Date   

Re: Pet health pharmacy

Nancy C
 

Haven't read it yet, but on my screen for later.  Not sure HOW far you want to go. It's 170 pages.  :-)

http://www.marketresearchstore.com/report/global-pergolide-mesylate-salt-industry-research-report-2015-24271

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Mod
February 2003

Only 66 more days to the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference, Georgetown TX, Nov 6-8
www.nolaminitis.org


---In EquineCushings@..., <ThePitchforkPrincess@...> wrote :

  

Is there not a way we can find out more accurately where pergolide is made?





Re: Wondering about things

 

Why wonder? Simply rejoice!!

I have two IRs: one is as stoic as the day is long. She must've had sub-clinically laminitis for years that I didnt recognize until her PPID was diagnosed and I felt how *really* sound she could be -- for example, yesterday we trotted 90 mins all on gravel roads, sound as a dollar. She is barefoot and has always had very strong, well-conformed feet. She has never taken a lame step in the 11 years Ive owned her, even when her insulin was completely uncontrolled last fall.

My other IR, is as sensitive a horse as Ive ever met. He is the type where his entire limb will swell due to a tiny scratch. He shows overt laminitic signs when insulin gets into the 40s. This gelding also has poor conformation, travels crookedly, and very thin soles, so he frequently has sore feet that I guard fiercely.

So part of the answer to your question, LJ, comes down to individual stoicism & pain thresholds. Im guessing you've also not dealt with laminitis, in the sense that the horse is seemingly fine one day, and in full blown crisis the next. Never, ever, let your guard down.

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014

PS...how is the riding going with Jesse? :))


Re: Pet health pharmacy

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Companies come and go all the time.

Do a Google search for pergolide mesylate suppliers; e.g.:

Pergolide Mesylate, Pergolide Mesylate Suppliers and Manufacturers at Alibaba.com

  Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com

EC Co-owner

Feb 2001




-


Re: Pet health pharmacy

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

I think I've finally found the source message  (#103801)  about where pergolide comes from: 
Eastern Europe and China
The message was from 2008 and posted by Dr. Frank K. Reilly equinemedsurg.com

Is there not a way we can find out more accurately where pergolide is made?

- ​LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist 03/2004

 

Are YOU in the Pergolide Dosage Database?

​​
   
View the Database Stats 
Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials





Re: Pet health pharmacy

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

Ha ha!  I have just the thing as long as Canadian inserts are the same as American. 
It was so small I needed to take 2 pictures:
Insert part one:

Insert part two:

Box Front:


- ​LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist 03/2004

 

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database?

​​
   
View the Database Stats 
Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials





Re: Wondering about things

Pamela Bramell
 

LJ,

I wondered about the same thing for a while.  I had adopted an older appy pony that was blind and hadn't shed out for at least 3 years.  Was obviously cushings.  He was living on mowed (YIKES) pasture and pears from a pear tree along with some feed and hay.  Although I don't think there was much hay eating going on with all of that sweet grass and pears.  When I picked him up from his home he had a small crest and it was hard.  I brought him home and put him on a diet suitable for IR since that's what my other horses are and added the pergolide.  Although he never foundered, I often thought he was on the verge of it because of his crest.  After a few weeks here his crest went away and he has never had it since.  It only takes one thing to tip over the edge into laminitis.  I believe he had low grade laminitis.  He's a grand old appaloosa pony that just keeps trucking along, so would have taken a lot to see any indication of pain from him.  Just because he wasn't showing physical signs doesn't mean something wasn't brewing.

That's my 2 cents.

Pam in Va
12/10
Frosty/STory/Butters/Shaqiraj


Wondering about things

lj friedman
 

Before I started treating Jesse on or around January, he was full cushings.. heavy coat.. sweating etc.. I didnt know he had a problem and almost daily. I let him pasture on grass for an hour and fed him tons of carrots.. Of course, now he is tight.  My question..  why didnt I have any problems like laminitis.etc like so many on here have?   lj friedman san diego nov 2014.


ECHistory8



Re: Seasonal rise

takarri@...
 

 

HI Barbara,

 

I agree it can be a bit frustrating at times, trying to navigate Yahoo- learning a different way of horse keeping and taking in all the good advice given.  We don’t ask you to “jump through hoops “for the sheer fun of it, the DDTE protocol works, as is evident from the thousands of people in this group.  We only have the horses’ best interest at heart.

 

We’d be more than happy to help you, but you also need to help us by filling out that dreaded case history- it will make is so much easier for the volunteers to give you the correct information. Saves us going back and forth with questions if it’s all written out for us. If you have any trouble with the case history I’d be more than happy to help you.

 

It sounds like you know what the protocol is and what is really required to avoid another laminitis attack- yet you seem to be playing with fire by not following it. That is really the only way that you’re going to avoid another attack.

 

I don’t know how much a jigger is in weight- but regardless- the Purina pellets aren’t suitable for her – the starch is 11% and sugar at 7%- combined = 18%. The total ESC/S needs to be under 10%. . Can you switch her over to something safer like OTCB cubes, soy hull pellets, molasses free beet pulp or NuZu Stabul 1? Having her on pasture is also not suitable- especially at this time of the year unless the muzzle is closed and she has no access. I know you know this. Have you had the pasture analysed to know what vitamins and minerals she’s getting and what she’s missing out on?  Even pasture can be deficient- so that’s no guarantee her needs are being met. At least you’re soaking the hay.

 

In regards to your question, I would be inclined to hit it in both fronts. Restrict pasture and increase her pergolide. When her last test and what were the numbers?

 

I totally understand the frustration; no one said that it was necessarily going to be easy to make the changes required.  It involves investment - Investment physically, emotionally and financially.  Please take the time to analyse her lifestyle- it’s important for Lilys long term outcome.  For me, I found that the easiest way to tackle it was to pick one task at a time, complete it and move on to the next one. One step at a time. The group is here to support you.

 

Pauline & Spur

Sth West Vic

Australia Aug 07

EC Primary Response

http://tinyurl.com/7qbdyas



---In EquineCushings@..., <vincentbab19@...> wrote :
  
  But, I could try to restrict her grazing in the fall if this was very important, OR, as I would rather do, up the dose of pergolide at this time, if this was indicated.  Any suggestions?



Re: seeking chasteberry advice

s laurino
 

I used it (liquid form) to help with my mare's spring and fall heats.  It did seem to lessen their intensity and her apparent pain.  I can't totally remember (it was years ago) but I think I used it year round.

Sita
Va ~2009


Re: seeking chasteberry advice

s laurino
 

Forgot to add, to answer your question, my mare was controlled IR; without this group she would have been *very* IR.  The chaste tree berry I added to her diet may have helped with that as well, though as I said I used it for her hormonal heat cycles.

Sita
Va


Re: Pet health pharmacy

Leigh Jacobs
 

Dr. Kellon,
Since I was so busy researching my way to an answer to Lisa I did not see your response. :/
Am I correct in understanding that it is the rulings of the courts that have prevented the FDA from going after compounding pharmacies? Is there an appeal in progress anywhere?
Leigh, Ace and Shadow
2011 AZ



On Sunday, August 30, 2015 3:26 PM, "drkellon@... [EquineCushings]" <EquineCushings@...> wrote:


 

--In EquineCushings@..., wrote :

I seem to remember (though I cannot quite find it) a discussion that mentioned that as of 2012 or so, ALL compounded pergolide would need to be made from, essentially, Prascend.
= = = = = = = = =

That is what the FDA says, but two federal courts have ruled against the FDA claim that drugs cannot legally be compounded from bulk material - in this case bulk powder pergolide mesylate.

If the compounder is giving you a product that actually contains the dosage as claimed, the only difference  between compounded and Prascend is that the Prascend is stable for longer because of the coating and the blister packaging.  If a compounder did take it out of the packaging and grind it up to make compounded, it would lose that advantage.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001




Seasonal rise

Barbara Vincent
 

I'm afraid I get a bit addled by the number of steps required and hoops to jump through on this site, but this recreant would still like  help trying to avoid fall founder.   I did make a start on a CH form last spring, and I had several tests done, and repeated, but for some couldn't read or understand the results (leptin, etc.) from Cornell sent by my vet.
  My 8 year old mini horse, Lily, had laminitis around Thanksgiving last year.  At first I thought it was due to premature removal of her grazing muzzle; however, her ACTH indicated Cushings.  She has done well on 1 mg pergolide--at first Prascend, currently Wedgewood pharmacy Gourmeds.  She shed out this summer and  was peppy--her feet were not painful.  I pony, drive, or longe her 3-4X a week, so she gets more exercise than many a mini, and she is pretty well muscled.  I do let her graze, with a muzzle, a least 1/2 day; she also get the odd carrot, and a jigger or two of Miniature Horse Purina pellets.  I know I don't follow the regime prescribed here, but we do soak the hay and try to cut down on sugar.  Not being a very quick study, I haven't found the time to analyze everything in her lifestyle.  I also am a whole foods person for myself, and would rather let her get her vitamins from pasture than restrict her and supplement. 
  But, I could try to restrict her grazing in the fall if this was very important, OR, as I would rather do, up the dose of pergolide at this time, if this was indicated.  Any suggestions?



Re: Pet health pharmacy

Leigh Jacobs
 

Hi Lisa,
Currently, it is my understanding that both Prascend and compounded pergolide are made from pergolide mesylate.  Both BI(Manufacturer of Prascend) and compounding pharmacies make their products from bulk sources and in fact may even use the same sources.  Logic dictates that compounded products made from Prascend would cost the same or more than Prascend. I don't think this is the case.  (My Ace's capsules of 3.5mg would be close to $7.50 each versus the $0.32)
I found where you found the statement to the vets about having scripts compounded using Prascend. It is a product safety information sheet.
CFR530.13 (Current as of today)
I read it 3 times trying to figure out what it is saying and what I get from it: is that it is stating that you may compound a new concentration of a drug from a concentration that is already approved. 530.13.a It specifically states "Nothing in this part shall be construed as permitting compounding from bulk drugs."  BUT it does not say that you can not. And I suspect that somewhere else in the CFR(Code of Federal Regulations) there is an ambiguous statement that allows compounding pharmacies to compound from bulk sources. I think that could be found in using CFR530.30(animals not used for food) that then refers you back up to 530.20.a.1  Otherwise, I think the compounding pharmacies would be notifying their clients of a change in the rules and to expect an increase in costs especially if the only source is to be Prascend. 
In the FDA releases running from 2007-2012, the last one (May 2012) stated the following:
"As a result of the recent approval for PRASCEND, FDA says it will no longer exercise enforcement discretion over the pharmacy compounding of pergolide for use in animals." And I am not quite sure how to interpret that except to make the observation that they have not, to my limited knowledge, gone after any of the compounding pharmacies that our clinic uses. Doesn't mean that they won't.
I can't find anything dated later than 2012 from the FDA.
Ok Lisa.....you made me work today!  By having to research what you wrote, I have become more informed.  I don't for a moment think I found everything, but it was a good start.
Leigh, Ace and Shadow
2011 AZ



On Sunday, August 30, 2015 1:34 PM, "mostlyaggies@... [EquineCushings]" wrote:


 
Leigh (and all),

Being a remedial PPID student I am going to need The Final Word on this to clear up my current confusion!

I seem to remember (though I cannot quite find it) a discussion that mentioned that as of 2012 or so, ALL compounded pergolide would need to be made from, essentially, Prascend.

Here is the wording on the FDA website (addressed to veterinarians) that would seem to say this:
You may have specific patients that need pergolide in strengths or dosage forms not offered by PRASCEND. In these limited cases, pergolide can be legally compounded by using FDA-approved PRASCEND as the source of the active pharmaceutical ingredient. Please find additional requirements for legal animal drug compounding atTitle 21, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 530.13.
So if all compounders (or at least all legal compounders) are starting with Prascend as the base compound, then wouldn't we be talking apples to apples if we are comparing Prascend dosages to compounded dosages? I could understand a compounder being extremely specific if using bulk parent drug that had a different name and/or was different in strength from the branded drug, but as I understand it, that is not supposed to be the case with pergolide.
I welcome any and all clarification on this topic--at my age I can reprogram my brain, but I need things to be spelled out clearly if I am doing a wipe and erasing previous information! Thanks,
Lisa in TX
Coming out of the closet with Zippy, Rita, and Bunny - IR
June 2010






Re: Pet health pharmacy

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


--In EquineCushings@..., <mostlyaggies@...> wrote :

I seem to remember (though I cannot quite find it) a discussion that mentioned that as of 2012 or so, ALL compounded pergolide would need to be made from, essentially, Prascend.
= = = = = = = = =

That is what the FDA says, but two federal courts have ruled against the FDA claim that drugs cannot legally be compounded from bulk material - in this case bulk powder pergolide mesylate.

If the compounder is giving you a product that actually contains the dosage as claimed, the only difference  between compounded and Prascend is that the Prascend is stable for longer because of the coating and the blister packaging.  If a compounder did take it out of the packaging and grind it up to make compounded, it would lose that advantage.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Pet health pharmacy

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Both Prascend and compounded pergolide are made with the same base drug - pergolide mesylate.

Many are told that 1 mg of Prascend is better than 1 mg (or even any dose) of compounded pergolide because it is presumed the compounded is not full potency, based on studies that showed compounded breaks down quickly and/or may not be as claimed when first purchased.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


--


Re: seeking chasteberry advice

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Vicky,

Have you found our web site yet?


Grab a cup of tea and some down time,and have a good read.It is chock full of information ,all in one place.
Factual information.
Chastetree Berry is  often used to help with Cushing's *symptoms*.Recommended medication,though,to treat the disease ,is Pergolide.
IR is treated by diet/management, but not medication.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf




>May I ask, is this something that you can use for the IR horse that's not on pergoglide or any medications??   I heard it will help with IR horses in general.


                                                                                                                





 


                                                                                                                



Re: Looking for some help and direction for IR Pony

Jlee DOrtona
 

Thanks, Lavinia!
Just to clarify, Huck was only ever on previcox once daily. His old dose was 1/4 of a 227mg 1x per day. Then, as advised, I dropped him to 1/2 of a 57mg 1x per day. He's been on this dose while I've been introducing PQ. Starting tomorrow, he'll be on 1/4 of the 57mg daily and within 2 weeks, he'll be completely off previcox and on full dose of PQ.

Now, "grazing muzzle taped shut", what exactly does that mean? Tape over the hole at bottom?

So, keep everything, as is, diet wise for now? And yes, I just soak the cubes enough to soften and for all supplements to stick. He gets them unsoaked for his mid day meal.

I'll get some new pics of hooves up this week. And I'll stick to hand walking in one boot or another as he is not totally comfortable walking barefoot yet.

Thanks to everyone who has commented! This all has been tremendously helping both Huck and me.

Jenilee & Huck
NY, October 2013


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Jenilee%20and%20Huckleberry%20Case%20History/


Re: stress, cortisol levels, depression?

vicky monen
 

Thank you so very much for responding and giving me clarity!!!! You are the best!


I have read so many things lately that cause so much confusion with someone new to this entire process and IR situation.  Unfortunately, I ordered 4 books recently and they all are based on the stress and cortisol, due to limiting hay!  I ordered the wrong books with the wrong information!  ugghhhh


I have never even heard of IR and EMD  until July 2015, when my boy was stricken with laminitis for the first time. (that I know of)


I will continue to ask  you questions as we go along and please forgive my ignorance in many Instances!  All due to no experience and learning as I go! 


Thanks again for clarifying this for me!!!


Vicky Monen and Samson

Ga, Aug 2015

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Vicky%20and%20Samson/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHoof/photos/albums/1698376942


                                                                                                                                                



Re: Short strided sole bruising & Abscesses

corrine haffner
 

Hi Lavinia 

I'am not sure on the getting sick part,he seems depressed but think pain might be playing a part in that? Becoming lame on hinds is kinda puzzling,i didn't change much on his hind feet pretty much just beveled them. 

I can see him having issues on fronts i changed things there,but as you know fronts are far from being close to ideal. Also haven't had another abscess pop now for close to a week,still doing numotazine and soaking once a day on fronts. Haven't messed with back feet he threatens to kick,gets real crabby about his hind end being touched,so i haven't pushed that issue.

Did let him know it's not ok to kick and threaten no matter how bad you hurt.  Do i test him now for lymes? or wait and do it on re test day for ACTH?? Not sure we are dealing with lyme dease but not positive,i know it can present different every time,been through this many many times,with other gelding.

Thank's 
Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014


Re: Cornell test results questions

sincere121 <sincere121@...>
 

Kerry,

What you are saying makes sense and I agree. I was just wondering what exactly "compensated IR" means as opposed to a horse that is "IR".

Buddy had one episode of laminitis fall 2013.  Last fall, he was sore in heels for an unknown reason (improper trim in my opinion) and vet recommended egg bars which improved his movement until his heels started contacting horribly after 2 rounds of shoeing. Pulled shoes, took winter break. 

Did great this spring and summer up until end of July where he came up super lame left rear. Vet and farrier  (and myself) thought abscess. Three weeks later after trying every soaking and drawing agent around, farrier dug it out providing relief.  Wrapped and protected it for 10 days - farrier came back yesterday and opened up another smaller pocket of pus in left rear and put on a cast.  He also did an aggressive trim on his fronts removing a lot of dead sole that just wouldn't come out on its own and bringing the toe way back. We knew he would be tender on the exposed soles so I put Buddy in some Easy Boot trails and he is moving around well.

I think the main problem in Buddy's case has been an improper trim leading to an extremely underrun heel and too long of a toe causing mechanical stresses leading to abscesses and periodic lameness. 

Switched farriers and am confident we are on the right track in that respect. 

Otherwise. .. he has been doing well under tight dietary control and I will continue to keep him out of the pasture for now and on a careful diet with supplementation. 

Is it fair to say that, IF he is free from problems once his trim is properly established and he has been sound for several months, we could possibly go back to short periods of time in the pasture with a grazing muzzle?  

Thanks for your help! 
Kelly and Buddy 
2014 Illinois 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Kelly%20and%20Buddy/?soc_src=mail&soc_trk=ma
>
> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1539713942


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