Hi Sherry,  I did start working on the Case History, I'll try to finish that up and post it.  I will also get the full set of hoof photos, she was just trimmed yesterday.  She is quite comfortable in her boots/pads, if I take them off and she is on the pea gravel in the dry lot that is when she is very sore.  I did have blood drawn on Monday to re-test her insulin, waiting on results.  At that point she had been off metformin for a few days because I had run out of it and thought I had read that it wasn't really useful.  She had been on it for about 3 weeks before I ran out.   The vet asked me to put her back on it, so she is now getting 10-1000mg pills 2x per day.  

I don't have her on Phytoquench w/DC or Devil's Claw, is there any benefit to doing one over the other?  If I go with just DC, is there any certain brand that is best for her?  

I did check with the EA folks about the hay sample test and this is what she said:  
Based on my findings this sample was analyzed with the 601 Equi-Tech which is a combination of NIR and Wet Chemistry minerals.

So I think that means it is okay to feed her without soaking?

Thank you again for your help!
Lori

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Lori J in NC 2022
Abbey's Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=276850 

Kirsten,
Thanks for additional info. I'm trying my best to learn but I don't always sleep well and feel in a fog some days so I miss things. 

I'm fortunate that at least up till now, my vet's always been able to come when I need him and available by text for questions in between. I think he's learning a lot and beginning to trust ECIR more. I understand that it's his license on the line so don't try to push him into things he doesn't feel comfortable doing. He treats me with respect, asks what tests I want to run when he draws blood. I try to get him to send blood samples to Cornell but doesn't always happen. Does it matter which lab we use? I know reference ranges differ between labs.  Cornell would be my preference as they've done a lot of IR and PPID research and what ECIR's most familiar with.
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Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817

Hi, Valletta. No, don't premix powdered Vitamin E with oil. Tons of information is covered in the ECHorsekeeping link Nancy provided, including a warning against premixing.
Vit E Recommendations.doc

There's also a price comparison of the various forms of Vitamin E, tho with recent price jumps it probably understates the costs. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/Horsekeeping/files/-Vitamin%20E%20Compare%20Cost.pdf 
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Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos

Martha,
Thanks.  I know not all of my questions can be easily answered but you always manage to come through.  All bales were from same field, baled on same day.  He said tries to cut hay in early morning when still wet from dew. 
I was concerned it won't be low S/S because was first cutting grass just starting to head out.  Will need more to get me through until next year so will be buying hay from commercial grower too and it's already tested.

Until I can get blood work done, thought soaking might be good idea as extra precaution but if it's not necessary, that would be great although not as difficult to do in summer.  New hay's clean so no need to rinse soil off first, saving time and water.  Thought it was recommended to test soaked sample before mineral balancing if soaking consistently?  Also feeding some OD timothy cube mash too but will decrease as more hay becomes available.
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Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817

Guy we bought from makes hay for his daughter's horses plus some to sell.  She shows hunter/jumpers and dressage.  All hay we purchased is from same field cut on same day.  He cuts hay early mornings when still wet from dew and bales over 1,000 bales a season but not much that's pure grass. Load we bought was also crimped to help it dry.  Said was pasture blend of grasses and just starting to head out when cut.  Hay looked very consistent except for few bales at back of wagon, some of which we didn't take because of that and also ran out of room in trailer.
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Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817

Valletta, would scissors work better.  I’ve seen that some people snip an ‘X’ in the tip.

Also, we’re trying to remind people not to include previous posts in their texts.  It seems like an obvious thing to do if you’re posting via email but, since those posts are all gathered into one list, it ends up leaving readers to dig around for your signature which gets bumped to the end.  I don’t use email to post here so I’m not exactly sure how that option comes up but it’s been happening with numerous people recently.  Thanks!
--

Heather, 4 grams is minuscule. Your horse should be fine. 

BTW we moderators at ECIR don’t often use the quote function replying to messages on the forum. Why? It hides the automatic signature for one. And it makes Digests very long. This is not criticism of any members. We know that each forum has its own practices and etiquette. At ECIR we *try* to keep things brief and to the point because of the high number of posts. In long threads we can usually avoid the need to quote by a simple salutation with the name of the person we’re answering. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos

Nicole, I would not add anything else right now to her feed until you know more of what you are dealing with. She is not eating much and adding anything is going to likely increase her inappetence. You also won't know if any side effect is from the new supplement or from whatever systemic issue she is having.
Personally, if she were mine, I would take her off of her current antibiotic and unless really contraindicated, I would have her on IV oxytetracycline. We have pockets of Potomac fever that is endemic here in Michigan. I have never had it in my immediate area, but just 30 miles west of me it is almost guaranteed if you bring in a horse from outside the area that is not vaccinated for Potomac. The signs are recognizable at the start typically with diarrhea but not always,normally a fever, and the vets here will go ahead and administer without waiting for a test, which takes several days, and you lose precious time waiting. Your vet needs to either continue to blood test and search for a diagnosis while trying treatments that are the least hazardous to your mare or needs to start consulting with professionals who can help direct the diagnosis. She can survive sole penetration and even sloughing her hoof. An unchecked systemic infection or toxin she may not.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .

Would it work to use high dose human-grade Vit E oil capsules? Or do these still need mixing with another oil?
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Carly Butler
Nottinghamshire, UK, 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Carly%20and%20Quest

Karen, I wouldn’t think more hay testing would be needed.  If we’re think of the same implement, the baler goes along baling and ‘kicking’ into the wagon so I can’t imagine that all those bales were not part of the same harvest in the same field.  Each bale might have slight differences but 20 should be a good sampling.
--

It's tough because there is always going to be some variability between bales but since the hay sample is an average,  you have no idea how high the variability is without testing individual bales.  I try to get hay from the same part of a field that was cut at the same time of day.   Hay cut in the afternoon is going to be higher in sugar than hay cut in the morning,  on a sunny day, so mixing those bales will result in a higher variability in sugar contents.


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Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Also, ideally shouldn't one test ACTH, insulin and glucose after increasing pergolide dose?

Yes, ideally, 3+ weeks after the change. 

Should I wait until Apollo is eating only new hay before testing? 

Depends on what you want to get out of the testing and how often you can test.  Because my vet only visits 2x a year, and I don't get to pick the dates, I try to make sure the testing fits with a lasting dietary change to maximize my bang for the buck.  So I will have my horse 100% on his new hay, soaked/unsoaked as I think is needed, before the vet visits and pulls blood in the fall near the peak of the rise.  Same with the spring visit if I have a hay change planned (ie, I want to stop soaking and see what his insulin does, or I have a new hay to try).

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album

Hello,

I am in the process of sourcing hay for next year but in the meantime time still using my hay from last fall but don’t have enough to order a bag of custom mix from Mad Barn. So I ordered the individual ingredients to mix together but noticed some have additional ingredients in which are concerning to be. 

Biotin- Distillers grain, wheat midds

3:1 Zinc/Copper -  distillers grains

Should I be worried about using these items for my mineral blend?

thanks in advance!!
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Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Oops,  My fingers must have slipped while I was posting and pasted something unnecessarily.  Hang on and I will correct it!
Sorry about that!  

Done!  It’s super hot here (for us) and my fingers are damp and somehow everything got duplicated unintentionally.
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