won't upload to ECH3, then you'll need to make a file in ECHistory8.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Problem Deleting on ECHistory3

ferne fedeli
 

I updated my Magic's history record from ECHistory 3 and then when I went to delete the old record, so I could then add the updated one, I couldn't get it to delete.  When I click on the little garbage can that says Delete, nothing happens.  Seems I had the same thing happen a few months ago too.  I think someone deleted it for me, but didn't remember who it was... 

--
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010


Re: New to Group need some help

 

Briania,

Oh boy, you & I will have to swap stories: I have two rescues, one was pulled from New Holland's killpen at age 3. He was largely unrideable bc of dangerous behavioral issues for *years* (a real Jekyll & Hyde). And dangerous as in a trip to the ER for concussion last Feb (my helmet split in two when I hit the ground... :(( and Im no beginner rider

After $1,000s in diagnostics and Rxs to no avail, by a fluke chance I ran bloodwork and discovered he was Insulin Resistant. That was Dec, 2014. Using this group's guidelines of DDET (Diagnosis, Diet, Exercise, and Trim) this dangerous, throwaway horse has made a complete 180-degree turnaround in these few short months. In fact, just this week I jumped on bareback and had the best ride on him ever! This was the horse that jigged, plunged, bucked, kicked boards off the arena fence, and lathered himself into a frenzy within minutes of mounting. It literally took me a year to get him to walk under tack...no joke.

I cannot say for certain you will have as dramatic a turnaround as I have but you are doing an extremely kind and noble endeavor by giving your horse a second chance. You will find a wealth of information here and an unbelieveably good-hearted group of horse-people that truly want the best for your horse.

Keep your chin up, read read read, and we are always here for help!

Best of luck,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: New to Group need some help

briania long
 

Hi

Trying to figure out the case history thing, doesn't help I'am computer challenged, can't figure out where to find the case history form,sorry if i'am kinda stupid here. Been reading all the info I got yesterday,hard to figure out all that needs to be done.

Then trying to figure out tangos history,only had him a week so only know what i'v been told.

What can be done to help tango with his depression and loss of appetite??

He was rescued by last owner #8 from the kill pen at an auction barn,he hadn't had his teeth done for 4 years had ulceration on his cheeks from shape teeth. Tango had or has a bucking issue reason he's been passed around from owner to owner, one of last owners starved him down,and locked him up in a dark barn that was 2 feet high in manure. The guy then sold him to a horse trader, where he ended up in the kill pen bound for slaughter.

I'am trying to find a vet that will come out to where I live to get blood work. Asked last owner if blood work done was done with tango fasting she said no. Vet went to her place to do the blood work so no he wasn't hauled.

Been reading about diet from what I read diet needs to be at or below 10% ESC + Starch? so do I need to change his diet,now before blood work? or wait till after blood work and results are in?

see I put wrong date on joining yesterday, put correct one today.

Thank you,
brianialong
International Fall MN
Joined 9-28-2015










,


Re: Hair Growth--Uncoltrolled Cushing's or Seasonal Rise

 

Laura writes:

....."He looks good except for my trainer saying how she wants to fill in his *pointy* butt. Those of who know Cushing's know what that is all about...What do you say about that?".....

Hmm, without a photo Im only guessing you must mean a loss in topline muscle, which judicious exercise (slow & steady) would likely help. My own PPID mare is round -- everywhere! -- so Im not sure how to relate :)) but daily exercise is always good as long as soundness is assured.

....."Also, he had shoes last week. There was some separation on the sides of his hooves.".....

Interesting. By chance were you able to take photos of what you are describing? Is his farriery following the trimming guidelines of our group?
Best of luck,

Kerry in NY
Sept 14


Re: Stiff back leg

 

....."Now since the pergolide he has improved and walks normally unless weight is on him. Vet said it had to do with cushings and arthritis. in hip and hock.".....


Before my mare was diagnosed with PPID and severe IR, she felt terrible under saddle, stiff & stumbling so badly that she went to her knees on occasion. My long-time trainer mentioned that as an older horse (19yrs old at the time) that was competing heavily, that it may be time to consider joint injections, etc. Long story short, once I got her IR & PPID under good control, she felt wonderful again under saddle. We had a fantastic winter & spring this year without any joint injections.
However, my mare is still a geriatric at the end of the day and Ive noticed over this summer she is slowing down in other ways. She is not quite so aggressive to the jumps anymore, her stamina is less than it was, and she's quite content going for a walking ride now instead of pulling for a brisk trot/canter/buck when I first get on. She owes me absolutely nothing, so as much as I'd love to try a few small shows again I can tell she is aging and my time left with her now revolves around her needs more than mine. She still gets daily exercise for her IR control (and general health & happiness), but instead of a 15 mile hunter pace, now its a 30-minute walk and a lavish grooming, or its a handwalk around my hilly property, or maybe a few circles in the backyard with my 6yo son squealing in delight.

I know my mare's IR & PPID are both well-controlled via bloodwork and bc I know her behavior so well when she isnt feeling well. So what I have is what I have: an old mare, relatively healthy, who is semi-retired. There are still many ways I can spend quality time with my old girl even if riding isnt the primary vocation any longer (and who knows, maybe my son will want to do a few little walk-trot shows...a mother can hope!)

My advice is listen to your horse, read everything you can about PPID, give the best love & researched care you can, and cherish every day you have left.

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Hello new to the group...need help

Maggie
 


>>i will try an attach a photo of the hay analysis but in case it doesn't work it appears that the ESC of my low sugar Timothy hay is 6.5.....

Hi Michele,

Attachments are not allowed on the main ECIR list.  Please join ECH8 and you can upload attachments there.  You will need to join that group, but it should not take long to approved and then you will be able to fill out a case history on Joey and also upload your hay analysis and lab work.  Once you are approved, go the the "files" section and create a folder.  Then follow the instructions for filling out a case history.  Here's a link for you to get to ECH8 so that you can join:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info  Let us know if you have any trouble and we can help you.

Also, please see my response to you from your original post labelled "IR and now Cushings in my senior pony" on September 24th.  Your post here:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/196878 

My reply here:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/196888   Sorry that I addressed my response to "Nicole" but I thought that was your name.

I know that you have been working with Jaini, but I just want to bring your attention to the very important fact that Joey also had a diagnosis of chronic Lyme, for which he was treated with 30 days of Doxy.  Chronic Lyme can be a bit tricky to treat.  Please read the links to Lavinia's messages that are in my first message to you.  And here are a couple more:

German Horse muffins are not appropriate for an IR horse/pony.  Here's the list of ingredients:  Each muffin is a decadent blend of sweet feed and molasses plus corn, oats, bran, wheat flour, cornstarch, soybean meal, dehydrated alfalfa meal, vitamins and more.
Yikes!!!  You want to avoid just about every ingredient listed.  The stud muffins contain:  grains such as wheat, oats, barley, and corn....  Again, ingredients you want to avoid.  I could not find the sugar free or low sugar version on their website.  Can you point us to that?

The Cocosoya can be used in small amounts (an ounce or two) as a taste tempter.  Want to use the smallest amount that will get Joey to eat, but you should start first with trying to taper on to the Prascend to avoid the pergolide veil and the give him the APF.  

Alfalfa makes some horses tender footed, so would want to stick with the plain Speedibeet or non-molasses beet pulp shreds.  Make sure you rinse it thoroughly, soak it, and then rinse it again.  This removes the surface contamination (iron) and the remaining sugar.

Please remember to sign  your name, date of joining (9/11/2015) and general location each time you post.  Also, please take a minute before hitting "send" to trim your post of the repeat information, leaving just a snippet of the previous post if necessary.  Thanks so much!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA



Re: Hello new to the group...need help

 

Hi Nicole,

To help speed things up for helping you & your pony, please list the starch % from your hay analysis.

The ESC and starch %s are the two most important values this group uses to determine if hay sugars are appropriate.

Providing the starch will help move things along, until you can get your analysis uploaded.

Also, please sign all posts with name (first name is fine), your general location (state, region, or country), and date of joining. See mine as example:

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014

PS...All members should also add a link of their Case History with their signature (having said that, alas, mine are not...bad bad bad!! but will be updated asap & included in my future posts, in this spot)!


Re: Hello new to the group...need help

Nicole Cammarano
 

Hello...let me try this again...i will try an attach a photo of the hay analysis but in case it doesn't work it appears that the ESC of my low sugar Timothy hay is 6.5 as sampled basis and 7.0 dry matter basis...Hope this is the info you are looking for! I'm guessing Joey weighs between 500-600lbs...I will put a weight tape on him when I head up to feed shortly! Is there a specific amount of Speedibeet he should have per meal?? Or just enough to mix his meds/supplements? What I have on hand are 2 little sample bags that contain 4.5 ounces sb and it says to add 2.5 cups water. I have Cocasoya Oil would that work for Joey...I believe that's a combo of Flax, Soy and Coconut oils ?? So i just want to get everything straight...he will get his Metformin, Isoxsuprine, and Thyroid medicine along with Remission, and Health E for now mixed in with some Speedibeet and TC Lite along with his 1 Prascend in his German Horse Muffin and stop the Previcox?? Or should he or can he stay on 1/2 57mg tablet?? ...and ditch the Heiro, Msm, and For Love of The Horse herbs


FW: Unable to deliver your message

Nicole Cammarano
 


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to <equinecushings@...>.

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Hello again
I hope I'm responding in the appropriate place...I will try and attach a picture of the hay analysis of my low sugar hay ...if it doesn't work ...it appears that the ESC is 6.5 as sampled basis and 7.0 dry matter basis?? I hope that's the info you are looking for...as to Joey's weight...I will put a weight tape on him when I head up to feed shortly...I'm estimating between 500-600lbs?? As for the Speedibeet...is there a certain amount he should have?? I have 2 little sample bags that I believe contain 4.5ounces...it says to add 2.5 cups of water ...haven't used it in awhile so I forget what an appropriate amount would be ...especially for the pony...I used to give it to my horses ...so if im getting all this straight ...I will ditch the Heiro, MSM, For Love Of The Horse Herbs...I will feed him Speedibeet with a little TC Lite if need be with his Metformin, Isoxsuprine, and Thyroid Medicine...I will stop the previcox and just give him his Prascend in his German Horse Muffin Treat ...Stud Muffin makes a sugar free or rather low sugar muffin that I will pick up tomorrow when I get a bag of Speedibeet...I do also have Fibrebeet on hand as well...but that is a combo of Speedibeet plus alfalfa ...would that be ok for him??

On Sep 28, 2015, 5:46:18 PM, janieclougher@... [EquineCushings] wrote:

Hi, and welcome to the list.

<<<<...I'm trying to fill out a case history/info Questionnaire for my senior IR pony who now also has Cushings....>>>>>>

Excellent! The case history goes a long way towards getting us the right information to help us help you to aid your pony.

You are going to get a lot of information thrown at you. Don't panic - we were all overwhelmed at the beginning of our IR/PPID journey. Just take it one day at a time. The list philosophy is Diagnosis, Diet, Exercise and Trim.

You already have a diagnosis of IR and PPID.

I am going to start with the Prascend, because that is the most immediate concern. It is very common for horses to experience the "Pergolide Veil", when started abruptly on Prascend (which is pergolide) at the full 1 mg dose. The way to avoid this is to start with 0.25 mg daily for 4 days, and increase by .25 mg every 4 days. So, days 1-4 he gets 0.25 mg. Days 5-8 he gets 0.5 mg. Days 9-12 he gets 0.75 mg. On day 13 he will be up to his full dose of 1 mg.

Go back to 0.5 mg (half a tablet), and see if he perks up in a day or two. If not, then go right back to 0.25 mg, and add in APF.

http://www.auburnlabs.com/

This product actually has science and studies behind it, not just uninformed opinion, and it works really well. It is an adaptogen, very useful in times of stress.

One shouldn't break the Prascend tablets into quarters (according to the manufacturers), so dissolve 1/2 tablet in a known amount of water, and give half of that, reserving the other half for the next day.

You have fallen into the trap that most of us fall into: tossing everything including the kitchen sink in an effort to help our horses and ponies. This is one time where "Less is more" definitely applies!

Other than the herbs and supplements, is he on any medication besides Prascend at the moment?

The best thing right now is to start him on the Temporary Emergency Diet: If his timothy hay has been tested as below 10% ESC + starch, then no need to soak it. Add in 1/2 teaspoon of magnesium oxide; ( or 1 dose of Remission, since you have that on hand, and it will provide 6 grams of magnesium.); 1,000 mg of Vitamin E in capsules containing soy oil (depending on your pony's weight - the dose is 1,000 mg per 500 lbs); 2 oz of ground, stabilized flax seed; and 1/2 tbspn of salt.

Diet is supremely important, in some ways more for what is not fed: no pasture, sweet feeds, oats/grain, carrots, apples, iron-containing supplements.

TC Senior is much to high in starch for an IR pony, even in small amounts. As a carrier for the Remission, Vtiamin E, flax and salt you can use rinsed/soaked/rinsed non-molasses beet pulp; or soy hull pellets; or Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes. Add a snifter of TC Lite as a taste tempter, or use Nuzu Stabul 1.

Ditto Pennfield Figergized Omega: 6% starch and 10% sugars; plus the Omega 6 to Omega3 ratio is reversed, so it is pro-inflammatory.

http://www.nutrenaworld.com/products/horses/pennfield/fibergized-omega/index.jsp

Now, about the supplements:

Heiro provides only 57mg of magnesium per dose, plus a bunch of stuff that not only is not needed, but could be harmful. However, since the amounts of these products isn't listed, it is impossible to know. The greatest damage that Heiro does is on the website, where it says you can get your insulin-resistant horse back on pasture by using this product. Balderdash. It is snake oil, no more, no less.

Remission is fine, but it much less expensive to use plain magnesium oxide - should be around $30 for a 50 lb bag at the feed store. Niacin shouldn't be used in IR horses, but 40 mg is probably not enough to make a difference. Similarly, there is not enough of the other ingredients to put in a gnat's eye, so it works out to be just expensive magnesium.

All of the For the Love of the Horse products are pretty much snake oil, and there are too many inaccuracies on the website to list here. One example is that MMP's are not implicated in endocrine laminitis, but rather in feed-room break-in grain overload, which is a very different thing. So, even if the MMP Stop would reduce production of MMP (I highly doubt this), it won't do anything for laminitis due to IR or Cushings. I applaud your desire to do everything to help your pony. Tossing out the Heiro and the FLOTH herbs is a good start.

MSM can interfere with copper absorption, so don't use that until all the diet and mineral balancing is in place, and then use with caution. (ie, add extra copper)

Progressive Nutritions ProAdd Ultimate ration balancer: This is mostly just a protein supplement. Too much protein can cause insulin to increase, so I very much doubt your pony needs this. I would stop using it for the meantime.

http://www.prognutrition.com/pn/products/supplements/proadd-ultimate/index.jsp

Phew! The short version of all of this is: Take him off pasture. Don't feed him anything except his hay, Vitamin E, salt, stabilized flax, and Remission (for the magnesium), in a suitable carrier sucha as rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp. (plus his Prascend and APF, of course) Once you get him doing well on this temporary emergency diet and the Prascend, we can talk about balancing the minerals to your hay.

The trim of the foot is short toe, low heel (but not under-run), balanced to the structures inside the hoof. It is great to have x-rays to confirm a balanced trim.

Exercise: only as able. Never force a laminitic horse to move; laminitic horses should not be ridden until 1/2 at least of a new, well-connected foot has grown in, which will be 6 months to a year.

Ask any and all questions! Oh, yes - and sign your posts with your name, date of joining, and general location so we know what resources you have in your neighbourhood.



---In EquineCushings@..., wrote :

Hello
I'm new to the group ...I'm trying to fill out a case history/info Questionnaire for my senior IR pony who now also has Cushings....


Re: Hello new to the group...need help

Nicole Cammarano
 

I forgot to mention that I have Cocasoya Oil on hand would that be appropriate for little Joey??


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Sep 29, 2015, 9:12:17 AM, Nicole Cammarano wrote:
Hello again
I hope I'm responding in the appropriate place...I will try and attach a picture of the hay analysis of my low sugar hay ...if it doesn't work ...it appears that the ESC is 6.5 as sampled basis and 7.0 dry matter basis?? I hope that's the info you are looking for...as to Joey's weight...I will put a weight tape on him when I head up to feed shortly...I'm estimating between 500-600lbs?? As for the Speedibeet...is there a certain amount he should have?? I have 2 little sample bags that I believe contain 4.5ounces...it says to add 2.5 cups of water ...haven't used it in awhile so I forget what an appropriate amount would be ...especially for the pony...I used to give it to my horses ...so if im getting all this straight ...I will ditch the Heiro, MSM, For Love Of The Horse Herbs...I will feed him Speedibeet with a little TC Lite if need be with his Metformin, Isoxsuprine, and Thyroid Medicine...I will stop the previcox and just give him his Prascend in his German Horse Muffin Treat ...Stud Muffin makes a sugar free or rather low sugar muffin that I will pick up tomorrow when I get a bag of Speedibeet...I do also have Fibrebeet on hand as well...but that is a combo of Speedibeet plus alfalfa ...would that be ok for him??

On Sep 28, 2015, 5:46:18 PM, janieclougher@... [EquineCushings] wrote:

Hi, and welcome to the list.

<<<<...I'm trying to fill out a case history/info Questionnaire for my senior IR pony who now also has Cushings....>>>>>>

Excellent! The case history goes a long way towards getting us the right information to help us help you to aid your pony.

You are going to get a lot of information thrown at you. Don't panic - we were all overwhelmed at the beginning of our IR/PPID journey. Just take it one day at a time. The list philosophy is Diagnosis, Diet, Exercise and Trim.

You already have a diagnosis of IR and PPID.

I am going to start with the Prascend, because that is the most immediate concern. It is very common for horses to experience the "Pergolide Veil", when started abruptly on Prascend (which is pergolide) at the full 1 mg dose. The way to avoid this is to start with 0.25 mg daily for 4 days, and increase by .25 mg every 4 days. So, days 1-4 he gets 0.25 mg. Days 5-8 he gets 0.5 mg. Days 9-12 he gets 0.75 mg. On day 13 he will be up to his full dose of 1 mg.

Go back to 0.5 mg (half a tablet), and see if he perks up in a day or two. If not, then go right back to 0.25 mg, and add in APF.

http://www.auburnlabs.com/

This product actually has science and studies behind it, not just uninformed opinion, and it works really well. It is an adaptogen, very useful in times of stress.

One shouldn't break the Prascend tablets into quarters (according to the manufacturers), so dissolve 1/2 tablet in a known amount of water, and give half of that, reserving the other half for the next day.

You have fallen into the trap that most of us fall into: tossing everything including the kitchen sink in an effort to help our horses and ponies. This is one time where "Less is more" definitely applies!

Other than the herbs and supplements, is he on any medication besides Prascend at the moment?

The best thing right now is to start him on the Temporary Emergency Diet: If his timothy hay has been tested as below 10% ESC + starch, then no need to soak it. Add in 1/2 teaspoon of magnesium oxide; ( or 1 dose of Remission, since you have that on hand, and it will provide 6 grams of magnesium.); 1,000 mg of Vitamin E in capsules containing soy oil (depending on your pony's weight - the dose is 1,000 mg per 500 lbs); 2 oz of ground, stabilized flax seed; and 1/2 tbspn of salt.

Diet is supremely important, in some ways more for what is not fed: no pasture, sweet feeds, oats/grain, carrots, apples, iron-containing supplements.

TC Senior is much to high in starch for an IR pony, even in small amounts. As a carrier for the Remission, Vtiamin E, flax and salt you can use rinsed/soaked/rinsed non-molasses beet pulp; or soy hull pellets; or Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes. Add a snifter of TC Lite as a taste tempter, or use Nuzu Stabul 1.

Ditto Pennfield Figergized Omega: 6% starch and 10% sugars; plus the Omega 6 to Omega3 ratio is reversed, so it is pro-inflammatory.

http://www.nutrenaworld.com/products/horses/pennfield/fibergized-omega/index.jsp

Now, about the supplements:

Heiro provides only 57mg of magnesium per dose, plus a bunch of stuff that not only is not needed, but could be harmful. However, since the amounts of these products isn't listed, it is impossible to know. The greatest damage that Heiro does is on the website, where it says you can get your insulin-resistant horse back on pasture by using this product. Balderdash. It is snake oil, no more, no less.

Remission is fine, but it much less expensive to use plain magnesium oxide - should be around $30 for a 50 lb bag at the feed store. Niacin shouldn't be used in IR horses, but 40 mg is probably not enough to make a difference. Similarly, there is not enough of the other ingredients to put in a gnat's eye, so it works out to be just expensive magnesium.

All of the For the Love of the Horse products are pretty much snake oil, and there are too many inaccuracies on the website to list here. One example is that MMP's are not implicated in endocrine laminitis, but rather in feed-room break-in grain overload, which is a very different thing. So, even if the MMP Stop would reduce production of MMP (I highly doubt this), it won't do anything for laminitis due to IR or Cushings. I applaud your desire to do everything to help your pony. Tossing out the Heiro and the FLOTH herbs is a good start.

MSM can interfere with copper absorption, so don't use that until all the diet and mineral balancing is in place, and then use with caution. (ie, add extra copper)

Progressive Nutritions ProAdd Ultimate ration balancer: This is mostly just a protein supplement. Too much protein can cause insulin to increase, so I very much doubt your pony needs this. I would stop using it for the meantime.

http://www.prognutrition.com/pn/products/supplements/proadd-ultimate/index.jsp

Phew! The short version of all of this is: Take him off pasture. Don't feed him anything except his hay, Vitamin E, salt, stabilized flax, and Remission (for the magnesium), in a suitable carrier sucha as rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp. (plus his Prascend and APF, of course) Once you get him doing well on this temporary emergency diet and the Prascend, we can talk about balancing the minerals to your hay.

The trim of the foot is short toe, low heel (but not under-run), balanced to the structures inside the hoof. It is great to have x-rays to confirm a balanced trim.

Exercise: only as able. Never force a laminitic horse to move; laminitic horses should not be ridden until 1/2 at least of a new, well-connected foot has grown in, which will be 6 months to a year.

Ask any and all questions! Oh, yes - and sign your posts with your name, date of joining, and general location so we know what resources you have in your neighbourhood.



---In EquineCushings@..., wrote :

Hello
I'm new to the group ...I'm trying to fill out a case history/info Questionnaire for my senior IR pony who now also has Cushings....


Re: Mov-ease

Sandy Faust
 

I have ordered.   Do you think this product should be added gradually.   It says to do 3 grams am and pm for 10 days and then 3 grams once per day.   Should I start with a small dose and work my way up to loading dose like one would if adding a new food, or what ?   Don't want it affecting his feet since he is an exfoundered horse.


Sandralyn

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