Date   

Re: Cushings & sedatives (dormasedan)

corrine haffner
 

I gave you a post number in last message type that number in the little box that says message # then hit the little deal next to it. That will take you to that message. 

Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014


Re: Cushings & sedatives (dormasedan)

jamsler707@...
 

OK I know I am stupid but I don't see what you linked.

Thanks,

Julia & Luxy in PA

11/2011


Re: Cushings & sedatives (dormasedan)

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

Here's a post i found in Archives on dormasedan  might help anwser your question post # 181920.

Hope this helps,
Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

ECHistory8

 


Cushings & sedatives (dormasedan)

jamsler707@...
 

I thought I had seen in some info on here that Cushing's horses can't be given sedatives.  Now I can't find where that was, OR did I imagine it?  I would like to have the chiropractor come back to use the chiropractic adjustment tool on Luxy to see if it helps with her quiding her hay.  I found him in April & when he did only one or 2 trigger points her head really bounced around, involuntarily.  It scared her I think because she got REALLY uncontrollable.  Vet said I could use Dormasedan(sp) since we know she has problem, the chiro doesn't need to see any more reaction.  (We then did  Spencer & only his lips moved a tad on one of the trigger points & now I can touch his nose & lips without getting a big reaction.  His first fall here he had a run in with a porcupine, let me pull them with no problem, but since he had excessively sensitive nose.)


Anyhow, I would really like to try the chiro again but will need to sedate her, can I?


I hope to attach my case file but I realize I forgot to update & add that  on Sept. 3rd, 2015 1 mg Pergolide mayselate Gourmeds from Wedgewood Pharm.  & that I got her diarrhea cleared up in January 2015 by putting her on BS Hay Stretcher & Sentinal LS till spring.

Thank-you,


Julia & Luxy in PA

11/2011

ECHistory8

 


Re: Jasper's Case History is UPDATED

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

made rim pads for both boots seems to help him, not a cure but relieves some of his discomfort.Last feeding of ODTB cube at 8pm is gone by 11 pm so 9 hours with nothing for him to eat. I gave him 7 more pounds last night,cant do that every night. 

Not sure what i'll do come really cold weather, he and his buddy last winter went through a 900 lb round bale in 8 days.


Thanks,

Corrine & Jasper 

MN 4/2014

ECHistory8


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Aleve / Naproxen Sodium dosage

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <partnernaturally@...> wrote :


I dont understand this. I saw a post with a horse weight at 700 lbs. and a dosage of 14 pills that are 220mg.

= = = = = = = =


700 lbs = 318 kg = 3180 mg target dose


14 x 220 = 3080 mg - close enough because splitting these pills to get 1/2 is really difficult.


Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001



Aleve / Naproxen Sodium dosage

Sharon Manning
 

Hello,

I searching for dosage info I come up with: 10mg/kg once or twice a day per BW.


I dont understand this. I saw a post with a horse weight at 700 lbs. and a dosage of 14 pills that are 220mg.


Can someone explain this math for me please? Sorry to be so dumb. 


I have a older mare I wanted to give a dose to to see if it helped with the trimmer as she has such a hard time and he does too!!

thanks

Sharon 

E TN

2005


Re: Dutch and Prascend

Nancy C
 

While it is very frustrating to experience, yes, many have overcome the picky eaters issue and./or the pergolide veil.  You could have both.

I guessing you have seen the Picky Eaters checklist in the files, but repost link here for others who are reading. Scroll down once inside the folder.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/8%20Pulling%20it%20Together/

 


You'd want regular APF.

Pretty please, don't forget to sign your posts!

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003



---In EquineCushings@..., <bigelow.rebecca@...> wrote :I'm very frustrated. Has no one overcome this issue?


Re: Dutch and Prascend

bigelow.rebecca
 

Thanks Nancy, I agree with everything you said. The only thing I haven't tried is the APF which I will order right away. Which one of their formulations would be the best? The goal with that is to help him get over the depressed appetite? If Ihid them in Equine Senior I'm sure he would eat them.  I've tried 3 different appropriate feeds, added various flavors and Cocosoya but nothing will entice him to eat them and none of them were sufficiently interesting to him to get him to overlook the supplements. I have hay that is under the recommended sugar starch content and have gone through the exercise of balancing his diet but he won't eat it if he's on Prascend. I'm very frustrated. Has no one overcome this issue?


Re: IR or PPID symptoms?

Nancy C
 

Hi Suzanne

Apologies.  Found that you had put the message number in the subject line and went to your requested message.

I can't get the CH open because it is in pages.  If you convert it to a .pdf we will all be able to get it open.

Looking at your labs 2014 to 2015, you did a good job moving in the right direction.


I think I know the thread of which you speak from Dr Kellon.  My take is it and other posts were written by Dr Kellon in response to folks who were foregoing diet and using pergolide as a control IR.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/42876

There is absolutely no solid evidence at all to suggest that
pergolide is of use in treatment of insulin resistance related to
genetic predisposition, obesity, diet or any other nonpituitary cause.


Note the reference to" nonpituitary cause".

So....To answer your question, it could be IR driven by PPID as well as diet.  This time of year PPID would be my first  suspicion but getting access to green stuff just makes it worse.

Hopefully things are not getting worse foot-wise since you've written. If he were here, I would speak to my vet to either test right now - like tomorrow - or increase pergolide, then retest in three weeks.

I'd also make sure to get my farrier out for  trim to hopefully realign or tighten the hoof capsule around the coffin bone during this laminitic episode

FWIW - I'm right there with you.  The more I learn the more I realize how much  further I have yet to go.

HTH

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: Insulin resistance (IR) is the failure of insulin sensitive cells to respond to “normal” levels of insulin. 

Please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference, Georgetown TX, November 6-8, 2015
Early bird expires on Wednesday!   NO Laminitis!



---In EquineCushings@..., <suzannemansolilli@...> wrote :




Do I wait out this laminitic episode now that his diet is getting back on track? The vet's scheduled to come on the 30th to pull blood for labs.  Or do I increase Prascend and delay the blood work another week?


I've learned so much through this group, but I'm afraid I've got a long way to go. 


Eternally thankful,


SuzanneM & Monty

Western Colorado — July 2014

Photo Album: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1794323561

CH: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/SuzanneM%20%26%20Monty/



Re: Re Post Message196663: IR or PPID Symptoms?

Suzanne Mansolilli
 

Hi everyone,


Over the past month I've noticed some physical and behavioral changes in Monty. In an attempt at staying ahead of the seasonal rise, I raised his Prascend dose of 1mg 2x/day to 2mg once/day beginning of August and then to 2.5mg 1x/day mid-August.


Symptoms included:

--thicker, harder crest (Seems huge, or am I only paranoid?)

--a week or so of hyper-reactive behavior

--super-dandruffy tail

--chunky dandruff flakes at dorsal coronet band on both fronts. Directly above the flaky area are patches of super-hard, scaly skin still intact under hair

--and today, heat in hooves, digital pulses in all four of 40 bpm.  Walking gingerly.


My first thought was to raise his dose again, but was not sure if these are symptoms of IR or PPID/seasonal rise?  I went to the files to refresh my memory and read a post by Dr Kellon entitled "Insulin Resistance and Pergolide", detailing why pergolide is not a treatment for IR.   (I would include a link here, but don't know how, but a file seach will bring it up)


Is it uncontrolled IR?  Could be because:

--This summer his diet has NOT been as tight as I would have hoped for.  Starting in May, he'd refused his mineral mix no matter the carrier. He ate only low s/s hay.  I've finally concocted a mix of pelleted minerals that I'm adding one at a time to flax, Vit E, salt and APF. It's been a slow process. 

--He's been sound enough to ride and exercise this past summer, but it's been nearly impossible to prevent him from snatching grass at times.  

--Just inspected the far reaches of his dry lot to find grass nibbled down to the nub!  Un-noticeable until I checked it out closely this past weekend.  Dug out every blade and weed.

--He's also just switched to a new hay. Same ESC as previous, but higher in protein.


Or are these symptoms of seasonal rise?


Do I wait out this laminitic episode now that his diet is getting back on track? The vet's scheduled to come on the 30th to pull blood for labs.  Or do I increase Prascend and delay the blood work another week?


I've learned so much through this group, but I'm afraid I've got a long way to go. 


Eternally thankful,


SuzanneM & Monty

Western Colorado — July 2014

Photo Album: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1794323561

CH: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/SuzanneM%20%26%20Monty/



Re: Reposting(2nd try): ACTH Results Back

Nancy C
 

Hi Stephanie

I'm sorry I thought this was answered.

How much to go up and if it is needed seems to be the eternal question this time of year.  You're doing a good job monitoring his blood work.  Are you keeping track of symptoms as well? Both of these areas are really important when deciding how much to go up.

If you are seeing additional symptoms, then I would dose until they subside.  My symptoms keys are crest, smegma, goopy eyes, loss of topline, but there are others. I would probably start with raising 1 mg in 0.5 increments, but it could take more.  Or less.

If in the funds retest after three  weeks of reaching your target dose.

Because he has had renal failure, thrombosis, laminitis and rotation would want to know you are working closely with your current vet and make sure you get his/her input.

Recommend you reacquaint yourself with the seasonal rise and pergolide docs here

Seasonal Rise

  Pergolide

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003


Learn more at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8.
Guest Speakers

 






---In EquineCushings@..., <KWPNDRESSAGE@...> wrote :

Hi All,


I am thinking that his Pergolide should be raised to prevent any farther rise/laminitis problems during the seasonal rise? How much would you raise it? 


Thank you so much!

Stephanie & King

Oregon

Oct 2014

ECHistory8



Re: Dutch and Prascend

Nancy C
 

Hi Rebecca

If Dutch's diet consumption is affected by pergolide veil, then the use of APF might help him.

I did not read all your back posts., however, did go over your Case History .   With past history of laminitis, I would be very concerned about his July insulin and leptin pointing to diet influenced IR, as well as ACTH control with symptoms of Pot belly, top line changes  and your ACTH report for June at "high normal".  It sounds like you and your vet are concerned too.

Places to look for correction are obviously his hay ESC&Starch and making sure his ACTH is under control.

I know you board.  Correct minerals is hugely important.  Using OTC supps may help but not optimally. Given a choice I'd go with Uckele until you can figure out how to more tightly balance his diet.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

FACT: Minerals have direct effect on Insulin Resistance (IR) or its consequences.

Learn more at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8.
Guest Speakers

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <bigelow.rebecca@...> wrote :


Rebecca and Dutch

Elk Grove, CA     2009

Case History:https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Rebecca%20and%20Dutch/

 



Re: Jasper's Case History is UPDATED

Nancy C
 

Relieving pressure where you suspect pain can work.  It can be trial and error.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference, Georgetown TX, November 6-8, 2015

http://nolaminitis.org/index.php/program-schedule/guest-speakers



---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :

So would making a rim pad to go inside his boots keep pressure off his sore soles??


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1622081710


Re: Metabarol for IR?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Good questions.

No, it doesn't really answer my question because I can't tell if they looked at change per se or % change and don't know how wide the spread was/standard deviation in the two groups.  I can't tell if they compared numerical drop in the two groups, % drop in the two groups, or the P value numerical or % drop in each group.  In other words, did they do a P value for both groups comparing levels before and after treatment, finding that only the supplement group had a significant change or did they compare the changes in supplemented vs not supplemented to get the P value.

It would also be nice to have all the data and see what each individual horse did.

The InCheck Insulin Guarantee conditions also mentioned 10%  or less NSC and the levothyroxine and metformin. That's a lot of potential changes besides the Metabolol.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001






Re: Was THANK YOU Now APF Pro

jamsler707@...
 

Would APF Pro help my Luxy with her allergies?  
 
I can’t put my CH link since I don’t have my password with me & can’t remember it, but we are in 8.
 
Thank-you,
Julia & Luxy in PA
11/2011


Reposting(2nd try): ACTH Results Back

Stephanie Stout
 

Hi All,


I would love your advice please - I just got King's ACTH & Insulin results back from Cornell. He is on 4.5mg Pergolide(1x per day) from Pet Health all spring/summer with a very strict low S/S diet. His ACTH on his test in December was 30.2 pg/mL(reference range of 9-35) and his newest results from 9/14/15 is 49.2 mg/mL. He foundered in all 4 feet last September/October as I had no idea he was Cushings and IR until he went into kidney failure first, and then really severe laminitis a couple weeks after. He has a 9 degree rotation in both fronts, and a couple degree rotation in both hinds. 


I am thinking that his Pergolide should be raised to prevent any farther rise/laminitis problems during the seasonal rise? How much would you raise it? 


Thank you so much!

Stephanie & King

Oregon

Oct 2014

ECHistory8



Re: Metabarol for IR?

 

Does this from the abstract of the oral presentation answer your question about P value?

"There was a significant decrease in serum leptin (P=0.012) and triglycerides(P=0.010) for the resveratrol treated group when compared to the placebo after the six weeks. Further, there was a significant (P=0.021) decrease in insulin (mU/L) levels post an oral glucose sugar test at the six weeks post treatment compared to week 0 in the resveratrol treated group compared to the placebo group. There was a significant decrease (P=0.034) in serum tumor necrosis factor- alpha (TNFa) in the resveratrol treated EMS horses compared to the placebo. There was no significant (P=0.805) difference in the percentage of lymphocytes producing TNFa protein measured by flow cytometry between the resveratrol and placebo treated horses, nor was there a difference in gene expression of IL-6 (P=40.651) or interferon-gamma (IFNg) (P=40.416) in these cultures."

I dug a bit deeper about diet. I checked the website's InCheck Insulin Guarantee Program:

"During the 45 days of continuous daily Metabarol administration, owners must conform with the recommendations of Frank and Tadros 2013    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/evj.12169/full regarding the management of horses with insulin dysregulation. Specifically, the horse should be exercised as much as is possible, grain and "sweet feed" should be eliminated from the diet, and hay intake should be limited to 1 to 1.5% of the current body weight of the horse. These practices reduce obesity and are necessary for the successful management of horses with insulin dysregulation." So to get the benefits of Metabarol, I'd have to reduce Satra's daily hay ration from 17 ½ lbs (1.75% of current weight) to 15 ¾ lbs (1.5% of current weight) to 10 ½ lbs (1% of current weight) regardless of present body condition score.

I submitted these questions to Equithrive: 
Re: this study linked under PROOF:  https://equithrive.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/AdamsESSJEVSProceedings2013.pdf
Were the diets of the two groups identical before & during the study? Were there diet changes during the study? What time of year? Were Metformin or levothyroxine administered? 

I also asked how much exercise the study horses were given before and during the experiment.

Cass for Satra
Sonoma County, Calif Oct. '12

---In EquineCushings@..., <drkellon@...> wrote :

I would have some questions, especially given how expensive this is.

- It appears from the graph on this page that the control group had a similar % drop in insulin.  What was the p value for the control group's change?

Proof - Equithrive
Was the diet analyzed?

Were the diets of the two groups identical before starting the experiment?  During the experiment?

Were there any diet changes during the experiment?

Were Metformin or levothyroxine also used?

Also, while there was a decrease in inflammatory cytokine TNFalpha, there was a much larger increase in IL-6 in the resveratrol group.

Eleanor in PA


Dutch and Prascend

bigelow.rebecca
 

Hi all,

I’m posting to see if anyone else has experienced the same continuing problems with diet and Prascend that we are having.


We’ve been trying to get Dutch on a 1 mg dose and get him to eat his balanced supplements. I’ve tried any number of different combinations and products with no success. For various reasons he has been taken off or has been on reduced dosages since July. As long as he’s not taking over 1/4th tablet I can usually get him to eat some combination of vitamins and minerals.  As soon as I increase the dose, he stops and it doesn’t seem to matter how long I wait.   He always eats his hay just fine.


 I  communicated with Lloyd’s to get a sample of Target IR and am going to see if I can get a sample of Uckele’s product,  U’Balance Foundation.  If he’ll eat either of these is this a reasonable compromise to treat his IR symptoms?


 Also, are some horses are just more sensitive to Prascend than others?   I know with certain human medicines what’s therapeutic for one person is way over or under for another person. Is it possible that Dutch is just more sensitive to the drug than your average horse?  If this is true might 1/4th to ½ pill be enough to deal with his symptoms.  I plan on testing his ACTH again but not until he’s been on a reasonable dose for long enough to expect a change.  He did shed his heavy summer coat since we started so something is working.  


I posted pictures of his body and his feet in EC History 8 Photo section under the album Rebecca and Dutch body condition and feet. I believe his History is up to date also. Any help would be appreciated.


Rebecca and Dutch

Elk Grove, CA     2009

Case History:https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Rebecca%20and%20Dutch/

 



Re: Jasper's Case History is UPDATED

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


---In EquineCushings@..., <lesley.fraser@...> wrote :

<<You can get positive Osp A results when Bb spirochetes come back out of the cyst forms that they morphed into to hide from antibiotics or the immune system.....>>

That's a theory, but unproven as yet.  Could see the same thing with a new reinfection.  Problem is that doesn't explain the size of the titer or the pattern with the other titers.

<<when Jasper reacts powerfully to the IV oxytet, is it to the antibiotic itself or could a herxheimer reaction be involved? >>

Reactions that occur during the infusion can't be Jarisch-Herxheimer because the "herx" reaction is an inflammatory cascade caused by the death of organisms and takes at least a few hours to develop.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

91061 - 91080 of 283957