Date   

Re: Is APF Pro safe to use if APF is unavailable?

fionn@...
 

My horse seems to do better on the Pro.  Just anecdotal evidence.

Michelle Peck Williams & Fionn
Lexington, Kentucky USA
Joined June 2012
fionn@...

Case history:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/files/Michelle%20Peck%20Williams/

Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/photos/album/867903845/pic/list

Foot Photo album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/1767999070/pic/list






On Sep 10, 2014, at 10:15 AM, threecatfarm@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:

Hi Sue

APF Pro is a different formula from APF.  At one time I was told that APF is what we need for PPID horses. If you call or write Auburn Labs, they are really good about answering questions. 

If your source can get Pro, they should be able to get regular APF as well.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 




-



Re: MIkado Update and looking for advice -new link

feldermannj
 

Here is the link to our case history- hopefully this time it will work! ...I really don't like yahoo neo...
ECHistory7

 


Re: Changing from compounded Pergolide to Prascend

Pamela Bramell
 

Stacy,  Please Please Please take this into careful  consideration.  I had my 30 year old blind cushings pony on 2 mgs of pergolide from thriving pet and he was doing pretty good.  He then had an eye issue (not sure if it was uveitis or not) and I couldn't clear it up.  The vet suggested taking him to 1 mg of prascend because he had seen such good results and we couldn't figure out what more to do.   It was a horrible mistake.  After about 4 months on the prascend I noticed a lot of wasting in the top line and he was not himself.  He was lethargic and didn't yell at me like he did at dinner time. I have no doubt what so ever that he was not controlled. Didn't waste my money on a test because of the symptoms.  I then had to go back to the 2 mgs of pergolide.  I had forgotten that it had taken me several months to get him to the 2 mgs. of pergolide.  I could get him on 1.75 mgs for a month or so and still couldn't get him up to 2 mgs.  Took several months to get him back on the 2 mgs.  I didn't buy the APF for him, which may have helped.  But frankly, I am still kicking myself in the pants for switching him.  1 mg of prascend IS NOT equal to 2 mgs of pergolide, I don't care what argument the vet has for it.  Fortunately laminitis hasn't been a problem for Frosty and I.   His eye issue had cleared up, albeit not from the prascend.  
Just my (not so good) experience
Pam/Frosty/Story/Butters the stubborn pony with Shaqiraj who's lucky she landed here because she's an IR case waiting to happen :)
12/10  Va


Re: Pergolide/Prasend/compounding

Nancy C
 

Meant to add to the issue of veterinary insurance concerns:

Lots of us have offered to put in writing a waiver of liability for the attending vets.  IOW, if something goes wrong with the compound pergolide approach, I won't sue you.   It does not  answer ALL the liability concerns however, personally I found it helpful for my vet to know that I know what their concerns are. An off of a waiver can be helpful in establishing or solidifying  the long term relationship.  

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :


Hi Donna

It is not illegal.

 



 


Re: Pergolide/Prasend/compounding

Nancy C
 


Hi Donna

It is not illegal. To Lisa's points, some vets just buy into the concept put forth by the manufacturer that it IS illegal rather than do the thinking or researching.  This is a good post and a good thread:

Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

 

We have a growing number of members who have reported that the amounts recommended by BI do not control the disease.

Your script should say (I think) xx mg of pergolide mesylate from compound, (ie NOT Prascend).

Pergolide is approved for horses.  Prior to the human version Permax being removed from  market, it was an "off label" use in horses. In 2007, this group was the driving force in working with the FDA to get pergolide mesylate approved for horses.

Members here were also early reporting that forms of compound such as suspention were not holding viability. 

Pergolide has been used by members of this list since back to 2002.  There have been no reported heart valve issues.  In general the amount given to our horses is much smaller than that given to humans.

The reason 4-5 mg is recommended not to exceed is because of "side effects".  The side effects seen by 1000s of members here have been appetite related and lethargy which can be avoided by titrating on and using adaptogens (ie., APF). If  experienced at all, it is usually transitory unless the dose is wrong. It's amazing but these two steps are rarely recommended by an attending vet. It's even more amazing to me b/c we have BI vets on this group who have seen what is possible over and over again. But I digress.


The most immediate concern of uncontrolled PPID is laminitis but uncontrolled PPID has a huge impact on many other issues: allergies, muscle and tendon, energy, parasites...everything that can go wrong with a horse is just magnified when the hormonal system is out of whack from uncontrolled PPID.

Finally - and you may know this already - the ECIR Group recommends that when using compound, to buy capsules in 30 day amounts from a reputable pharmacy and then store in the door of the fridge.  The research this is based on is in the FILES. Go here and look at the first and second docs

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Drugs%2C Pergolide%2C Cushings Disease Treatments/Comp

 Experiences with Prascend and compound pergolide can be found in this folder

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/%201%20A%20a%20Prascend%20Experiences/

 

Thanks to all who have shared there stories.

Good for you for being proactive, Donna.  Keep us posted on how it goes.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 



 


Re: Pergolide/Prasend/compounding

Lisa S
 

I will add to LeeAnne's excellent post with a mention of the portion of the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) website that addressed this issue. It can be found here:

https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/FAQs/Pages/Compounding-FAQs.aspx

 

I think it is helpful to understand where some vets are coming from when they act nervous about the legality of prescribing compounded pergolide. While it is usually perfectly legal and acceptable in the U.S. under most state and federal guidelines, statements like the following (which appears in the text of the above link) might tend to give a nervous vet pause!

Excerpted from the above link:

Insurance carriers are unable to provide an unequivocal statement on the potential liability and related insurance coverage associated with compounding because the subject is a complex mix of state and federal regulations; with many situational variables, and a history of varying and unpredictable degrees of enforcement.  

And here is a link to the FDA's Compliance guide--good for insomniacs!


And of course, like everything else, the situation regarding regulation of drug compounding (both human and animal) is dynamic. Last year the president signed the Drug Quality and Security Act into law to try to address some of the issues, but implementation of its provisions has apparently been variable, and many of the 50 states are dealing with proposed legislation that would impact compounding as well.

Most of the documents dealing with this issue read like a bunch of gobbledygook, but veterinarians must attempt to understand the gobbledygook to insure they are in compliance with state and federal law.

While some vets dig in their heels, many can be swayed when the owner emphasizes that their horse needs either a different form of pergolide for ease of administration, and/or a different dosage. 

Best of luck in your meeting with your vet!


Lisa in TX
Pookey Bear, IR, and Zippy, his IR-almost-PPID friend
June 2010

 


Re: Pergolide/Prasend/compounding

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

HI Donna,
I'll try to answer some of this but would appreciate it if some one who knows more about U.S.  laws and stuff goes over it,  :-)


I am trying to get this all sorted out in my brain.  I get that Pergolide/Prasend/and the compounding pharmacies all are using the same drug to make their product.  


Pergolide is the drug. A little clarity:

 Lets say someone wants to control their hunger (disease) and sugar is the only drug/chemical that will do it:


Compounding pharmacies are small, local "bakers". They make cookies in small batches.  They don't have a fancy brand name for their cookies .  However their cookies can be custom made to use any level of sugar the customer wants: .0.01mg to (at this point in time) 45mg of sugar strength.


B.I. is a Pharmaceutical company. It is a BIG cookie manufacturer that distributes its cookie world wide.  However it makes only one level of sweetness (1mg) in it's cookie and that cookie is called Pracend.  Just like Nabisco makes Oreo - Prascend is a brand name.  


 What I seem to be struggling with is:

1.  Vets who say it is illegal for them to perscribe for a compounding pharmacy.  That they can only perscribe Prasend. or Pergolide. That is in states that allow a vet to write a script and then the client can shop best prices.  And on that note...if I want to use the compounded pharmacy what does the script have to say as far as the name of the drug used.


This is not true.  Vets can write a prescription for pergolide as long as the dosage strength isn't 1mg (the same as B.I.'s Prascend's strenght).  


 

2.  Pergolide was taken off the market some time ago because: (I know that thanks to Dr. K and ECIR it is back again, but is it approved for horses now?  Is it FDA approved? Is it patented?)

Pergolide was legal to imported to be made into pills to give to humans.  Not sure why but someone tried it on horses with PPID.  After some trial and error (error reason why there is so much concern over safety and side effects) they found it helped the horses.  So vets used compounding pharmacies to give horses pergolide. 


Someone more up on the technicalities will have to answer the approval question.  Yes it is patented by B.I. but ONLY in 1mg strength.  If a vet writes an Rx for 1mg of pergo then there would be trouble.  Anything else is fine as the patent only applies to 1mg. 


     A.  It was not approved for use in horses?  

I don't know.
     B.  There was a problem with the drug itself?

In people it caused a problem with heart valves.  In horses, if not tapered (slowly introduced) it can cause what the ECIR calls the pergolide veil.   Pergolide is an ergot derivative.  An excess of ergot can cause horrible side effects.  Equine sensitivity to the drug and the possible side effects are (I think) the real (unfounded?) reason there is so much fear about dosage.  As far as I know, other than the ECIR, there is no one using large dosages.  If you are controlling the ACTH you control the PPID and that controls the risk of laminitis.  Without control of ACTH horse is in danger.  It is a risk that owners and vets have to decide for themselves - though as an owner of a mare who has been on pergo since 2005 and is now on 36mg, I chose to risk the side effects to get make sure my horse didn't founder.  Heck it came close a few times till I got the vets to write the prescriptions for "high" dosages.  

 

3.  Is Prasend the only form that is approved by the FDA for use in horses and is dosage restricted?


Dosage is not restricted.  It is "recommended" to not exceed 4-5 mg (depends on what veterinary book your vet is looking at).  I forget what these books are called but all vets have them - a book put out by some authority over vets that lists all diseases and treatments.  A sort of treatment reminder book as there is a lot to remember when you are a vet. 

 

4.  Is Prasend the only one that is patented? 

I believe B.I. is the only company to hold a patent in the U.S.A.  Not sure about world wide. There used to be Permax but I think the American part was shut down when it became illegal to import.  It wasn't worth the cost of fighting the FDA to get it in.  Not enough PPID horses out there (ha ha).  Hmmm now I'm wondering why Permax wasn't threatening the U.S. with litigation if they wrote Rx for pergolide???

 

I need to know so when I am speaking with my vet in an effort to get what I need as far as Compounded Pharmarcy meds and dosages, I can reply to all his objections.... I anticipate that next year during the High Season I will be needing to get this done.

It is good you are starting this now.  Once you understand what the real scoop is, you can tell it to your vet.  The vet of course, may choose not to listen so take cookies (suggest home made with many mgs of sugar) to encourage cooperation ha ha.  Hang in there.  The brain strain is worth it.  Get it straight then get the pergolide ;-)

 

I do know the info is in the files, but for some reason I am not real clear on the details and need a summary of the history of the trails and tribulations on this.

Did you read "Getting Higher Pergolide Dosages"? in the Pergolide Dosage folder?  

 

 

Donna, Ulysses, Rolex, Beaufort, SC

ECIR May 2011

Unable to Copy CH into signature right now...sigh


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Donna%20in%20Beaufort%20SC/


-LeeAnne, 03/04

Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist

http://TakenForGraniteArt.webs.com

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database? http://tinyurl.com/m6syzt4

ECIR Files Table of Contents: http://tinyurl.com/pfk9m4l



Re: Ofeigur's New Blood Results

Maggie
 

>Just got some bloodwork back on my Icelandic, Ofeigur, and would love some feedback on what to do with his meds and diet

Hi Barbara,
It does look like Ofeigur is needing an increase in his pergolide.  His ACTH is elevated due the seasonal rise and the elevated ACTH is also driving his insulin up.  Read here for more information about the seasonal rise:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/seasonal-rise
 
Did Ofeigur have trouble with the pergolide veil when you started him on the Prascend?  Is he currently having any issues?  Foot soreness?   If he were my horse, I would increase his Prascend by .25mg every 3 days to at least 1mg.  And retest 2 weeks after you reach your target dose.  Each horse reacts differently to the seasonal rise, and needs adjustment in their pergolide accordingly.  Next year, you will be ahead of the game, since you will already know that he needs an increase for the seasonal rise.  This year, you are going to be chasing the numbers during the seasonal rise.  Here is Patti's scale of symptoms to help guide you in your dosing decisions:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/111988 
With his insulin level that high, I would be extra scrupulous with regard to his diet!
 
Hope that helps.
 
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/


 


Re: Do I need to soak this hay?

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

Hi Susan, Lorna and Marilyn,
I uploaded the jpeg file to the photos.  It is a 683 KB photo. Which is a pretty hefty size of a photo(??)
Anyway, it should enlarge so you can see it.  If you click on it, it will go to "light box"  if this isn't big enough, click on the arrow thingy at the bottom to go to full screen.   To stop the photo from moving around on you screen click the pause button between the arrows. To get out of full screen click the x in the left corner or the esc button on your keyboard. 

-LeeAnne, 03/04

Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist

http://TakenForGraniteArt.webs.com

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database? http://tinyurl.com/m6syzt4

ECIR Files Table of Contents: http://tinyurl.com/pfk9m4l

 







Re: Interaction with CTB

Lorna Cane
 


Beverly,can you add the blood test dates to your CH.
Is everything else up to date?

Pergolide dose,for example?

Is Ginger's weight in pounds?Or kilograms?
Are you feeding only 500 IU's of vitamin E?
Iodized salt?

Please just double check so we know we are looking at current data.

Also add your location and date of joining ,along with your CH,every time you post.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Re: Diet for Cushings mare

janieclougher@...
 

Hi, Mandy (?) and welcome to the list.

First and most importantly:  pergolide really is the only way to control the symptoms of Cushings - and symptoms of Cushings include loss of topline, muscle loss, weight loss, poor immune system function, and can include laminitis no matter what your mare is being fed.  Chaste Tree Berry can help with some symptoms such as non-shedding hair, but won't help with control of the ACTH being produced by the enlarged pituitary gland. Some horses react to initial doses of pergolide with the "Pergolide Veil" - that is, loss of appetite and general spaciness, but this can be avoided by tapering the dose up slowly by .25 mg every 4 days, and by giving APF (an adaptogen from Auburn Labs) at the same time.

Once the Cushings is controlled, you may find your mare putting on weight.  Appropriate feeds are good quality hay with high digestibility and with ESC and starch below 10%;  up to 5 pounds of rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp daily.  Where are you located?  Nuzu Stabul 1 complete feed may be an option; also Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes.  More information on the diet below.

To be double sure we are answering your questions correctly, we need a little more information. Please take a few minutes and join EC History 8:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info


Follow the instructions to download a case history template; then fill it out, save it to your computer, and upload it into the EC History 8 files section (make a folder, first, with your name on it)

The list philosophy is Diagnosis, Diet, Trim, and Exercise.

Diagnosis is  by blood tests: blood should be pulled from a non-fasting horse (or pony) in a quiet barn; blood spun, separated, and frozen or chilled asap, then sent to the lab at Cornell on ice. Ask for insulin, glucose, leptin and ACTH.  How was your mare diagnosed?

More information here:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/2%20%20Diagnosis%20Diet%20Trim/

and here:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/Blood%20Testing%20for%20IR%20%26%20Cushings%20Disease/


Diet is supremely important, in some ways more for what is not fed: no pasture, sweet feeds, oats/grain, carrots, apples, iron-containing supplements.  Diet consists of grass hay or haylage, with ESC (soluble sugars) and starch of less than 10%, plus minerals balanced to the forage, plus vitamin E, salt, and flaxseed or flaxseed oil.  One can use a carrier of beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, and rinsed) as a safe feed to get the supplements in.   The Temporary Emergency Diet uses hay soaked for 1 hour in cold water, or 30 minutes in hot water, with the water drained where the horses can't get at it; plus vitamin E, salt, and ground flaxseed in a safe carrier such as beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, rinsed).  More info on Temporary Emergency Diet here:

 http://tinyurl.com/yckzmlz

Trim:  This is a trim physiologically balanced to the internal shape of the coffin bone, with short toe and low heels.  Trim is often a neglected or mis-understood piece of the puzzle.

Exercise: This is the best EMS buster there is, but only if the pony/horse is comfortable and non-laminitic.  A horse that has suffered laminitis needs a good 6 to 9 months of correct hoof re-growth before any kind of serious exercise can begin.



Give us a little more information; ask any and all questions.  And, again, welcome!


Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
ECIR  mod/support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/




---In EquineCushings@..., <sorrellmandy@...> wrote :

I am confused with all the advice that I have been given on what to feed my mare who has recently been diagnosed with cushings. She is underweight with barely any top line. I was interested in trying natural remedies like chase tree before going the recommended vet medications. I have been told that copra is good, but what else??? What type of chaff??? And what else does she need. I have a great supplier of sewn pasture hay but I know she needs more. She is in no danger of laminitis atm since I control what she eats. Please could some one help with a example of a diet plan to get her weight back up. Thank you


Re: Do I need to soak this hay?

Nancy C
 

Thank you for being stubborn Lorna.  :-)

To all members seeking answers: don't let NEO get you.

Keep at it. You can do this. 


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc



---In EquineCushings@..., <windybriars@...> wrote :




But I discovered by accident (temper tantrum over NEO is more like it) that clicking on the page makes it larger and legible.



Re: Interaction with CTB

beverly meyer
 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/
Lorna,
Here's Ginger's file as requested. Thanks.
I appreciate any advice on knowing if I could stop the Pergolide, and how.
Beverly


--
Beverly Meyer, MBA
Clinical and Holistic Nutritionist
www.ondietandhealth.com
Facebook: Beverly Meyer on Diet and Health
Radio: Primal Diet - Modern Health


Re: Do I need to soak this hay?

abbypeaches@...
 

Thank you SO much for interpreting this for me! 


 I wish Yahoo Neo would go away. I know NO one who likes it! It's a very difficult program to use.


  Bless you for helping me- Marilyn & Bud


Suzanne/Monte

PapBallou@...
 

Suzanne –

 

I’ve put several markups in your folder.  The LF and RF are pretty similar, so comments apply to both feet.


Yahoo! Groups

 

Essentially, Monty has long toes.  Really long toes.  I suspect that over time they have just crept out there and then the farrier was perplexed as to how to correct them.  The sneak photo of the black and white horse pretty much seals my opinion on that since he has similar issues, it not more so.

 

A balanced trimmed is balanced in three dimensions TO THE COFFIN BONE – front to back (how far is toe from leading edge of CB, and how underrun and/or crushed are the heels), side to side (are heels/quarters even), and top to bottom (what is the relationship of the CB to the ground – can the CB distribute weight evenly when fully weight bearing – heel height generally is the focus).

 

First markup in the album is the sole of the LF.  A simple ‘trick’ to start to find correct front to back balance is to find the true tip of the frog.  Because the frog grows forward and down, the frog you see on the surface of the foot is forward of the true tip.  You can pick around or take a knife to carefully find it.  One third of the foot is in front of the true tip, two thirds behind.  Monty’s feet are quite large and ‘open’ so you can readily see the true tip, marked in red.

 

White lines determine the proportions of his feet.  The entire foot should fit between the two green lines.  Yep.  That’s a long toe!  Heels look darn close.

 

Besides the toe, the other areas of concern are the bars.  The blue lines outline what needs to go – either with a knife or small nippers.  It looks like you’re pretty dry there, so would definitely do the farrier a favor and start soaking those feet the day before the appointment.  Maybe some wet ground/mud where he likes to hang out.  It will help do a more precise trim.

 

The next markup is the lateral x-ray of the LF.  Monty has capsular rotation.  The green line is where the toe wall should be – perfectly parallel to the CB.  Capsular rotation is where the hoof capsule, in this case the toe part, has grown away.  It appears to be of long standing.  Bony rotation is when the CB actually drops out of position.  It’s possible this has happened in the past, but the current orientation of the CB suggests that this is more capsular.  They are trimmed the same.

 

The toe needs to be brought back to the blue trim line.  This will provide a breakover that facilitates the breakover of the CB.  This can’t be emphasized enough! 


 Put the toe on a toe stand, and from the top, rasp that toe wall back to the blue line from about 10 to 2 o'clock.  The rasp should be perpendicular to the ground.  When done, there might not be toe wall touching the ground.  This is OK!  This is also where many farriers can’t grasp the concept of realigning the walls to the CB and insist that they leave toe wall touching the ground.  That gets you nowhere, and all you do is have a toe that’s too long, and will often take on that odd appearance of the feet of the black/white horse.


You also will probably see some red fluid - not frank bleeding, but blood/serum that has been trapped in the space between the wall and CB for a long time.  No worries.  

 

There is a blue trim line for the heels.  Would definitely bring the heels lower, although it appears it may be about ¼ of an inch…not much, but it will play a big factor in keeping weight off the toes.

 

The red areas – just be careful that the walls aren’t rasped aggressively here.  It’s the part of the wall that protects the leading edge of the CB, so while that toe is coming back, the ‘pillars’ will play a protective role.

 

The next markup is the lateral x-ray of the RF – basically the same comments as for the LF.  What is more noticeable in this x-ray is the magnitude of the bulk of the bars.  The dark blue dots outline the bars.  You really should see just a suggestion of bar on x-ray.  Bars can play a huge role in causing discomfort in the back of the foot if allowed to grow like weeds.  Time to do some weeding.

 

The last markup is the lateral photo of the RF, showing the green line what runs parallel to the CB, and the blue trim line for the toe.  If you go back to the sole view with what appears to be a lot of toe to come off – then check out the toe trim lines on the other three markups, you can see just how long that toe is.

 

This really appears to be a ‘signature trait’ of the farrier.  The feet will look a little odd over the next 6-8 months as the old foot grows out, and a new one, connected more tightly to the CB grows in.

 

Actually, this is a pretty simple fix.  

 

Let us know how it goes.   If the new farrier wants to go slowly with the toes, OK.  But have him/her come back within two weeks to finish the job, otherwise, you might spin your wheels!

 

Linda

EC Primary Response

West Coast

May 2004



Pergolide/Prasend/compounding

Donna Powell
 

I am trying to get this all sorted out in my brain.  I get that Pergolide/Prasend/and the compounding pharmacies all are using the same drug to make their product.  What I seem to be struggling with is:

 

1.  Vets who say it is illegal for them to perscribe for a compounding pharmacy.  That they can only perscribe Prasend. or Pergolide. That is in states that allow a vet to write a script and then the client can shop best prices.  And on that note...if I want to use the compounded pharmacy what does the script have to say as far as the name of the drug used.

 

2.  Pergolide was taken off the market some time ago because: (I know that thanks to Dr. K and ECIR it is back again, but is it approved for horses now?  Is it FDA approved? Is it patented?)

     A.  It was not approved for use in horses?
     B.  There was a problem with the drug itself?

 

3.  Is Prasend the only form that is approved by the FDA for use in horses and is dosage restricted?

 

4.  Is Prasend the only one that is patented?

 

I need to know so when I am speaking with my vet in an effort to get what I need as far as Compounded Pharmarcy meds and dosages, I can reply to all his objections.... I anticipate that next year during the High Season I will be needing to get this done.

 

I do know the info is in the files, but for some reason I am not real clear on the details and need a summary of the history of the trails and tribulations on this.

 

Donna, Ulysses, Rolex, Beaufort, SC

ECIR May 2011

Unable to Copy CH into signature right now...sigh


Re: Changing from compounded Pergolide to Prascend

Stacy
 

Thank you - I kind of figured that - I'll keep him on the same dosage and make the switch back to compounded when this runs batch runs out.  At least then I can let me vet know I tried her suggestion.  

What happened to the files that used to be here?  I can't find them?  Looks like Yahoo changed things since I last visited…

Stacy
N. California/Shingle Springs
2008


Diet for Cushings mare

Mandy Sorrell
 

I am confused with all the advice that I have been given on what to feed my mare who has recently been diagnosed with cushings. She is underweight with barely any top line. I was interested in trying natural remedies like chase tree before going the recommended vet medications. I have been told that copra is good, but what else??? What type of chaff??? And what else does she need. I have a great supplier of sewn pasture hay but I know she needs more. She is in no danger of laminitis atm since I control what she eats. Please could some one help with a example of a diet plan to get her weight back up. Thank you


Re: Changing from compounded Pergolide to Prascend

 

Hi, Stacy. 
I'm speaking out here because I give my horse more Prascend than most people: I have little choice. Her present dose is 7 mg, headed up to 7.5 mg. Occasionally I am able to give the identical dose of compounded pergolide. I haven't found any benefit from giving Prascend over compounded pergolide. Not one benefit but major disadvantages. 

As for dropping the dose down to 1 mg in the middle of the seasonal rise, the moderators will not doubt address the dangers of sudden cessation of treatment.

The hit to your pocket book is $$$$. Prascend is about $300 for 160 - 1 mg tablets in California. At 4mg/day, you will be spending $225+ per month on Prascend. 

There are logistical problems as well. Think about getting 4 pills into your horse instead of one. Or 5 or 6.

BI, the manufacturer of Prascend, has a budget for marketing to equine vets styled as "continuing education". Most California vets don't hear anything else about treatment of PPID. I hope you can advocate for yourself to continue to receive compounded pergolide, with an appropriate dosage increase to address the seasonal rise. 

Good luck!

Cass for Satra
Sonoma County, Calif - Oct 12


---In EquineCushings@..., <saberger@...> wrote :

  My vet suggested changing to Prascent to see if we have better results.  


Re: Do I need to soak this hay?

Lorna Cane
 



>......but was able to barely read the analysis ( the analysis document print is teeny)

Looks like the starch is 0.46% and the ESC is 6.05%

Me,too.
But I discovered by accident (temper tantrum over NEO is more like it) that clicking on the page makes it larger and legible.

I saw the same numbers as above.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
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