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Re: WAS I don't know NOW Feet

Sally Hugg
 

Hi Coral -

Horses can have great concavity and thin soles at the same time. I have a TB like that. It's not ideal, but sure beats flat, thin soles :) The big difference between his feet and Po's is that he has never had laminitis. He has good walls and laminar connection. Both of my active TBs live 24/7 on gravel in a sacrifice area during our winter rainy season and their soles get worn from the gravel and constant wetness. I always boot them for any kind of exercise during the winter. During our dry season their soles thicken up and it's not an issue. 
Certain breeds have genetically better feet than others, but there are many exceptions. I've seen mustangs with lousy feet and TBs with great feet. Bottom line, you do the best you can with what you've got. I always consider the living conditions, the horse's job, and also what the owner can do. I've used casts, composite shoes and boots for years, and had success with all of them. I'd much rather manage a horse barefoot with boots as needed, but I'll use the best solution I have for the individual horse, even if it means a referral to a good farrier. 
If you have weak laminae and a thin sole, the coffin bone is not strongly suspended up inside the hoof wall. 
Think of the sole as an upside down trampoline and the laminae as the springs that attach it to the frame. With strong, tight springs that trampoline isn't going to sink as far down when someone jumps on it as a trampoline with loose, worn springs. When we pick up a foot and look at it from the solar view, that isn't a loaded foot. As the horse puts weight on the foot and loads it during the stance phase of a stride, the coffin bone exerts more pull on the laminae and presses down on the sole. With a thin soled foot there just isn't much except the corium between the coffin bone, sole and the ground. In my experience, constant pressure on a thin sole just seems to inhibit circulation to the sole and these horses never get better. But if you support the foot and relieve some of that pressure off the sole then it starts growing again. It just takes time, a good trim, the right diet, and a lot of patience :).
Re: New case report: Annie

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

When you do your history on Annie (don't wait for lab work) be sure to include all past issues with feet, weight, etc.


Our goal is NO laminitis. Of all the consequences of metabolic issues, this is the most devastating. It doesn't matter how good the horse looks standing around if her feet hurt.


Not sure why you think laminitis is controversial. There's always more to learn but we have much more scientifically solid and clear information now than even in the recent past.


If you were giving her a sufficiently large dose of turmeric to influence inflammation it wouldn't make much difference since endocrinopathic laminitis is not inflammatory.


Similarly, even if a few drops of zeolite (aka clay, aka clumping kitty litter) in water could detoxify the liver and kidneys (it can't), toxins do not cause this.


The False Daisy isn't the problem per se. It's not a toxic plant. Considering her breed it's likely she tends to be IR regardless of PPID status and is at risk of laminitis if allowed to graze especially when not being regularly worked. Weeds can have just as much sugar and starch, or more, as grass. You should consider stopping the TC Lite and alfalfa, putting her on the emergency diet.


You should worry about the bute (especially at this dose) more than the pergolide. Many horses take a while to adjust to the pergolide but there are ways to help her with this. It's not unusual for IR horses to be sensitive to vaccinations. This is because of immune system changes and has nothing to do with the response to pergolide.


I was the first person to try Chastetree Berry (Vitex agnus-castus) for horses with PPID. It helps with relief of some symptoms but does not reliably control the real underlying problem and hormone levels. The whole time you are using it as an alternative treatment the condition is getting more and more out of control.


Bee pollen is very high in sugar and starch. Dangerous choice.


This group has over 15 years experience with thousands and thousands of horses. We share studies and our experience. Always on the lookout for new approaches but only if backed up by solid research. There's too much at stake.


Eleanor in Pa
www.drkellon.com   2 for 1

EC Co-owner
Feb 2001
Re: New case report: Annie

Nancy C
 

Hi Candace

Welcome to the ECIR Group.  You are in the right place to help your mare and others in your care. You'll soon get a full welcome from one of our experienced volunteers.  If you have been following any of the cases/threads now ongoing, you my have deduced that  we are more than a little different here.

Want to point you to some prelim background info you may find useful.  You should have received a welcome package, perhaps in your yahoo mail box. IF not you can find it in the STRAT HERE folder found in our FILES section.

Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 



Also lots of background on Cushing's/PPID and IR here on Equine Cushings & Insulin Resistance Group
We ask that each member fill out a case history for the animal(s) they wish to discuss. This helps us help you by putting all the info in one place for easy reference.  If you would please join our Yahoo FILING CABINET, you'll find what you need to get started.  You need to join as you did this group. Once in you will find instructions.

 

ECHistory8

 

Again, Welcome!

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ECIR Group Inc.

 
Re: Uckele Optimize Pellets ESC + starch levels?

Nancy C
 

Hi  Barbara

Not sure why you've wanted to feed this but recommend checking the web site for more info.  I love Uckele but this feed would not be where I would go for my metabolic horses b/c of some of the additions.

ie., added Manganese, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Riboflavin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin

http://equine.uckele.com/optimize-pellets.html

 

If you can't find the ESC and Starch in the link above, you could call Uckele tomorrow.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ECIR Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <vincentbab19@...> wrote :

I've been looking for a good mineral balanced feed for my Cushings / IR mini horse, Lily. 
Barbara and Lily
Malvern, PA
March 2015

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Barbara%20and%20Lily/

 
Re: New case report: Annie

Candace Costis
 

Thank you for the links to the styrofoam for horse hooves. For some reason I never thought I could google it!

I also want to add to my report that I have red, acid, sandy loam soil. The red is likely from iron which I read around here is implicated in Cushings.
Candace
Re: I don't know what else to do

Candace Costis
 

--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 1/10/16, coralrenee@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: I don't know what else to do
To: EquineCushings@...
Date: Sunday, January 10, 2016, 10:20 AM


 Hey, Coral. I am a beginner here, too. I've been removing layers of hoof and have been shocked at the amount of infection I'm finding in there. Without exercise the hooves are growing really fast. Today I removed as much toe as I dared but I also angled up the floor of the hoof at the toe. My Annie seemed much more comfortable. And I'm with you. I find this hoof padding/shoe business daunting. Well, onward through the fog.
Candace
Austin area, Texas.









Kathy/Sally (and everyone else who
responded),
Thank you
all for responding and, I apologize- I thought I had the
latest hay analysis in my case history but I didn't see
it, so I just uploaded it. As Kathy said, starch is 2.9%.
When I said I was soaking for so long to decrease the sugars
AND starches, I misspoke. I remember from the conference and
my mineral balancing with Kathy that starch doesn't
decrease with soaking. And, it was extremely difficult to
find the hay that I found. Here where I live, everyone is
concerned about protein % and couldn't give a flip about
sugars or starches so hay sellers kind of looked at my like
I was nuts when I wanted to test their hay BEFORE
buying. 
I will try
soaking for less time to see if that helps. I will try
testing the soaked hay to see what results I get.
Unfortunately I'm going to need to start the search for
more hay soon to get a new year's supply.
:(
I didn't know
that about the trimming: keeping them from not moving too
much. I thought movement was GOOD. I took hoof pics the last
time I trimmed but because of technological difficulties I
haven't uploaded them yet. I will try to get to
that. 
I have pretty
much decided I'm going to turn over Po's trims to
the certified barefoot trimmer, and just do maintenance
trims in between. I don't know anything about Epona
shoes or how to put on any composite shoes. He recommended a
different style of boots and I'm going to get those for
Po. 
I'm very
frustrated because it seems like it's always one
set-back after another with Po. And he just isn't
getting better. His feet are generally better than they were
when I first started trimming him, but it's incredibly
frustrating to many spend hundreds of dollars a month on a
horse that isn't showing any definite benefit from
it.
Coral &
PoSept 2013Corpus Christi,
TX
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Coral%20and%20Poseido/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHoof/photos/albums/844830912
 




---In EquineCushings@...,
<kathbrink@...> wrote :

Hi
Coral,
Are you currently
feeding Henry's First Cut hay?  If so, the ESC is 5.9%
and the Starch is 2.9%.
The recommendation is to
soak the hay for 1 hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot
water.  I wonder if the hay may be reabsorbing sugar from
its "bath" water.


Equine
Cushings and Insulin Resistance The
ECIR Yahoo group provides a place for everyone who has a
horse with Cushing’s Disease and Insulin Resistance in
their care to share expe...


View on groups.yahoo.com


Preview by Yahoo
 















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Re: WAS I don't know NOW Feet

Coral Richline
 

Ok, so since you're a trimmer, I have another question. The CBT that looked at Po commented on the soft thin soles too. I was under the impression that once the sole develops concavity due to the toes being closer to where they should be that the sole develops some thickness at about the same rate as concavity.

Now, the other thing I've been told is that thin soles can be genetic. When I bought the horse I was told he had "bad feet" and would need shoes. Well, does he NEED shoes because he's always going to be thin-soled no matter how good his trim is? I thought thin soles could eventually be remedied. To me, shoes are a bandaid covering up a larger problem but are there truly horses that must be shod?

Thanks,

Coral & Po
Sept 2013
Corpus Christi, TX

(On phone so don't have links)


Sent from my iPhone.
Uckele Optimize Pellets ESC + starch levels?

Barbara Vincent
 

I've been looking for a good mineral balanced feed for my Cushings / IR mini horse, Lily.  I asked my very knowledgeable adviser, Maggie, about the Uckele Optimize.  She did not know what the ESC and starch levels were in this feed, and suggested I ask the list.
  Right now she eats her 1 mg tab of Prascend in about 1/4 cup of Triple Crown senior, in a feed bag.   She's picky.  Lukewarm on the ODTB cubes;  much prefers her low sugar grass hay.  I don't think the cubes would work as a carrier for anything worse tasting. 
Barbara and Lily
Malvern, PA
March 2015

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Barbara%20and%20Lily/

 
Re: New case report: Annie

Lorna Cane
 

Re: New case report: Annie

Lorna Cane
 


>>What is the styrofoam people keep mentioning for cushioning the feet.


Hi Candace,


I  Googled styrofoam/hooves/equine. Here are a couple of sites:


https://www.google.ca/search?q=styrofoam+hooves+equine&espv=2&biw=1134&bih=897&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwicqYTO7Z_KAhVDWx4KHdIFBn8QsAQILw&dpr=1.1


More in our Conversations archives.Even more on our EC Hoof sister site.


Styrofaom pads are very useful,but nothing will help (ok, maybe it will,but just temporarily) if the trim isn't a balanced one.



Lorna in Ontario,Canada

ECIR Moderator 2002

 

http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

 

 
Re: Need some help with my mare

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Re: I don't know what else to do

Sally Hugg
 

Hi Coral -

I just looked at your photos on EC Hoof - nice job with the pictures :). 

For an owner trying to trim a case like this you have done a pretty good job, so take heart in that. There are some things that can be improved in the trim. Your trimmer should be able to recognize those areas and show you what to do. While Po's feet have good concavity, his soles appear to be very thin and there are sole ridges at the toe. In cases with thin soles I don't trim those ridges. Very thin soled horses often can't handle much pressure on their soles and it's possible that even the nice deep sand environment you have provided Po may be too much for his feet right now. That is where some experimenting with foot wear comes in handy. Most trimmers carry a variety of boots/pads and assorted footwear in their trucks to try out, so you shouldn't have to spend hundreds of $$ trying things that may or may not work.

I think with better boots and padding that you will make Po a lot more comfortable. Hang in there!


---In EquineCushings@..., <coralrenee@...> wrote :

Kathy/Sally (and everyone else who responded),

I have pretty much decided I'm going to turn over Po's trims to the certified barefoot trimmer, and just do maintenance trims in between. I don't know anything about Epona shoes or how to put on any composite shoes. He recommended a different style of boots and I'm going to get those for Po. 

Coral & Po
Sept 2013
Corpus Christi, TX




 
Re: Need some help with my mare

tara sullivan
 

Thank you so much for the encouraging words...it helps!  The recommendation was from the ultra sound done on 12/24. 
The timing of this whole episode with the holidays, lab closures, my family obligations, Dr. G's family obligations....the internists...blahblahblah  It just really contorted the whole process.
And I have totally hogged this forum-my apologies to all because this whole list is for people and their horses in crisis. 
So please accept my heartfelt Thanks to all of you who endured.  But....we aren't at the end of the story, yet!

Maybe it is time to move this to another forum-Let me know if I should.

Tara and Divina
Re: I don't know what else to do

Coral Richline
 

Kathy/Sally (and everyone else who responded),

Thank you all for responding and, I apologize- I thought I had the latest hay analysis in my case history but I didn't see it, so I just uploaded it. As Kathy said, starch is 2.9%. When I said I was soaking for so long to decrease the sugars AND starches, I misspoke. I remember from the conference and my mineral balancing with Kathy that starch doesn't decrease with soaking. And, it was extremely difficult to find the hay that I found. Here where I live, everyone is concerned about protein % and couldn't give a flip about sugars or starches so hay sellers kind of looked at my like I was nuts when I wanted to test their hay BEFORE buying. 

I will try soaking for less time to see if that helps. I will try testing the soaked hay to see what results I get. Unfortunately I'm going to need to start the search for more hay soon to get a new year's supply. :(

I didn't know that about the trimming: keeping them from not moving too much. I thought movement was GOOD. I took hoof pics the last time I trimmed but because of technological difficulties I haven't uploaded them yet. I will try to get to that. 

I have pretty much decided I'm going to turn over Po's trims to the certified barefoot trimmer, and just do maintenance trims in between. I don't know anything about Epona shoes or how to put on any composite shoes. He recommended a different style of boots and I'm going to get those for Po. 

I'm very frustrated because it seems like it's always one set-back after another with Po. And he just isn't getting better. His feet are generally better than they were when I first started trimming him, but it's incredibly frustrating to many spend hundreds of dollars a month on a horse that isn't showing any definite benefit from it.

Coral & Po
Sept 2013
Corpus Christi, TX






---In EquineCushings@..., <kathbrink@...> wrote :

Hi Coral,

Are you currently feeding Henry's First Cut hay?  If so, the ESC is 5.9% and the Starch is 2.9%.


The recommendation is to soak the hay for 1 hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water.  I wonder if the hay may be reabsorbing sugar from its "bath" water.

 
New file uploaded to EquineCushings

EquineCushings@...
 

Hello,


This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the EquineCushings
group.


File : /9 Case Histories/How to Use Open Office to Fill Out - Update Case Histories.doc
Uploaded by : tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>
Description : Help for those using Mac computers or Apple devices to fill out the case history form.


You can access this file at the URL:
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To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
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Regards,


tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>
Re: Need some help with my mare

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Thanks, Tara, for keeping us updated with everything else you have on her plate. You and your team are doing a fabulous job of supporting her. What kind of testing identified a possible small intestinal issue?

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com   2 for 1

EC Co-owner
Feb 2001
New case report: Annie

Candace Costis
 

Well, I'm new to the business of Cushings and Laiminitis. I thought I knew something but, no. I am trying to find my way out of the wilderness. Bit of history and current status. 

Saw my Morgan mare, 17 years old or so, had Cushings symptoms. After this Spring she did not lose her winter fur which was longer than usual. Her neck was a bit cresty. I wanted to get her back into riding/training but her back was out because she caught her hip a couple of times but I didn't and then got distracted by a severe and rare eye infection in another mare (ocular herpes virus: the solution was easy after hundreds spent on a misdiagnosis of fungal which has a similar presentation). Annie was on jiaogolan. This initially helped her bad feet and she was perkier but then it did not - the why I subsequently read about here. And, she has a special liking for a false daisy which is taking over our fields and always causes her trouble.* So, as I was finishing up with the other healing, Annie got laminitis and I panicked and discovered that this is a very complicated and controversial issue.

Presently: A week or so later. Crest no longer rock hard and is flexible. General whole body swelling nearly gone. She looks great. Her hooves are still very sore. She has been able to stand on three feet for hoof work since the beginning but finds walking painful.

Treatment: Tumeric and specifically Golden Paste which is a special cooked blend of tumeric, water, coconut oil and fresh ground pepper devised by a small animal vet for inflammation. 

NCD2 by Waiora for detox of liver and kidneys.

and other various and sundry things - flax, vit E, C when I remember

Feet: daily cleaning with baking soda and trimming.

She is in a small paddock and receiving Triple Crown Lite, small treats of fresh alfalfa which she is accustomed to and coastal bermuda hay which is organic and home grown but not tested.


Vet pushes me hard to administer Bute and Pergolide. I did give her 4 days of Bute 2 grams 2 x a day but no Pergolide (fear of it). Vet fussed that I needed to get metabolic under control to affect feet. He said I could reduce the amount which might have been 2 once a day. Annie is very sensitive and can not tolerate, say, vaccinations. One tablet of Pergolide made her look very sick. Remember she looks and acts great now except for sore feet - she is standing but moving carefully. After a day or two I am going to try 1/2 a pill once a day. Vet does not see the need for testing. When I feel Annie can travel I will take her to another vet for testing.


Questions: what about chaste berry? A friend has used it with success. 

What is the styrofoam people keep mentioning for cushioning the feet. I am finding that boots (expensive, my medical allocation is exhausted) have to be sized and wonder about using diapers temporarily. I heard somewhere that some people use these in a pinch. Right now Annie is standing in soft spots in her small bare paddock.


Future: want to order chaste berry, buy some shoes or something (maybe diapers today until I figure out shoe sizing procedures, etc). Order bee pollen which intuition says would be beneficial. Continue to monitor the Pergolide to see if she can tolerate it at any dosage. Continue the Golden Paste, NCD2, keep trimming back the front of her hooves which are growing at astonishing rates, sessions of cranial sacral work as specifically advised by April Battles who also advised the NCD2.

And, I can't figure out ow to send a photo.


So, I'm in. I welcome advice and comments. 

Candace


* I have been trying to get the horses off of those fields with the false daisy and keep Annie away from it, especially, but as stated was distracted. We've also been trying to find a way of eliminating this weed.
Re: I don't know NOW soaking hay

Nancy C
 

Hi Kathy

It was in the other email but happy to say again, Iron and Mn went down but not enough to say it was anything important.

That my starch actually went up may be an anomaly but certainly is in line with what we've known before -- that starch can't be soaked out.

If it has been established that sugar may go back into the hay with prolonged soaking, I need to see that info again. In my opinion, based on my 2012-2013 year of soaking, even if it DID go back in, the end result of sugar lowered by some 2/3's was enough for my wickedly sensitive guy. The process I developed kept me sane and him safe while soaking in -20 F temps.

I would advise Coral, as you have, that the starch cannot be soaked out,  and that 2.9 may be too high for Po.

This next bit may be too far in the weeds.  We know starch is digested to all glucose. ESC to 50% glucose. IF we follow the starch = 2xs glucose of esc rule, her current hay unsoaked would be 11.7%, right? (5.9+2.9+2.9 = 11.7)

Even if the ESC was cut in 2/3s like mine, she's still at almost 8% with the level of starch he is eating.  At 50% reduction in ESC she starts to climb closer to the 10% cut off. Less than a 50% reduction in ESC with soaking and she gets  over 10%
 
Analyzing a sample soaked in the  manner which you prepare the  hay, would be the quickest way to answer  questions on what you are actually feeding. Could just do a wet chem on starch and esc alone to start.  IME it is money well spent.

In this case I'd test the soaked hay, if okay on ESC and Starch, balance to the test. Would get more eyes on my trim. Would try to keep him from having any exceptional movement in the pasture or otherwise, until I was sure about the hoof capsule and solid growth.

I know you know this Kathy, and I know I am a broken record, but for folks following along, may I say again, when one gets stuck in place you have to go back to DDT+E, review and check all the boxes.  In the past when we've believed the DD's were tightly in place, it is usually the foot (trim) that needs the most attention to get the horse comfortable. 

More than you wanted to hear perhaps.....Thanks for listening.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Mod
February 2003

---In EquineCushings@..., <kathbrink@...> wrote :

What would you advise an owner (Coral) who had a difficult time sourcing hay and finally found a hay with ESC 5.9% and Starch 2.9%?  My concern was that there might be too much starch in this hay for an IR horse (Po) and that it might need soaking based on symptoms when feeding it.  If she is soaking it for 12 hours, might she not be increasing starch while decreasing sugar based on your results?


Re: Polycystic Ovary Syndrome and Laminitis

Maggie
 

Hi Julia,

I totally agree with Lorna on the importance of getting your case history done on Jazz.  One reason is that knowing exactly what you are feeding her can help us to help you evaluate all the feed sources.  SO MANY bagged feeds that are advertised as save for IR horses are definitely not!  Most are too high in sugar, starch, fat, iron--all things that can worsen IR.  

So, get your CH up!  And go out there and take some pictures of Jazz's feet!  Follow the instructions in the link I gave you.  Our hoof guru can do markups for you on the photos to help guide you with your trim.  Meanwhile, once you join ECH8, go the photos section and look at other albums and study the mark ups in those.  Lavinia has done many, many markups and you can see the success people have had following the guidelines.  You can at least get an idea of what an optimal trim should look like, and compare that to what Jazz's feet look like.  These things will give you something to do and concentrate on.  Many on this list have had to find new vets and/or farriers, or have started trimming their own horses when they couldn't find anyone to do it the way they wanted/needed.

The DDT/E works!  But it doesn't happen overnight, though the emergency diet can turn some horses around pretty quickly.  Some horses take longer than others or need tighter control of their diet.  They all have different levels of insulin resistance, so what your IR pony may tolerate may be too much for Jazz.  We want to help you help Jazz and we are here to support you.  Like Lorna said, many of us know exactly what you are struggling with!  I found this group after years of struggling with laminitis/founder in my pony.  But not one episode since I found this group and put the DDT/E's into practice.

 I totally empathize with the mud situation--it's like that here too!  Hang in there!  We know it's not easy.  The collective tears that the people in this group have shed over their horses could probably flood an ocean.

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ 
Re: Need some help with my mare

tara sullivan
 

Hi Dr. Kellon.  I didn't mean to suggest that Dr. G disregarded the SAA result.  I was totally disheartened and just want everything to corroborate a progression to health.  She felt that it is an indication that we are keeping a lid on the infection-afterall, we started with 2200+.  I think she was trying to keep my spirits up.

I posted Divina's latest cbc and chemistry.  She is holding her own.  Rbcs rising but so is GGT.  Glad to see glucose not over the top.  Temp still undulating.  It rose to 102.6 last night and same this morning.  Legs a little filled.  Eating and drinking ok.  Mare just seemed to have a headache?  No headpressing against the stall....just on me for a good while.  So I gave her 3cc banamine.  Temp started to drop in 10 minutes and her whole countenance perked up.

Finally got some feedback from the internist.  Spleen is normal but small intestine is distended.  Recommends a rectal/ultrasound.  That might happen today.

Tara and Divina

NY 2015

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