Date   

Re: WAS Jasper's Lyme Results NOW: Cold and Insulin

 

Nancy writes:

....." ..just want to point out that cold snaps drives insulin up and it does not need to be freezing. ... Temps below 50 will play havoc on my horse. Researchers have stopped insulin studies during colder temps. ".....

Very interesting :) I will look at the main site and archives to learn more (eg, is there a pathophysiology understood yet for that phenomenon?)


....."Here's the link to ECHistory 6 web page where Beau's history is.".....

Thk you. This time the link let me through.


....." Thank you Kerry for showing us why Case Histories are so important.".....

Oh lord...you are most welcome ;)))))

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Jesse labs how high should I go?

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Lj - I would say that increasing with Prascend if you have that on hand is fine. Alternatively, you can get a script for 1.01 mg compounded, as many capsules as needed to have a 5 mg dose for the duration of the 3 mg caps, then next script would be for 5 mg.

There may be minor differences in the amount of potent pergolide in the compounded vs the Prascend, but those differences will be minor.

Jesse sounds like he really has the life of Riley!  You are a great horse dad.


 Is there any problem with using 3.0 compounded, then increasing with prascend till I figure out a dose that works and then get a compounded dose when the numbers are more stable?  lj friedman san digo nov 2014. 


Re: Compensated to Severe IR Status

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Sally -

****And, if she needs Pergolide based on her current Cornell ACTH level of 35.4 (9.0-35.0 ref int)*****

No, I would say no pergolide at this time.  She is IR, not PPID. 

***Would still love some feedback on whether or not Tabby is a candidate for Chromium supplementation***

If your hay is deficient in chromium, that could help; if you want to add some, it won't hurt (but might not help, either)

****Will be sending hay off for analysis this week.  Is there a max ESC+Starch number that would allow me to feel comfortable not soaking given her recent blood work results?*****

The general recommendation is ESC + starch below 10%;  I never like to see starch above 2.5 % myself, plus ESC to add up to below 10%.  What was the ESC and starch on your previous hay?  That appears to be completely safe. Some horses need a lower level of sugar plus starch than others.


*****I would sleep better if I knew just how critical she is with that RISQI score of .18, and Leptin at 5.48?***

I would certainly be soaking that new hay until you get the analysis back.  In the meantime, take heart in knowing that for many horses, having been on a well-controlled diet for some time seems to give them a bit of a reserve when it comes to snatching bits of green.  Too much green is definitely playing with fire, but small amounts for *most* horses won't be the tipping point.


I appreciate that one can only do so much; if at all possible, at this point can you invest your time in exercising her, and soaking the new hay?  Also, does she need the full 3 or 4 pounds of timothy pellets?  Often, borderline s/s bagged feeds will not cause a problem if fed only at a pound or so per day, but more will cause issues.  The average analysis on the website will not apply to each individual bag; it is just an overall average.


Right now, I lean towards the timothy pellets and/or the new hay, plus reduced exercise as the culprits, rather than wee bits of green.

Hang in there!






Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

corrine haffner
 

Hi Kerry

Jasper is still sore footed going through  45 to 50 lbs of cubes a day,i know way to much but its either feed him or have him destroy his corral. If he's not eating cubes he's eating rails down, if rails come down he's out on grass,so i throw out the cubes 2 to 3 lbs at a time. So pretty much free feeding cubes last 3 days i don't know what else to do.  Feed store i used to get cubes from quite carrying them i payed 23 dollars a bag now i'am paying 30$ a bag and driving 186 miles round trip. 

How am i doing going crazy, frustrated ready to just throw out a round bale for the horse and call it good,would i do that NO but sure tempting. I know everyone is on here to help and i'am so ever grateful for it. It's seems we are in on big vicious cycle of one step forward only to take 5 steps back. 
 
In my frustration i'am over feeding an IR, PPID horse who's gaining weight and going to be on his way to being obese. Am i helping my horse by doing this probably not,do i know better yes but i still continue to throw out cubes and feed 45 lbs a day. It's all in the name of frustration and stress,so there is the dirty truth of what i'v been doing last 3 or better day now. 


Pre Cushings horse

J Foust
 

Hi,
Could someone direct me to the management recommendations for a pre-Cushings horse. I don't believe he is IR but can have that checked. He's not foundered that I know of and his BCS is a 5.5 or 6.
I would like to prevent his getting more health problems if possible.
He's 17, gelding, appolussa. Used to be a stud. Thanks!

Joella NRCPluse


WAS Jasper's Lyme Results NOW: Cold and Insulin

Nancy C
 

I'm sure you probably get this by now Kerry, but just want to point out that cold snaps drives insulin up  and it does not need to be freezing. We've known that for a long time, but just recently added the info on the new CH form to help folks document and pull apart the confounding factors.  Temps below 50 will play havoc on my horse.  Researchers have stopped insulin studies during colder temps.

Here's the link to ECHistory 6 web page where Beau's history is.

ECHistory6

 



Any one can and should join any of our 8 CH "filing cabinets" as discussions likee this come up. Join just as you did here on the main list.

Thank you Kerry for showing us why Case Histories are so important.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003

Review in depth, current understanding for diagnosing and control of PPID and IR, nutrition, the foot, and how it all comes together in the prevention of and rehab from laminitis,  at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference in Georgetown, Texas, November 6-8. 13 hours of continuing education credit available.

Guest Speakers

 


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

 

Corrine,

We are here for you! All of us are trying to help, and most definitely not trying to confuse things.

How is Jasper this morning? And how are you? Its totally ok to vent some frustration, blow off steam, shed some stress with tears, or all of the above -- after all, we are women ;))))))

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

corrine haffner
 

Thank you everyone,i'v been reading responses but not posting,my frustration is over the top this morning. 


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

corrine haffner
 

Hi 
I get my cubes from sauk centre fleet supply i drive 93 miles one way here's the number from the tag 7172-18977. Had to call feed store to get number from bag, i burned the bags i had i just got feed 2 days ago.


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

 

Nanct writes:

....."I know you have taken many insulin readings.  During the ODTB Cube insulin spike with your mare - fall and winter it sounds like - did you take ambient temps into consideration?

....."Take a peak at Beau's CH. Not updated (GUILTY!) but you should get the idea.


>>> Hi Nancy,

I would love to read your CH.  However, I'm getting the sad face icon that informs me that I'm not a member of  EC6.  Will you send me an invite (or however that process works)?

As for ambient temp & blood draws, that is something I've only recently started recording (I was using the old CH format until just recently)

For the specific insulin spikes I was mentioning in ref to Pinky and the ODTBCs, most of those observations of "spiking" and "resolving" were clinical b/c Pinky is quite easy to read (her hyperinsulinemic symptoms are always PU/PD first, then depression [hiding in shed corner], stumbling & stiffness under saddle)  Those all happen within about two-three days.  By four or five days into a spike, she will become tender over rocks and start seeking out grass shoulders on gravel paths.  She is never overtly "lame", however; she will stumble to her knees during a spike but will pick herself up and continue b/c that's how she is.  Its subtle enough that if I have hoof boots on for comfort, I really can only tell her insulin is high b/c she is not aggressive to the jumps.  This stoic constitution was a large part of why it was so hard to figure out wth was wrong with her before we tried pergolide.  Obviously the "resolving" facet of her spikes was easy to identify (ie, I had to change bridles for a stronger bit!)

Thanks so much,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

 

Lorna writes:

...."My comment,"Couldn't agree more!", if that is what you are referencing wrt your apology, had nothing to do with your messages.

It had everything to do with Valeree's assessment,above,and what she said in the rest of her message."....


>>> Hi Lorna,

For some reason the original bottom 2/3's of Valeree's message didn't appear on my screen (sometimes *no* messages appear, which is really odd).  Now that I've read the entire original message from Valeree to Corrine, the back & forth makes more sense.  Thank you for taking the time to respond & clarify!  I do appreciate it greatly :)

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

 

Dr Kellon writes:

....."The emergency diet is not because it's guaranteed to be lowest S/S.  It's just something anyone can do immediately. .... If a new member mentioned they could switch right away to all ODTB we'd tell them to go for it."....

>>>  Ok, that makes sense to me now.  Which directly leads to...



...."There is no guarantee a soaked hay will end up with S/S below ODTB.  Everyone starts with untested hay."....

>>>>  I come into this differently:  I *did* have an analysis done on the hay I was using for the Emergency Diet:  Esc+ Starch was consistently between 6 - 7.5% (at the time, I didn't understand any of this; its only with the knowledge gained since & looking back on my analyses that i have pieced this theory together).  Bc of logistics I had to soak the hay for 12 hour stretches, so I'm surmising that *at most*, the hay I was feeding as Emergency Diet was </= 4.02 to 5.03% (using the "30% sugar reduction of soaking" of the known 6.0 - 7.5% Esc+starch), if not even lower, considering how long it was soaked.  My mare stabilized repeatedly on this soaked hay aka Emergency Diet (until the very end, during 2014 seasonal rise, and my consult with you as a PPID candidate).  B/c I knew my mare's patterns so well by this point, I feel confident that my observations of her returning IR symptoms when I tried to introduce the cubes and then resolve of symptoms when I removed them and put her back on the soaked hay (same as above), my take away from that experience was that Pinky's threshold for Esc+starch was abnormally low, and the cubes must be higher than her threshold tolerance. 

So for most newly diagnosed horses, switching to ODTBCs is a step down in Esc+starch.
For my mare, I believe it was a
step up,

Of course, nothing I did in diet worked in the long run until I got her pergolide dose correct, in which she can now safely eat the ODTBCs without any IR symptoms, and has for months.  I cannot emphasize this enough:  the ODTBCs are a really fantastic product !!




....."Also, when there are complicating problems like PPID or other illness even soaked low S/S hay isn't going to get the job done.".....

>>> Absolutely, I witnessed this firsthand -- while soaked low S/S hay worked temporarily for my mare, eventually it didn't because her undiagnosed PPID reached a critical point during the seasonal rise (Oct, 2014).
Getting her pergolide dose correct was the only thing that ultimately fixed her IR symptoms.



Thank you Dr. Kellon for taking the time to respond & helping me understand, and more importantly, to think.  I cannot express my appreciation enough.

I realize I am going to have to finish updating both horses' CHs, esp b/c while theories are crystal clear in my head, I understand that my posting of my thoughts w/o the CH as a scrutable timeline, is likely confusing at best, and potentially dangerous at worst. 

Again, I'm sorry for causing confusion, esp to Corrine. 

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Corrine,

Where do you buy your ODTB?  What is the batch number printed on the lavendar tag?

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


-


Re: Cushings horse with projectile diarrhea on pergolide; new to group

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Is the Cushing's diagnosis confirmed by lab work?  Do you have a history posted?  What dose of pergolide? What is the diet?

Eleanor in PA'
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001
-


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


Kerry,

Maybe this will help explain.

The emergency diet is not because it's guaranteed to be lowest S/S.  It's just something anyone can do immediately.  There is no guarantee a soaked hay will end up with S/S below ODTB.  Everyone starts with untested hay.  If a new member mentioned they could switch right away to all ODTB we'd tell them to go for it.

Also, when there are complicating problems like PPID or other illness even soaked low S/S hay isn't going to get the job done.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

--


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

Lorna Cane
 



I>>t had everything to do with Valeree's assessment,above,and what she said in the rest of her message.

Hit Send too quickly.

Specifically, we need  to listen to our horse.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 




Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

Lorna Cane
 

Whoa Kerry,

....."Having 'listened' to you fight for Jasper for weeks now, I would gently suggest that it's time to turn off the background noise for a while.  It can sometimes be too overwhelming and can divert you from the most important tool you have - listening to Jasper.  You are there with him virtually every waking minute.".....

....."Couldn't agree more !"....

>>>> OK, I understand, and I will post nothing further on the subject.  My apologies....


My comment,"Couldn't agree more!", if that is what you are referencing wrt your apology, had nothing to do with your messages.

It had everything to do with Valeree's assessment,above,and what she said in the rest of her message.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 




Re: Re Post Message196663: IR or PPID Symptoms?

Sharon Manning
 

" At this rate, I'll be in the poor-house in a few years. "
Ha! I have one on 7mg and another on 20mg!! Defiantly at the top end for me.....
Sharon
E tn
2005

Sent from my iPhone
Please forgive any errors


Re: Aleve / Naproxen Sodium dosage

Sharon Manning
 

Kathy
I was just going to try once and see if it helped during her trimming
Sharon
E tn
2005

Sent from my iPhone
Please forgive any errors


Re: Jasper's Lyme Results

hinecedark@...
 

Hi Corrine,

I wish I had received this message five years ago when I was in a similar position. But I am writing to add to the voices echoing Dr. Kellon with the message that until the PPID is controlled, there is no safe food. My gelding was on the emergency diet for months, eating only soaked timothy hay at 6 - 7% ESC + Starch before soaking. He would not eat beet pulp, or cubes, lost over 200lb, and was one pitiful specimen. He was already on 2mg/day of pergolide at the beginning of this laminitic episode, and did not improve until we reached 8mg. The pergolide was the only thing that helped him, despite knocking myself out during all that time trying everything else suggested.

Melinda

IN 2010

EC Case History 3