Date   

Antihistamine use in IR horse

barbaraa16
 

My vet has prescribed Tri-Hist Granules to help my IR Icelandic horse with his itching.  It contains Pyrilamine Maleate and Pseudoephedrine HCl.  Will this cause any problems?  We have previously been using Hydroxyzine Pamoate.


Barbara and Ofeigur

N. Arizona, 3/2013

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/echistory7/files/Barbara%20and%20Ofeigur/

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/echistory7/photos/album/261495310/pic/list

 



Re: Mare just diagnosed, Pergolide or not? And dosage?

dshoenfelt@...
 

Thanks for the reply Mandy.  I'm Dianne BTW, I have tried to fill out the ECH8 but I'm being told that I must be a member first?

No, the mare is not foot sore at all.  No issues in that department, she is barefoot and gets a natural trim.

I just picked up her meds and blood work at the vets office.  I am supposed to start her on 2 mg of Prascend once per day.  I was told not to crush the pills.

Her ACTH baseline was 181 pg/mL and the reference range is 9-35
Her insulin was 5.26 uIU/mL and the normal range is 10-40

The lab is Quest Diagnostics in Wyomissing, PA with a Cornell University letterhead?

I have had her on a cushings/IR type diet since I suspected cushings.  We started that over two weeks ago, about a week before the vet could make it out to see her.

I don't want to start her on 2 mg of Prascend either, but I was told not to crush the tabs, can I cut them in half and should I start her at .5 mg or 1 mg or what?  I'm not sure what to do with the Prascend?

I'm curious about compounded pergolide too.  My husband is a pharmacist and could compound the pergolide in two week supplies for me if I can get a Rx from the vet.  This Prascend was $150 for a thirty day supply!


Re: Question About Cornell Shipping Labels for Canadian Customers

Connie Proceviat
 

Thank you Lorna. I will call Cornell just to be sure.

Best,

Connie (along with Falki who BTW is doing awesome and looks better than he's ever looked)


Re: .Pony should be dead apparently..

bigwhitevan2002
 

Thanks Sandi,
That does help, she has been missing exercise, this will be my goal get her back to a good walking routine, when her feet allow,
Julie
Oregon.06

Ps..I am pretty sure we took care of one of your pony's for a time grey Connemara named Ty, ran across his name on a spare  bucket last week, he was a great horse I hope thing worked out for him and his owners...small world. ;)..


Re: Question About Cornell Shipping Labels for Canadian Customers

Lorna Cane
 




Hi Connie,

To be sure, you need to contact Cornell.
But the last I heard was that the labels are not available for Canadian shipments.

My shipping charges last year from Kingston to Cornell were $100.00.

Have skyrocketed over the last number of years.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




Question About Cornell Shipping Labels for Canadian Customers

Connie Proceviat
 

Hi All,

My vet claims discount shipping labels from Cornell are not available on shipments from Canada. He says analysis is $125 from Canada. Does anyone know if this is the case?

 

Best Regards,

Connie and Falki

Manitoba Canada

August 2013


Kayla new blood work/ opinions

bigwhitevan2002
 

Hello,

may mare Kayla, 20 years confirmed IR has her new blood work in, everything is of course in the normal ranges with exception of her slightly elevated ACTH, all blood values are sightly up from last draw in February 


Proxy puts her very IR extreme risk which I already knew, 

Addressing her ACTH 


February 35.3 pg/ml   lab norms  9-35

May         40.9 pg/ml  lab norms  9-35


What dosage should I start her out on before the rise in the fall, it will take me some time to get going with it as I am working with a new Vet who will give me some grief for a bit, tho she is willing to look at the info I give her on compounded pergolide...


I would like to help her regulate her PPID asap, we just had a short trailer ride 15 minutes to a friends place Sunday, and she was drenched in sweat upon arrival,

 ( 60* out) this is a new development..we are planning a horse vacation 8 hours away in July I would like to get her going on any treatment before that stressful trailer ride.....



Kayla is non lamanitic I check her feet daily for pulses/ heat  when I send her out muzzled to the pasture and when I bring her in form pasture it is not taped, we just mowed , considering my experience with pony, I am going to continue to send her out to "graze",  though about all she accomplishes is getting huge callouses on her muzzle.....I know I will be told I am playing with fire, to which I will respond I am treating the horse not the numbers, when something changes I will act accordingly, I am working on tightening up her feet, studying markups of others and such...


what dose should we start with ? 

Thanks for all your combined wisdom, words of reproof, encouragement, and concerns

Julie

Oregon 06

Yahoo Groups




.Pony should be dead apparently..

Sandra Smith-Reynolds
 

Hi Julie et al,
I had one of those ponys with the horrid blood work. The secret with
her was exercise, daily, as much as possible. She was my lesson pony so
she worked 5-6 days a week without fail and she said her feet were "
fine, thank you very much". She was barefoot and worked in the arena
and trotted and cantered in the pasture with her young charges wearing
easyboots. She was on "My Best Horse Move-ese" which made her arthritis
more tolerable. She only worked one hour a day not a many hours like
some lesson horses. She was 28 and lived just fine with her disease.
She died of something else entirely which is not a bad record.

The best thing we can do is celebrate every day we have and not beat
ourselves up over what we could not solve or prevent. After all, the
ponys only want love and respect.

You guys are doing great.

Sandi Cassie(gone over), Hakeem, Rigel & Monita
NW Oregon 2007


Re: Pony & Kayla blood work ....Pony should be dead apparently..

Nancy C
 

Sorry...multitasking.  This should read:

"it's NOT just the food or PPID..."

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.


---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :

>>>>>The other areas to consider would be lyme disease, mare issues, iron overload, other.

>>>>I don't mean to make you go run and test these things, but a reminder that it's just food and/or PPID that drives IR.




 


Re: Pony & Kayla blood work ....Pony should be dead apparently..

Nancy C
 

Hi Julie:

Also want to add that for horses with insulin not controlled, keeping the trim well balanced and tight is even more critical.  I'v been looking at a lot of Bowker work recently and his work under the microscope drives home the reasons why peripheral loading, whether via a trim or via a show is not good.

Dr Kellon's analogy of the hoof wall hugging the structures within is one that also comes to mind.  If you do that, and load the foot appropriately, you leave little area for the hoof wall to migrate in the event of an assault from insulin or other agent.

From my gelding's perspective, it is what has made a critical difference.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 




>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think you will find a number of horses who just won't fall into a lab normal range, despite all the hair pulling & agonizing.

>>>>>>>>>Thus the oft repeated comment to treat the horse & not the numbers.


 


Re: Pony & Kayla blood work ....Pony should be dead apparently..

bigwhitevan2002
 



Speaking of pergolide, with Ponys ACTh always being just this side of normal every time tested even in the fall, is she /should she be, a candidate for pergolide this coming fall??? 

I went back and looked at her case histories which look like my 17 year old sons bedroom ---a haphazard mess of somewhat organization,( some day i'm going to figure out how to make it more organized)----- and saw a few insulin results on pony that were well over the 1000 mark ...WAY TO GO PONY!! 

so now the current 200 insulin count looks mild,.:)* perspective..and back then she was cross country training with a pony club...

her ACTH has always been high end of normal , in August 07  it was 35 pg/ml with a lab norm of 9-35....again should I be considering a pergolide routine with her at this time in her life, she is around 35 years old...??

the most recent update is in folder called pony may blood work update, other than that there is no rhyme or reason to her case history my apologies..
Julie
Oregon 06
Yahoo Groups

 







Not sure who said this but I just want to remind members that the Pergolide Dosage Database,(PDDb) can provide some insight to the over all situations of our horses.  
   






 


Not sure who said this but I just want to remind members that the Pergolide Dosage Database,(PDDb) can provide some insight to the over all situations of our horses.  
   



Was: Pony & Kayla blood work Now: Finding "normal" for PPID

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 



>>I think you will find a number of horses who just won't fall into a lab normal range, despite all the hair pulling & agonizing.
>>Thus the oft repeated comment to treat the horse & not the numbers.

Not sure who said this but I just want to remind members that the Pergolide Dosage Database,(PDDb) can provide some insight to the over all situations of our horses.  

For instance, if you wanted to get an idea of  how many horses are on "high" dosages, which ones have or don't have, normal ACTH, or how long they've been on pergolide, many of the database entries have this information listed.  Many also have those valuable case history links providing additional information members can view when hunting down answers to "how are other horses doing" type questions.

Though not all horses have been updated yet, there are quite a number and much information can be gleaned.  Of course, even more is coming with the next update.  More horses, more stats, more questions answered.  Yes this is a "veiled" plea for those who haven't updated either their case history or their PDDb their information to do so ;-)

 

- LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ont

ECIR Archivist 03/04

http://TakenForGraniteArt.webs.com  

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database? http://tinyurl.com/m6syzt4    




Re: Mare just diagnosed, Pergolide or not? And dosage?

Mandy Woods
 

Hello~
What is your name? 
 
First  ~ stop the bute,  the steroid eye ointment,  the SMZ’s and  do NOT give 4 mgs to start!    This eye ointment could cause your mare to founder.  Bute can cause or worsen ulcers.   The sulfur in SMZ’s blocks the absorbtion of some of the minerals you will be feeding.     Right now Less is more!
 
Before we can answer  your questions  we need to know more about your mare.  If you would take the time to join ECH8 which is where we keep our medical files on each horse,  by answering the questionnaire you will be painting a bigger picture for the volunteers to see.   She could be PPID and she could be IR.  She could be both.  These are two separate conditions that are managed differently.   However the IR DIET supports PPID horses so you need to read about both conditions.
 
Here’s the link to ECH8:    http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/echistory8
 
 
The list philosophy is DDT/E.   This means Diagnosis by bloodwork.  You said her ACTH was elevated.  Which lab,  what units and what was her value?   We also need to see the lab ranges for normal.   The symptoms you mention makes us think of PPID.  This is treated with pergolide.   We recommend tapering on this drug.  Some horses have a reaction to it by going off their feed and feeling generally ‘’spacey’’.   You can add APF to the horse as this helps with the pergolide veil.    You may need 4 mgs eventually ~ just don’t give it all at once the first time.
To confirm IR,   you would have your vet pull blood for Insulin/Glucose and Leptin on a NON fasting horse.   IF you don’t know what is in the hay you are feeding we recommend soaking/draining it.  Feed this the night before and the day of the blood pull. 
 
Chastetree berry helps the horses’ symptoms but not the tumor output.   Pergolide is the gold standard.  Either compounded pergolide or Prascend.  One is cheap one is expensive.  They are both compounded pergolide.  The dose depends on what it takes to get your horse’s ACTH in the middle range of normal.
 
DIET
 
You don’t mention if she’s foot sore.  To be on the safe side you could start the Temporary Emergency Diet in the Start Here file.    This means NO pasture,  No grains,  no apples, carrots, commercial supplements/feeds or red/yellow salt blocks.   The ER minerals are Vitamin E,  loose iodized table salt,  magnesium and freshly ground flax seed.   This is the base of the diet you will be building for her.   Your goal is to have her forage analyzed and minerals added to balance.   You can use rinsed/soaked/rinsed plain shredded beet pulp as a carrier for your minerals.  Season it with a palm of TC Lite pellets or timothy pellets.  Beet pulp has a similar profile as oats without the insulin spike.  Its really safe if you r/s/r it.   We can help you source products when we find out where you are!
 
TRIM
 
Is a balanced foot with toes backed from the top and heels lowered.  Boots and pads as needed.  Never force a lamintic horse to move.
 
EXERCISE
 
Hand walking is advised at first.  Exercise is a great IR buster as long as no new laminae is damaged! 
 
We know we overwhelm many new members with the initial data we send.   Its hard to condense this information when the horse needs this help today!    Please start a journal on your mare.   Take photos of her.   Ask questions.   We can help you.
 
Here are some links:
 
 
www.auburnlabs.com              
 
 
www.equi-analytical.com   Get the Trainer/#603/$54
 
 
http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html  
 
 
Mandy in VA
EC Primary Response
OCT 2003
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Re: Pony & Kayla blood work ....Pony should be dead apparently..

Nancy C
 

The other areas to consider would be lyme disease, mare issues, iron overload, other.

I don't mean to make you go run and test these things, but a reminder that it's just food and/or PPID that drives IR.

My gelding is never controlled.  Totally agree you have to treat the horse and not the numbers but it is scary.

The ad you see at the bottom of NEO is the link to you r case history.  When you are composing on the web site, look for an "X" in the upper right hand corner of the box.  If you see one and click on it, you will go back to just a link to your CH.  Whether or not you have an "X" can depend on where in the NEO experience you are.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think you will find a number of horses who just won't fall into a lab normal range, despite all the hair pulling & agonizing.

>>>>>>>>>Thus the oft repeated comment to treat the horse & not the numbers.


 


Re: Pony & Kayla blood work ....Pony should be dead apparently..

Nancy C
 

Hi Williams/Dubrow. 

Could you please define normal?

Were the truly normal as described by the VA Poly Tech proxies, or EEG protocol normal or "lab normal"?

What were the values? Why we ask for Case Histories.

Thanks very much for the additionl info.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <mjwd444@...> wrote :

Did you try metformin?   Our Mare's insulin was 160..Now normal...
  Williams/Dubrow. NY.  '08


Re: blood draw and feeding

Nancy C
 

Hi Beverly

If she has had hay pretty much all night, prior to breakfast, or at least four hours prior to blood draw you will be okay.  Otherwise would make sure breakfast is four hours or so before blood pulled.

More about blood work  at ecirhorse.org.

DDT - Diagnosis

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc

 






---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :


Question: how much breakfast and how far in advance of the draw?  I understand NOT fasting.

Ginger gets no hay, only ODTB and BP fed at 8 AM.  Vet is 9:30 or 10 AM.



Mare just diagnosed, Pergolide or not? And dosage?

dshoenfelt@...
 

My mare was just diagnosed with Cushing's yesterday.  I suspected it, my vet did not.  She is in the very early stages and not showing signs of IR yet.  She has elevated ACTH levels, is losing weight and topline, getting a pot belly, low energy, sweats easily and has one swollen udder.  She has had uveitis for many years and had no flairs for a long time.  Now she is in a constant state of eye irritation and inflammation.  Her coat is taking a bit longer to shed out this year and she contracted her first case of rain rot last year, and seems to be more susceptible to skin problems recently.

She lost a great deal of weight this spring and was lethargic.  We are thinking that this rapid decline was caused by a secondary infection of some sort, but we can't determine what type of infection or inflammation.  The blood work indicates serious inflammation somewhere, but the WBC is normal.  A rectal exam was done yesterday and found a slightly smaller kidney, other one normal.

One symptom this mare is NOT exhibiting is increased water intake and increased urination. 

My mare has been on a low dose of bute and steriod ointment for her eye inflammation, plus SMZ's for any underlying infection.  The second round of blood work results will be back today and we're hoping to see improvement from the antibiotiotics.

The vet suggested Pergolide for the Cushing's, and I asked what dose?  She said 4mg to start!!!  That sounds high to me?  I'll find out more today when the vet calls.

Since this horse is in the very early stages of Cushings with no laminitis, no weight gain and no IR, should we start Pergolide now or try Chasteberry?  What dose would be appropriate for a case like this if we did do Pergolide, and should she stay on it year round?

Also, if this horse is not IR yet, should we still be very concerned about sugar/starch/carb intake, or is it not much of a problem at this stage?

Any help is greatly appreciated!



Re: Pony & Kayla blood work ....Pony should be dead apparently..

bigwhitevan2002
 




-



>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think you will find a number of horses who just won't fall into a lab normal range, despite all the hair pulling & agonizing.

>>>>>>>>>Thus the oft repeated comment to treat the horse & not the numbers.

Thanks everyone,
, I actually had forgotten about that phrase, so that does make me feel better, but I am still confused , in February during her acute stage, her insulin was 80, now its OVER 200 , why why why?? I am worried because she has been laying down a lot more lately and her feet are hot...I can find nothing that would cause this...???

it makes no sense insulin of 80, is much less concerning then over 200..
I am afraid that we will start losing ground with her healing feet and start all over or get worse, and all I can do is watch, 

Julie 
Oregon 06.



Re: Pony & Kayla blood work ....Pony should be dead apparently..

ferne fedeli
 

As I think you know, Valeree, my Icelandic always has high insulin.  I think he was a little over 60 this last time, which I thought was good, comparatively.  He is full of energy and races around.  You would think he was perfectly healthy.  His Leptin was right at 4 this time too.  I try not to think about it!
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010


On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 6:15 PM, Valeree Smith shumist@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
 

I have a friend who also cannot get her horse's insulin down.  He is on 100% ODTB cubes.

I think you will find a number of horses who just won't fall into a lab normal range, despite all the hair pulling & agonizing.

Thus the oft repeated comment to treat the horse & not the numbers.

Valeree, GD, Jake, & Annie
ECHK Support
Santa Clarita, CA
09/03

Sent from my iPhone



Re: Sonce/Tonka Too

gentpony
 

Hi Sonce,

>I have a farrier coming out on Thursday who is more experienced with these issues.  He is sort of a mentor >to my current farrier. I will show him the mark ups and hope for the best.

 

I do hope that all goes well with the new farrier and he will do the trim as Linda’s markup suggests.  However, there is the possibility that he will tell you that he will do so, but then go ahead and just do more of the same.

 

I don’t want to seem negative, but I am writing so that you will have some time to think about what you would do in this case, so can be somewhat prepared in advance for such a scenario.

 

You must closely watch the farrier work.  Absolutely nothing should be rasped from the bottom of the hoof in the toe area forward of the tip of the frog.  The hoof is too short in this area already and taking any more away would be a disaster.  Also best that nothing be pared from the sole forward from the tip of the frog either.

 

Pulling for you and Tonka Too,

 

Eva

SW Ontario

March 2005

 

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