Date   

Re: Jasper's Case History is UPDATED

corrine haffner
 


Hi nancy

I read the link you gave me on lyme dease,so from what i understand is OSPC being positive that means early infection?? If OSPF is positive that means chronic lyme dease am i getting this right?? How long do i treat him this round of doxy 4 months again?? or longer then 4 months?? 

How long before i see a change in excessive drinking & peeing ? how long to keep up with numotizine? no abscesses now for 4 days,just bounding digital pulses & no heat. He seems more uncomfortable booted then barefoot,so not sure whats up with that now??   


Re: Jasper's Case History is UPDATED

corrine haffner
 

Hi nancy

Yes he's still on 4 scoops of PQ  i'am seeing no positive changes since him being on 6 mg of pergolide. Still have excessive peeing & drinking. Will have new pics of feet today did some more trimming need to know if i'am headed in right direction on feet. I keep a journal so i don't lose sight of things and i do read it every day.

How long before i see a change in excessive drinking & peeing ? how long to keep up with numotizine? no abscesses now for 4 days,just bounding digital pulses & no heat. He seems more uncomfortable booted then barefoot,so not sure whats up with that now??


Re: Jasper's Case History is UPDATED

Nancy C
 

Hi Corrine

This is a busy time of year as you can see.  Thanks for your patience and updating your case history.

The below link to help interpret the lyme test states in part:

Positive values for antibodies to OspA are typically observed in vaccinated animals. In horses, however, antibodies to OspA also seem to rise during infection.


https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/test/list.aspx?Species=7&Test_Name=lyme&TstTyp=&WebDisc=

 

Tick disease can make laminitis much more stubborn and painful.  Also add to the fact his ACTH is also not controlled and he was/is abssesing. 

It's hard work and you have been at this all summer. Have been there many times myself so know how exhausting this is.

I'm getting an invalid path to your CH but found it by searching:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Corrine%20and%20Jasper/

 

Of the DDT=E components, your   are diagnosis and trim. You need to get the PPID and Lyme under control  That will take time.  He needs meticulous trim going forward, also takes time.  Keep up with numotizine. Is he still on 4 scoops PQ? Glad he is up to 22 pounds of cubes.

Please breathe, Corrine.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT:  The fall seasonal ACTH rise was first documented by an ECIR Group member and her veterinarian after noticing her horse had repeated bouts of fall laminitis. Fall laminitis is now recognized as an early sign of PPID.


Join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8. 13 hours of continuing education credit available.

http://www.nolaminitis.org/index.php/program-schedule/guest-speakers

---In EquineCushings@..., <sassafrass45@...> wrote :

Still Need HELP see post # 196694 All info on latest test are in case history now. Also change in meds are also in CH,along with latest diet change.


Thanks,

Corrine & Jasper 

MN 4/2014

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/ Corrine%20and%20Jasper

 


Jasper's Case History is UPDATED

corrine haffner
 

Still Need HELP see post # 196694 All info on latest test are in case history now. Also change in meds are also in CH,along with latest diet change.


Thanks,

Corrine & Jasper 

MN 4/2014

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/ Corrine%20and%20Jasper


Metabarol for IR?

 

Satra's veterinarian is trying to do her best to deal with Satra's worsening IR. We've agreed to increases in pergolide. We're also scheduling another ACTH blood draw at the same time of day as previous blood draws to get the most comparable results. The latest results show an alarming doubling of insulin from last spring. Oddly, though, the physical symptoms I watch as warning signs of worsening IR (goopy eyes, PU, ravenous appetite) have not changed significantly. Diet remains tight with only tested low ESC/starch hay and small amounts of ODTBC and Nuzu Stabul 1 with supplements and meds. Satra is in a dry lot.


One of the products she would like me to try is Equithrive Metabarol. The small study is shown here: https://equithrive.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/AdamsESSJEVSProceedings2013.pdf


The only discussions I found here cited the NIH study of resveratrol with the assertion that it increases cortisol which in turn ramps up insulin. I didn't locate that finding in a quick search of the cited study. The small study done at Gluck showed a significant reduction in insulin.


As an aside, a recent cortisol rhythm study showed Satra's cortisol was normal. I'll get that in the case history fwiw. 


Is there a major flaw in the Equithrive study that I can point out to the vet, apart from the small size of the sample?


My apologies to the moderators for the old CH form. I'm working on the new form but had some bizarre cross-platform formatting problems on the Mac that "disappeared" entire sections of the form (such as the meds!).


Cass for Satra

Sonoma County, Calif Oct 12

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory6/files/CBB%20for%20Sassy%26%2339%3Bs%20S-NorCal/ 


Re: Blood work- Help!

Nancy C
 

Jacque

I sent the CH form to your yahoo email address.



Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Standing on cement significantly reduces blood flow to the equine foot.

Please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference, Georgetown TX, November 6-8, 2015
www.nolaminitis.org


---In EquineCushings@..., <windybriars@...> wrote :


>I have been doing all the right things and they are getting worse. 


Ok, Jacque, let's step back a bit. Last January you reported that they were having a better winter.

Do you keep a journal? Can you see what you were doing then compared to now?


It looks to me, just from rereading your posts, that you have changed their diet since then. Right?


Until you get your CH sorted can you tell us exactly what you have been feeding recently? A list would be fine.



Devil is in the details. Let's get those nailed down.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf







Re: Blood work- Help!

Nancy C
 

Hi Jacque

This may come through twice.

Just want to support Lorna in asking for more collected details and to support you by letting you know we have all been right where you are. We understand the emotions because we have lived through them, and are here to help you work this through.

I am going to privately send you a new Case History in word format.  As you can, make a cup of tea, fill it out and then we'll figure out how to load it. 

We ask you to do this because, as Lorna says, we need the details to give best recommendations. We've found it also helped the owner focus on and keep track of what may be going on.  We rely on you to do this bc we are not there with  you.  This is the internet and clear communication is critical.

And no more shouting, okay? 

Go hug your herd,  and keep breathing.  Look for the CH in your inbox.  It may be in your spam folder.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Standing on cement significantly reduces blood flow to the equine foot.

Please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference, Georgetown TX, November 6-8, 2015
www.nolaminitis.org


---In EquineCushings@..., <windybriars@...> wrote :


>I have been doing all the right things and they are getting worse. 


Ok, Jacque, let's step back a bit. Last January you reported that they were having a better winter.

Do you keep a journal? Can you see what you were doing then compared to now?


It looks to me, just from rereading your posts, that you have changed their diet since then. Right?


Until you get your CH sorted can you tell us exactly what you have been feeding recently? A list would be fine.



Devil is in the details. Let's get those nailed down.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf







Re: Pet health pharmacy

Lisa S
 

Dr. Kellon,

I really appreciate you looking into this as a definitive answer (if one is to be found) can help us sort through things from this point forward.

In the discussion that was started around August 30 that dealt with this topic, I had posted the following:

<<<I decided to look up pergolide on the PubChem site, where it lists pergolide (C19H6N2S) at a molecular weight of 314.48814, but has a separate entry for pergolide mesylate (C20H30N2O3S2) at a molecular weight of 410.5938.

So...are these simply two different entries for what is essentially the same substance? OR does the first entry represent what pergolide would be if it didn't have the salt attached to it?>>>

It may come as no surprise that I was not a Chemistry savant. My assumption was that pergolide was just a common name for pergolide mesylate--but the PubChem info would seem to suggest they might be two different things.

Any info would be much appreciated. I am working on a CH for my IR gelding Zippy who has pergolide in his future. I want to be informed enough to control the things that I can control, and having more info on how the compounded drug should be correctly prescribed will help me do that. 

Lisa in TX
Zippy, Rita and Bunny- IR
June 2010


Re: Question on seasonal rise testing for two horses

Nancy C
 

Lydia....I need to get outside with my own and hit send to quickly.

RE: The Aleve...I know this is Babe we are talking about and not Rita.

Here's a down and dirty search for Aleve (naproxin sodium)


Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 



Also look at alternatives to but doc here

Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003

Why do herbal remedies not control PPID? To learn more about the understanding and diagnosing PPID and IR, nutrition, the foot, how it all comes together in the prevention of and rehab from laminitis, please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8. 13 hours of continuing education credit available.http://www.nolaminitis.org/index.php/program-schedule/guest-speakers




---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :



At 35 she may need NSAIDS all the time.  It is  concern but m Gabe finally had to go there due to arthritis as well.  Might take a look at archived messages on naproxin sodium, (Aleve) which is less  hit on the system but can get the job done.





---In EquineCushings@..., <lydia@...> wrote :



If I push for it they will get her on medication. They still trust my judgement for her. I still trim her feet and I pay for her blood tests, hay testing and her supplements and generally make sure she can be maintained the way I would. They have a volunteer staff feeding and supplementing the horses and did not want to add medicating to the duties unless absolutely necessary and the vet seemed to think it was not.

Lydia lawson CA 2008
ECHistory8

 



Re: Pet health pharmacy

Nancy C
 

Thank you for the clarification on Jesse’s meds.  It was not my intention to imply you had forgotten. I wanted to clarify that the pergolide was not withheld due to concern over the compound amount.

No one compounder is recommended by this group.  The ECIR recommendation is to use a reputable pharmacy. There are many compounders used by members and reports of their personal experiences are posted here.  A list of compounders is in the LINKS section but there are many others. Members have had varying experiences with compounders throughout the US.

This current conversation gives a member the opportunity to  review with each of their professionals what is best for their horses.  It is incumbent upon each member to work with their vet and pharmacy and establish which amount of pergolide is controlling the disease based on blood work and clinical signs. It takes vigilance to ensure you are getting what you need. Conversations like this have taken place hundreds, if not thousands of times over the last fifteen years.   Reports to the group, and ongoing discussions with our professionals, are quite frankly the foundation supporting better protocols for the welfare of these horses, IMO.

Also in my opinion, based on years of experience using both Prascend and compound pergolide,  one must focus on blood work and clinical signs to make sure your horse is well managed, regardless of what the exact dosage is.  That should be the primary focus.

It will be interesting to understand  the current thinking behind compounder protocols in this thread. It does not however, replace  responsibility for monitoring, and working with our individual professional team: our vet, our farrier/trimmer and including the pharmacy or directly with BI if needed. Thanks to those who have done so for the benefit of all.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: To diagnose IR, the ECIR Group recommends a non-fasted, simple blood draw for serum insulin, glucose and leptin and the use of VA Polytechnic Proxies.

Please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference, Georgetown TX, November 6-8, 2015

NO Laminitis!

 



---In EquineCushings@..., <lj_friedman@...> wrote :

 Because this pharmacy was recommended by the group, I would hope the people on the group can figure this out. Quite frankly it is beyond my scientific knowledge to figure this out. LJ Friedman San Diego
 


Re: Question on seasonal rise testing for two horses

Nancy C
 

Hi Lydia

Thanks for the updated CH.

Yes, understood question from your vet was about opening the package.

I reposted the link for you to see recommendations about when to retest and also for others who may be following this thread and not been to ecirhorse.org yet, or those who may need the resource again to review.

RE: Rite....some may not show overt symptoms until laminitis is present.  it could take until November, December or even January for this to appear, IME.

RE: Liphook graph.  Each animal is an individual.  Not sure we can extrapolate exactly how they would respond based on the animals in the study. By definition, above normal labs year round is a PPID diagnosis. Some animals need pergolide during seasonal rise during the fall to avoid laminitis, subclinical or acute.

At 35 she may need NSAIDS all the time.  It is  concern but m Gabe finally had to go there due to arthritis as well.  Might take a look at archived messages on naproxin sodium, (Aleve) which is less  hit on the system but can get the job done.

Our goal here is zero laminitis, so our DDT+E recs are based on that ultimate goal.  It is good that you are trimming the feet and can monitor. Balancing the diet is huge in supporting these horses and you have seen good results for which we applaud you. For diagnosis, my concern would be making sure her ACTH is uncontrolled. I understand the issues with barn chores and  staff. It's not easy. 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: The VA Polytechnic Pony Study is the only study to look at IR and laminitis under natural conditions. Learn more at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8.
http://nolaminitis.org/index.php/program-schedule/guest-speakers




---In EquineCushings@..., <lydia@...> wrote :



If I push for it they will get her on medication. They still trust my judgement for her. I still trim her feet and I pay for her blood tests, hay testing and her supplements and generally make sure she can be maintained the way I would. They have a volunteer staff feeding and supplementing the horses and did not want to add medicating to the duties unless absolutely necessary and the vet seemed to think it was not.

Lydia lawson CA 2008
ECHistory8

 



Re: Question on seasonal rise testing for two horses

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

HI Lydia,
I see you recently uploaded the old case history form because you were having problems with the new one?  The new one is much more detailed (a pita I know but a boon to the volunteers who can then better help members because so many questions are answered on the same document) and should work for everyone.  I've seen  the PDF returns red font and types across the boxes but have no PDF writer experience.  We think it has to do with the fonts not being compatible across the two formats.  It might have also to do with PDF having problems understanding the Word Table.  We chose fonts that are supposed to be supported by both PDF and Word.  
When you have time email me privately at ECIR.Archives^at^gmail^dot^com and maybe we can get this worked out for you.  
If anyone has the writer program for PDF (Adobe Acrobat?) and has time to trouble shoot this, I'd be thrilled to work with you on this.  It is important all members have the opportunity to use the improved version of the case history form.  

- ​LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist 03/2004

 

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database?

​​
   
View the Database Stats 
Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials




Re: Blood work- Help!

Lorna Cane
 


>I have been doing all the right things and they are getting worse. 


Ok, Jacque, let's step back a bit. Last January you reported that they were having a better winter.

Do you keep a journal? Can you see what you were doing then compared to now?


It looks to me, just from rereading your posts, that you have changed their diet since then. Right?


Until you get your CH sorted can you tell us exactly what you have been feeding recently? A list would be fine.


>>3oz of flax and 2 TBS of iodized salt with A cup of Purina LS


No AZ copper anymore?

Vitamin E ?


Your hay is 8.1 sugar.What is the starch?

I know hay is a big issue for you,and you have worked hard to get what is good for your 'kids'.


I know you don't like to soak hay in winter, but can you soak it now? It's one thing that you can do,without forking over more money,which can show results within a few days, depending on what's going on.


I used small mesh nets with my donkey and mule,too. But I kept them full. Less work for me,and they knew it was always there. Holes were about an inch,so they couldn't pull out wads of hay.


I think you may be looking for a product which will get your guys out of trouble. If there were one product which would do this the producer would be a gatrillionaire.

So let's just get the essentials rounded up first, before looking for something that doesn't exist. Been there,done that.


Devil is in the details. Let's get those nailed down.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf







Re: Blood work- Help!

Lorna Cane
 

 >>Sorry for all the confusion but I am so worried about my animals. i have been in tears all day

Jacque, take a deep breath, and know that we are here to help.We're pretty good at it when we put our heads together!
It may seem like a slow process but it will take a bit of time to get all the details in place to see the whole picture.

Baby steps - and deep breaths - will get us there.

I'm technically challenged but someone will help you get your CH's updated.

For now,one thing that is easy to do,and very helpful for the volunteers is for you to add your location,date of joining,and case history link to your signature (even though your case history isn't yet updated)each time you post.

Going back to reread your posts now.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf









Re: Question on seasonal rise testing for two horses

Lydia Lawson
 

Thank you Nancy,
I got Babe's case history updated but for some reason I had a different form for Rita and it just gave me so many problems trying to modify it. The font came out huge and red and some of the fields made the typing come out vertical instead of horizontal. I'll try gain later.

So, to answer your question about where my vet got the pill breaking info: it was not actually info about breaking them but opening the packages they are in. Anyway I guess we will find out by seeing if her test results get better! Sounds like plenty of people are using split pills and saving the other half. Just needed that reassurance that another half would be okay and I did not need to add a second pill instead. thanks for that.

I had read all of Lavinia's comments previously and do understand I want to keep Babe in normal range all year and that's what I am attempting to achieve by upping her dose. Not sure why you posted the link for me to read again. Am I missing something? Maybe it was about the info for Rita? I did want to know how long to wait before I test her again? Initially it was something like 3 weeks but due to the season I thought maybe I am supposed to wait longer?

For Rita I know Lavinia recommended starting her on Pracend in January. I would have done that myself because I am the one who went through the rescue and three years of rehabbing her from her IR induced founders! However she is not mine anymore and they went with the vet's recommendation of not doing anything since she was not showing symptoms and retesting after we had her on a balanced ration for a while. Balancing her minerals to her hay made a marked difference in her overall health. 

Based on that Liphook graph you sent me a while back, as a horse that tested high in January she should have tested extremely high during the fall seasonal rise. I thought it was interesting that she actually did not seem to experience a seasonal rise at all since her results were just about the same. Do you find that unusual? I do understand that both tests were too high to be normal. Again the vet said just keep on the good nutrition and since there are no symptoms he did not recommend medication. He would give it to them if they wanted it though. He is a reasonable guy and a good vet. He is trying to do his studying on PPID and Insulin resistance and admits that he is just getting on board with some of the more recent study. I have emailed him some of Dr Kellon's writings and he always reads them. For Babe he said her seasonal rise was normal and unless she showed new symptoms to continue as is but he was totally fine with me increasing the dose to see if we can keep her normal all year too.

If I push for it they will get her on medication. They still trust my judgement for her. I still trim her feet and I pay for her blood tests, hay testing and her supplements and generally make sure she can be maintained the way I would. They have a volunteer staff feeding and supplementing the horses and did not want to add medicating to the duties unless absolutely necessary and the vet seemed to think it was not.

Lydia lawson CA 2008
ECHistory8

 



Re: Pet health pharmacy

lj friedman
 

I have not forgotten to give Jesse his meds. I spoke to them once and reported back to you the conversation I had. Beyond that I have no plan on contacting them again. With that being said I have Cornell testing results that should become available in the next day or two and I will see how their 4 mg tablet has controlled Jessie's Cushing's, when I was expecting 3 mg. Because this pharmacy was recommended by the group, I would hope the people on the group can figure this out. Quite frankly it is beyond my scientific knowledge to figure this out. LJ Friedman San Diego


Re: Blood work- Help!

 

Its totally reasonable to be in tears and afraid  when you dont how or what to do for the  animals that you love. That was me last fall with my mare. I know exactly the desperation and helplessness that youre feeling. LeeAnne is fantastic with the computer stuff and can help you get your CHs straightened out. Unless your two boys are at this very moment foundering badly in an emergency situation then you can pause to breathe and steady yourself. Try to get a few hours rest and let's see what the morning brings with a fresh start. Its the weekend so perhaps more listers will be online to answer your questions and to help figure out your CH issues.  You will get thru this:  i have two horses and within the span of two months discovered one was PPID and the other severely IR. Talk abt some genuine hysteria!  But the group helped me tackle each horse piece by piece until both are now doing extremely well!  There is always hope and help here at ECIR. Get some rest and we'll all regroup. 

Best wishes,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 18, 2015, at 11:00 PM, jacquewhite50@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

 

Kerry, Neither of my animals are on pergolide. My mammoth donkey is 10yrs (with the leptin of 34) and the mule is 16yrs. I will have to call Cornell to find out if this number is correct on the leptin.  I had to trailer them 4 hours, 200 miles to the vet and then had to wait 2.5 hours to get blood drawn. They don't get any grain and had Teff hay on the trip.  My vet was in a hurry and the donkey was and has been hard to draw blood.  I know the stress of the trip may cause the insulin to raise but I didn't think it would be that high.  I have tried 3 times to update the history and save it with a new name but it s not saving.  I am saving to my echistory8.  Sorry for all the confusion but I am so worried about my animals. i have been in tears all day.  I( have been doing everything to try and help them.  Soaking hay in the winter will be difficult in Alaksa and they don't want to move much when its cold and icy.  I don't know what else to do.  I will order the U balance Foundation for a supplement unless their is something better.  I appreciate any suggestions. thanks for helping.
Jacque White
907-252-1953


Re: Blood work- Help!

Jacque White
 

Kerry, Neither of my animals are on pergolide. My mammoth donkey is 10yrs (with the leptin of 34) and the mule is 16yrs. I will have to call Cornell to find out if this number is correct on the leptin.  I had to trailer them 4 hours, 200 miles to the vet and then had to wait 2.5 hours to get blood drawn. They don't get any grain and had Teff hay on the trip.  My vet was in a hurry and the donkey was and has been hard to draw blood.  I know the stress of the trip may cause the insulin to raise but I didn't think it would be that high.  I have tried 3 times to update the history and save it with a new name but it s not saving.  I am saving to my echistory8.  Sorry for all the confusion but I am so worried about my animals. i have been in tears all day.  I( have been doing everything to try and help them.  Soaking hay in the winter will be difficult in Alaksa and they don't want to move much when its cold and icy.  I don't know what else to do.  I will order the U balance Foundation for a supplement unless their is something better.  I appreciate any suggestions. thanks for helping.
Jacque White
907-252-1953


Re: Blood work- Help!

Jacque White
 

I HAVE UPDATED 3 TIMES AND IT DOESN'T CHANGE.   I SAVED IT EACH TIME.  I DID WHAT IT SAID ON BOTH DIXIE AND DEXTER.  HELP


Re: 2ND Post Re NOW Lyme dease test results Was: Pergolide Dosage Question

corrine haffner
 

Need input on these numbers for lyme test,he has bounding pulses and no heat and he's sore footed. He's on doxy already has been for i think over a week. Hasn't popped an abscess now for 3 or 4 days,i'am so frustrated with this horse. Hasn't been 48 hours since i posted this but its close desperate for help. Will update CH tomorrow morning with all new test results.

His diet is all ODTB cubes he's getting no hay now just cubes 22lbs in four different feedings,so diet shouldn't be a factor in his being sore footed. No access to grass or weeds either...

OSPA 38,000 Positive
 
Ospc 22,000 Positive

OSPF  34,000 Positive

Dont understand the OSPA number he's never been vaccinated for lyme


Thank you,
Corrine & Jasper

91101 - 91120 of 283954