Date   

Re: NOW: Jasper( WAS: ODTBC Sugar/Starch)

Nancy C
 

Corinne

I am away but agree with Lavinia and Lorna. We're he here I'd be working on pergolide.

Nancy c in NH
ECIR Mod
February 2003


Re: Question on seasonal rise testing for two horses (Lorna and Lavinia?)

Lydia Lawson
 

I got the test results back on Babe. Her ACTH is at 86. Pretty high I guess but remembering she initially tested at 197! She is on one tab of Prescend once a day and has been since the beginning. Here is her case history
but I looked at it and her diet is a lot different now due to the fact most of her teeth are not functional any longer :-) I did not test her ACTH prior to the seasonal rise period and I guess I should have to see what has been going on prior to this but I didn't. I'd love to get recommendations for her. She is not sore but looks like she's dropped a few pounds over the last month. She actually looks and feels pretty amazing for a horse nearing her 36th birthday!

ECHistory


Lydia lawson
CA 2008


Re: NOW: Jasper( WAS: ODTBC Sugar/Starch)

corrine haffner
 

I'll start him back on ODTB cubes see how he reacts, before upping pergolide does that sound ok ?? That way only one thing is being change at a time. He's on 3 mg how much more should i go up??

I know the treats stopped at same time i stopped giving the ODTB cubes. So could of possibly been the stopping of treat made the difference.Will find out tomorrow if in fact cubes are a problem for him.

Corrine & Jasper
MN 4/2014


Re: NOW: Jasper( WAS: ODTBC Sugar/Starch)

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 


I agree with Lorna, Kerry that raising the perg dose seems to make sense. If this was one of mine, I would up the peregolide now and see what the results say in two weeks. His really good reaction the last time the perg dose was raised points in that direction and the PU/PD, lameness point toward his PPID still being under-controlled.

He was being fed sugar and apples, which stopped at the same time as the cubes were discontinued, so no way to really know whether the cubes were the only cause or not. Restarting them may tell you but if you also up the pergolide at the same time then again, not a clear answer.

It is just so hard because there are a number of things that aren't quite perfect going on at once and every time you try to change only one thing something else also gets added/changed to muddy the waters.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Re: seeking chasteberry advice

Casey James <macivor19@...>
 


Thanks, Claudia, for the very helpful information on CTB!  I wonder if it’s best to start 2 T in late winter, then quit when the horse sheds out?  Seems like some sellers say it should given all the time. So many decisions to be made for our horses and we’re so lucky to have this group to turn to.

casey oregon 2015

.
 


Re: NOW: Jasper( WAS: ODTBC Sugar/Starch)

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

Since it's been brought up do i increase pergolide now ? Or wait till after blood draw and result are back?

When i posted earlier today that he was improved after being on emergency diet,maybe ODTB cubes were the cause of him being more sore/lame maybe not. If they weren't the cause then why the improvement after being taken off the cubes?  Guess the test will be in the putting him back on ODTB cubes and see if he come up more sore/lame. 

I also know his hoofs are far from ideal on the trim,working on that, Lavinia is doing markups for me. His hoofs aren't going to be a fast fix,going to take time. 

It's all very frustrating try to change diet so its balanced and tight mineral wise,only to have him crash and become dead lame.Seems we just go round and round in what seems to be a vicious cycle,at the end of the day i feel like i'v failed my horse:(

Paula that data you posted is very informative thanks for posting that.


Re: NOW: Jasper (WAS ODTBC Sugar/Starch)

Paula Hancock
 


Hi Lorna,

Here you go.

All blood was pulled around 9 AM.  


Data:

(insulin tested at Cornell, hay analysis by EquiAnalytical) 

(Note: by RISQI, any insulin over 20 indicates uncontrolled IR)


2014Jan08     Hay 10.3% ESC + starch           insulin   83

2014Apr15    Hay 6%                                     insulin  18

2014Jun09     Hay 6%                                    insulin   15

2014Sep02     Hay 8%                                    insulin  25.5

2014Dec22    Hay 6 and 8% mixed                  insulin  9.9

2015Mar11    Hay 6 and 8% not mixed             insulin  27.3


Best regards,

--Paula with Cory IR and Onyx IR

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR 2014

NRC plus 2011


ECHistory8





Re: seeking chasteberry advice

Claudia Goodman
 

casey,
you're best off getting advice from one of the moderators, but I will briefly let you know that I started CTB in early summer this year when it was clear my mare had not fully shed. Last year, she shed beautifully earlier, so it seemed she needed help in 2015. (Both summers her ACTH was well controlled with pergolide.) 

After a few weeks on CTB (2 Tbsp daily), she had a shorter coat, and has become the shiny, dappled bay she was meant to be. I just cut back to 1 tbsp daily, and will see how that affects her before stopping. 

Claudia & Silhouette 2014 Central Coast of California https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Claudia%20%26%20Silhouette/




Re: NOW: Jasper( WAS: ODTBC Sugar/Starch)

 

Thanks Lorna, I didnt copy & paste your post, was in a mad rush, and couldn't remember verbatim 

Thank you,
Kerry in NY
Sept 14

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 2, 2015, at 8:45 PM, windybriars@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

 

>>Lorna mentioned she thought an increase was indicated.
This is what I said, just to avoid misunderstandings:

Sounds like a reasonable suggestion to me. 


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf








Re: NOW: Jasper( WAS: ODTBC Sugar/Starch)

Lorna Cane
 

>>Lorna mentioned she thought an increase was indicated.
This is what I said, just to avoid misunderstandings:

Sounds like a reasonable suggestion to me. 


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf








Re: NOW: Jasper (WAS ODTBC Sugar/Starch)

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Paula,

Great data.
Can you attach dates to those results?

Thanks.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf




Data:

(insulin tested at Cornell, hay analysis by EquiAnalytical) (Note: by RISQI, any insulin over 20 indicates uncontrolled IR)

 

Hay 10.3% ESC + starch         insulin   83

Hay 6%                                     insulin  18

Hay 6%                                    insulin   15

Hay 8%                                    insulin  25.5

Hay 6 and 8% mixed                insulin  9.9

Hay 6 and 8% not mixed          insulin  27.3

 



Re: ODTBC Sugar/Starch

lj friedman
 

Dr k so correct about tone on email. You can never ever tell. So I always assume everything is great and everyone is kind as everyone is kind and great on this list. LJ Freeman San Diego nov 2014


Re: NOW: Jasper( WAS: ODTBC Sugar/Starch)

 

Corrine writes:

....."He never misses a dose, and no another horse isn't getting his meds. I give his pergolide by hand so i know he eats it.".....



>>> Ok, excellent news Corrine.  Now that we've established that Jasper is absolutely receiving the 3mg pergolide for a couple of weeks now and still appears uncontrolled, is the consensus to increase the pergolide at this point, or wait for blood to be pulled on the 14th?

Lorna mentioned she thought an increase was indicated.
FWIW, I also think yes, try an increase, but I'd like to know what Dr Kellon's opinion is as well as others following the case. 


Kerry in NY
Sept 2014



Re: NOW: Jasper (WAS ODTBC Sugar/Starch)

Paula Hancock
 


To Kathy, Dr. Kellon and others,

No one is saying the balanced hay cubes are a problem for most IR horses.  They are a very valuable option for IR horse care.  If your horse is doing well on them, great!

 

The point is that as Dr. Kellon has said, keep the hay under 10% ESC + starch, but some IR horses need lower.  How much lower?

 

In February 2014, when I asked Ontario Dehy, I was told the ODTB lot number I bought was ~9%.  That fulfills their guarantee of being less than 10% and safe for most IR horses, but I suspected it was not low enough for Cory (then 5 YO Morgan gelding).

 

Data:

(insulin tested at Cornell, hay analysis by EquiAnalytical) (Note: by RISQI, any insulin over 20 indicates uncontrolled IR)

 

Hay 10.3% ESC + starch         insulin   83

Hay 6%                                     insulin  18

Hay 6%                                    insulin   15

Hay 8%                                    insulin  25.5

Hay 6 and 8% mixed                insulin  9.9

Hay 6 and 8% not mixed          insulin  27.3

 

I had the same thought Kerry did about soaked hay instead of hay cubes for Corrine’s Jasper based on my experience.  My Cory’s behavior and symptoms have correlated very well with his insulin level.  Once Jasper’s PPID is under control, Corrine will probably have a much easier time of managing him.  When a horse is in crisis, I would soak hay.

 

If an IR horse is doing well and his test results indicate that he is under good control, keep doing what you are doing and thank your lucky stars and this group.  If not, leave no stone unturned, get the tests you need to determine what your horse’s status is and do what you need to do to get him and keep him healthy.

 

Best regards and all due respect,

--Paula with Cory IR and Onyx IR

ECIR 2014

NRC plus 2010

 

ECHistory8

 



Re: Wedgewood Pharmacy

jamsler707@...
 

It’s just that Wedgewood is in eastern PA & I’m in western PA, But it was still $30 for 1 day shipping.  I hadn’t asked how much it would be from the Pet Health which is, I think, in AZ or someplace out west.  My vet was very irritated at how long it took to get someone on the line so he could prescribe.  I may see about Pet Health next time, with the extreme heat right now & my craziness that I want to get her on this NOW, I wanted to overnight it. 
Thanks,
Julia & Luxy in PA


Re: Wedgewood Pharmacy

jamsler707@...
 

Thanks Barbara , that’s who I ended up ordering from.  The pills vet prescribed are 1 mg, he didn’t want to start with the lower doses & work up.  They are green apple flavored chewable I was told.  They should be here Friday so I can’t wait& the ODTB cubes are supposed to be in next Tuesday.  There was a problem because they come from a different plant that where my local store orders from.  I have Luxy on the Benedryl for her allergies right now & she gobbles those pink tabs right up.I think it is easing the itchiness but not totally relieving it.  I feel such relief that hopefully next week she will feel much better!
Julia & Luxy in PA


Re: NOW: Jasper( WAS: ODTBC Sugar/Starch)

corrine haffner
 

He never misses a dose, and no another horse isn't getting his meds. I give his pergolide by hand so i know he eats it.


Re: NOW: Jasper (WAS ODTBC Sugar/Starch)

 

>>> For my education, is this enough evidence to warrant another increase in pergolide now, instead of waiting until the 9/14 bloodwork?  

Sounds like a reasonable suggestion to me. 
See message 195924, from August 14th, in which Corrine said:
"Hi Just a quick update since i'v upped pergolide more he has started not being a picky eater. He also has perked up attitude wise,starting to get my old jasper back."

-------------------------------------

Corinne,

Has Jasper absolutely, without a doubt, been getting the 3mg pergolide every day since Aug 14th?  Is there any chance he has missed a dose here or there, spit any out, another horse ate it, etc?

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: ODTBC Sugar/Starch

corrine haffner
 

Hi Kerry
<<<Sorry for causing a blow-up!  I merely wanted to offer help to Corinne when I recognized a familiar scenario that happened with my own mare.  As I mentioned, the fact that Jasper is better could be coincidence and that we will never know for sure (unless she wants to reintroduce the cubes...?)>>>
Think it was me who started this whole thing by responding to this post,about jasper being improved since putting on emergency diet. Obviously it's not thought that ODTB cubes can be or are the issue for jasper. Don't get why the improvement since ODTB cubes were stopped?  

He was never on 20lbs or even 15lbs of cubes prior to now,as i stated in last post he's still drinking and peeing excessively so IR/PPID aren't controlled yet. But he's improved so for whatever reason whether it be cubes being eliminated from diet did it, or he just improved because he improved?? 

I'll reintroduce cubes starting tomorrow and see what happens. I do totally appreciate your input/help.Sorry if i caused the apparent uproar here for you not my intent....
Thanks,
Corrine & Jasper
MN 2014


Re: NOW: Jasper (WAS ODTBC Sugar/Starch)

Lorna Cane
 


>>> For my education, is this enough evidence to warrant another increase in pergolide now, instead of waiting until the 9/14 bloodwork?  

Sounds like a reasonable suggestion to me. 
See message 195924, from August 14th, in which Corrine said:
"Hi Just a quick update since i'v upped pergolide more he has started not being a picky eater. He also has perked up attitude wise,starting to get my old jasper back."

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf