Hi Lavinia,

I am just about ready to post an update since last week to fill everyone in and ask my ever-changing questions.  I fixed up my case history and have a question out to LeeAnne about it but I believe its there; just can't delete or over-write the version that I added things to or get the yellow high lites out.

Short answer is on Friday last week, I did the PRP (platelet rich plasma) AND pulled a ton of blood for a bunch of tests.  When I got to the last request of doing X-rays, I forgot that I had to pull her shoes.  Thats how overloaded I was by that point, trying to explain tactfully why I was doing all those tests and at same time, adding in the PRP.   My vet gave me a long hard look, and said "that isn't going to happen today".  LOL.  It was very busy at the barn and we were lucky to get done what we did in the midst of the place getting ready the next day to host 1,000+ people on the grounds for a blues fest.  

I have little doubt after re-reading your comments and the article forwarded to me by Dr. K that Ruby likely has sinkers!  No wonder her feet are killing her.  I have the appt with the new blacksmith on Thursday so if he pulls the shoes (which seems like a good idea to me as I have at least 2 months of hand and tack walking ahead of us and I can control the footing to avoid stones), I will get those X-rays as soon as I can broach that visit with my vet.  

Thanks so much for remembering about Ruby's poor feet!

Mauri 

Elverson, PA

2/16

Hi Lavinia,

I thought I replied a bit ago, but I seem to have lost the posting.  So I am sending again.

Last Friday, I did not get X rays done as I did the PRP (platelet rich plasma) in the LF sesamoidean ligament and pulled a ton of blood.  I asked to do the X rays, but forgot I need to pull the shoes.  It was just too much to get done in one day.  I have an appt with the new blacksmith this Thursday and I think there is a good chance he will pull the shoes.  If so, then I will try to get my vet out again and get the x rays done asap.  After re-reading your comments and re-reading the article forwarded by Dr. K I have little doubt Ruby's P3 has sunk!  Hoping to get this addressed by the new blacksmith, but treading lightly with him as I understand he does not like to be told what the problems are but rather he tells you…he is highly regarded and just hoping he is on the same page with us...

I have updated my CH but the old one is still there too.  Have an email out to LeeAnne to get some help about that.  I started getting back my blood test results so will be posting about that too as I have lots of questions; results show she now has a dx of cushings :-(.  More to follow.

Thanks for remembering about Ruby's feet!

Mauri 

Elverson, PA

2/16

I've joined this group having recently joined the DSLD group and been told that many DSLD horses are either IR or PPID.

I didn't think my horse was either, but having called my vet office to get the numbers I find that my 18YO QH gelding came back with a ACTH level of 63 in October 2014 in the UK with a reference level of 47 lab was Liphook, UK). I was told by the vet he was borderline and they did not diagnose PPID. I am now wondering with the subsequent diag of DSLD whether I should be treating him for PPID - he is a chronic sinker and wears hoof boots constantly on his front feet because his soles are thin - but, having just started the DSLD treatment trial (AAKG and Jiaogulan) I don't want to change too many things at once.

I am aware there are loads of files and links to read, but along with all the DSLD stuff, and work, my brain is slightly overloaded at the moment :-(

Vikki

Worcestershire, England

June 2016

Hi Mauri,

Did you end up having any xrays done on Friday?
--

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team

Hi Cheryl,

I happen to have draft crosses and regular abscessing is not common in healthy feet.

Warning: Soapbox moment here...

Abscesses in any horse on a regular basis point to something out-of-whack that is driving them. Unfortunately, too many drafts have their feet left way too long and flared (whether in shoes or bare) because of the mistaken belief that just because they are larger means their feet must be of a certain minimum size, regardless of what the horse's genetics have programmed them to be. Their feet need to be trimmed using the same guidelines that are used for any other equine so the hoof capsule tightly supports the internal structures.
--

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team

How long has he had a slow feeder?  Which hay is he eating and how much of it daily (pounds)?  How much beet pulp?

His T4 has tested above normal on two tests.  If he turns out to be eating adequate calories, would suggest repeating thyroid testing.
--

Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Owner 2001

I wanted to let you know that the Stabul Nuggets are now available through TractorSupply.com. This is TSC's online store, just type Stabul Nuggets in their search box. They can be shipped to your house or to your local store.

The Nuggets are now available in six flavors.

Thanks

Randy

NuZu Feed 08/10

Hello everyone!

I like the new forum format. 

So Po is slowly losing weight and I'm not sure why. He's not being worked regularly (or particularly hard when he is worked), I just had a fecal done and he's clear, he's up-to-date on dental issues, and he gets free choice hay in slow feeders 24/7. I would say his body condition is currently 3, or maybe a 3.5. I can clearly see ribs, his hips are pretty prominent, vertebrae along the spine can be seen, and his tailhead is kinda prominent. He just looks bony to me. Some of that is just a thin paso fino, but some of it is he's just thin and I don't know why. For a while I had my other horse in the dry lot with Po during the day to give Po some mental stimulation and more movement. I stopped that cuz he started looking too skinny. Problem is, I stopped that a couple months ago and he still looks too skinny. He seems to be happy, and asks to go out in the pasture in the evening to be with my other horse, and even trots or canters out.  I don't know what to do. Give him BP twice a day instead of once? I'm super leery of adding oats since he's not in heavy work. 

TIA,

Coral

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Coral%20and%20Poseido

--

Coral & Po

Sept 2013

South Texas

Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Owner 2001

Hi Livinia

i have uploaded hoof pictures. 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1205&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

I ran out of a bit of light at the end of my day but did the best I could. Washed his feet and used the best ground we have. I don't have any concrete on my property unfortunately. Not sure why some pictures loaded up sideways. I know his heels are close together. Barefoot trimmers talked about that. He has worn shoes all his life except for when he was very young and when I tried barefoot for 2.5 years. I think someone has told me that shoes keep the heels in but I can see the last nail is well away from the heel area, in fact possibly not even further back from the half way mark on the side so I wondered how shoes could pinch heels. Maybe I interpreted something wrong that was said to me. 

It seems I need to get a retest for cushings and possibly up the pergolyde which will give him the basis for improvement from there.

thanks for your help.

from Julia and riley

perth, western australia

may 1016.

Mmm, won't worry about the iron testing for now...

It it was in the feedxl program that shows Maxisoy as having iron. I did a little test and put 1kg of Maxisoy and 1kg of Speedibeet and it gave me the results of 1,149mg of iron and that being 66% coming from sb and 34%  from Maxisoy. Not sure if I can send you a link as it is under my log on to the program. I can take a screen shot and email some info to you?

A friend just told me she gets Barley straw for her IR horse as it doesn't have any sugar in it. True? She also feeds lupins. Her horse is getting on in age and she says the lupins keep the weight on. 

Ive added hoof pictures.  I'll let Livinia know. I ran out of light but did the best I could. Some of the pictures loaded up sideways. 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1205&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

From julia and riley

perrh, western australia

may 2016

Totally agree with everything that Nancy has already mentioned. You won't be able to get good sole depth or any reversal of the sinking if those toes do not get backed up so the hoof capsule break over aligns with where the coffin bone is trying to break over. There is no living tissue anywhere in that toe wedge so nothing to be concerned about.

Over time doesn't work unless the interval between trims is short (think weekly) - otherwise, the pathology is always racing ahead of your attempts to correct it.

Those pockets could be empty, abscess-filled, old blood, ?? Won't know til you get there. Once it drains (if it needs to) it will make Elsa hugely more comfortable. Betadine, Numotizine, clean wrap once you see what's there.
--

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team

Hi Vicky,

Thanks for getting all those xrays and pix up. To me, it looks like all that you're seeing is laminar wedge that is breaking away - nothing to worry about in the "seedy toe" category but it does say the trim is not optimal. Can see some flaring in at least one of the dorsal views and there was quite a bit of excess toe in the xrays from Dec 2015.

A full set of photos of all the feet would be needed if you'd like some specific trim input. Here's the link to a helpful explanation of how to take good ones:

http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html

And here is the link to Samson's album. Really helps us to have it included in your posts.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1226
--

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team

Not Lavinia here but wanted to add my experience. 

Backing up toes are needed to keep leverage from torn laminae at bay.  If she won't do it all at once, then you or she will need to continue to follow up, almost daily.

I have hit gas pockets many times in the 13 years of helping my gelding, even opening up sole to relieve pressure and remove suspected infection.  Flushing with betadine and using the nutmotizine with vet wrap daily kept any problems at bay until it was clear we were in the clear. 

Usually things were dry when opened.  Perhaps might find old dark blood from previous assault. Relief was huge.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
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ecirhorse.org

Hi Julia,

Questions are good- don’t ever hesitate to ask them. It’s how we all learn.

What you described with Riley- could be symptoms of iron overload- or not or partly.  Red in tail could be mineral imbalance; dull coat could be diet or PPID related, allergic reactions could be related to a poor immune system due to metabolic issues not under control, anaemia- it’s very rare for a horse to be truly anaemic, Tendon issues could also be related to PPID not under control, etc. The beauty of this all is that it can all be corrected/managed by getting the DDTE on board.

I’ve not come across any analysis that says Maxisoy has iron in it- could you show me the link?  It’s possible I’ve missed that- however if that ‘s the case-  I’d imagine that the amounts would be small enough that it would be considered negligible or manageable through diet balancing.

To do a full iron panel, the blood needs to be sent to  KSU in the States for serum iron, ferritin and TIBC in order to determine body wide iron status. These are the tests that are used for all creatures (people, dogs, canaries), not just equines. KSU is the only lab that is able to do the equine ferritin, however. Water can have an impact on soaking hay as well- depending on ph.  If you soak in alkaline or neutral water, the iron can be rinsed off.  If you soak in alkaline water you can solubilize iron and drive it into the hay.

Hygain Zero can be used as a taste tempter - not a complete meal. I’ve noticed they have dropped the fat content to 4% which is good, but the protein is still a tad too high at 15%. It also has legumes listed in its ingredients- but doesn’t state which ones. Some legumes are ok- some are not.  There are plenty of brands that claim they are suitable for metabolic horses, but once you learn to read and understand the labels- you'll see that things are not all that they seem. I also wouldn’t use Easisport either- some of the ingredients- lucerne leaf, canola oil & extruded full fat soybean are not suitable.

Regarding the pergolide- In the States- liquid pergolide has been known to have short shelf life & not be stable after a short period of time.  The same is to be thought of our liquid pergolide.   I used it at the start of my pony Jacks journey, as that was all that was available at that stage. Now we have a few more options, and it will depend on your vet, dose rate required etc as to which way to go. Prascend is now available in 1mg tablets, if you need to dose over 2 mg is starts to get costly. Bova compounding http://bovavet.com.au/ can make capsules to a taylor made dose and are quite cost effective. As one of my boys was on 13mg at the end, capsules were the only way to go for me & I did notice a massive change for the better when I changed from liquid to capsules. At his disease progressed I could have the dose rate adjusted to reflect his needs. Pergolide is an S4 medication that requires a script from your vet if you wanted to get the capsules. If you wanted the Prascend tablets- then they should be able to order that in for you from their veterinary wholesaler.

I’ll work on sending those photos

Pauline

Geelong. Vic

Australia Aug 07

ECIR Mod/Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas

Courtenay, BC Canada

Elsa,

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sharon%20and%20Elsa

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=987