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Bute for cushings/ severe IR horse..
lj friedman
Jesse was worked a bit too hard today.. full sweat . hot humid day and lesson learned. At 25, he is probably a walk trot horse and if he wants to canter fine.. but I won't have the trainers ask for it like they did today, .. Tonite., 6pm. when I went to visit and prepare his supps and bp, his evening feed was not touched.. timothy pellets.. So, since this has NEVER happened before, ever, . I'll take the leap and say he was worked too hard and is sore.. He was fidgetey as well. The BO suggested 1 gm of bute for his comfort tonite and I gave it to him..He did start to eat, and while I didnt see him pass manure, his stall suggested that he had passed manure several times.. So, how bad did I do with 1 gm of bute to ease his soreness? LJ Friedman san diiego nov 2014
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Re: how often to restest blood
jamsler707@...
That’s the thing I don’t know what the target dose is? As I
understand the only way to know is to test, sure you can see if they are really
lethargic, eyes not bright etc., but with the weather WAY cooler & no bugs
is she just feeling a bit better or is the Pergolide at the right dose?
& how does one know if you are giving too big a dose? Since the vet is
coming to sedate her next week for chiropractic adjustment if he is heading back
to his office from my place maybe I will have him draw the blood first & do
the test since it is OK to test during seasonal rise to see if the 2 mg is
helping & by how much.
Thanks,
Julia & Luxy in PA
11/2011
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equerrys large animal probiotics.. meal form
lj friedman
For my horse without ppid/ir.. my vet suggested probiotics.. I bought the product above. Is this something I should also give to a ppid/severe IR horse, Jesse? lj friedman san diego nov 2014 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Jesse%20and%20LJ%20Friedman/ |
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Re: help... Princess culture sue & princess
sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
hello, Sorry it took so long... very busy here princess is taking up a lot more of my time. I'm now doing her legs 2 X's a day..using a lot of vet wrap.. the reason is, no shes not worse she getting better. the infection is getting under control with the help of the podi-green. that works GREAT... its make a big difference. she abscessed 2 more times not big but she did. I'm putting the green stuff in it 2 X's a day and its making a big difference.. she moving a little more she now goes to her grain tub and eats I don't have to take it to her, but her turning is hard for her, but little baby steps.. Jeremiah is coming out tomorrow on his way to Main and taking a look at her. hes going to be happy with what he sees. she so much better and I feel better on the infection. it almost gone but 2 abases places. but I'll have him give me his 2 cents. I know he'll be pleased.. wow what a difference a trim makes. the right trim... I'll have to post her clown feet wrap.. she looks funny but it works.. the swelling is almost gone in her leg. just a tiny bit in the ankle area..I'm going to keep her on the smz for a little longer.. so far so good.. sue & princess oh 6/11 On Sunday, October 11, 2015 4:48 PM, "janieclougher@... [EquineCushings]" wrote: Hi, Sue - You are kind of between a rock and a hard place with the available antibiotics. One reason why regional limb perfusion might be a better choice is that one can target the area more directly, and reduce the systemic effects of the antibiotics used; and you can also administer antibiotics that can't be used orally. There aren't many oral antibiotics that one can use in horses without either making the horse very ill, or having the digestive system of the horse render the antibiotic useless. So.... risk vs benefit. Both Baytril and SMZ have the potential to increase insulin (but no studies in horses). Doxycycline won't work, because one of the bacterial species is resistant to it. If you could do a regional limb perfusion, you could use gentamicin again (or similar) Good that you are back with your old vet - phew! Keep up the good work. You and Princess are real troupers. Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy BC 09 ECIR mod/support on the smz.. what would be better that would not raise the IR but kill what she has?? is there such antibiotic that is good for ir horses? there's no smell in her club hoof as of yesterday but still some drainage but her reg hoof still has some smell and drainage in it.. sue & princess oh 6/11 |
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Re: Blood Testing for Iron Overload
Patty Sobel <psobel_gen@...>
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Re: Blood Testing for Iron Overload
>> Sometimes they just take time to get used to new things, and introducing slowly can work. Hi Dallas, I wanted to add to Maggie's good suggestions wrt feeding the flax seed. This is totally counter-intuitive. But Patti came across it by accident,one day when she was in a rush. She dumped the mineral mix on top of the feed ,to save time. When she got back from work the buckets were clean. I began doing the same thing. My guys eat it. All I can think of is that they aren't as discerning with the first couple of mouthsful, and by then it's too late.They couldn't hate it that much ,though,or they wouldn't do it the next time........my theory. I like this approach because I know they are getting what they need,especially if they don't totally finish their buckets. Lorna in Ontario,Canada
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Re: Blood Testing for Iron Overload
Maggie
Hi Dallas, Yes, mixing the flax oil with the powdered E should work just fine. Pure flax oil is quite a bit more expensive than ground flax seed, but if he won't eat it.... Did you try adding it just a pinch at first and increasing it just a bit at a time? Sometimes they just take time to get used to new things, and introducing slowly can work. I would buy a small bag from the grocery store and start adding just a small amount (~ a teaspoon?) into his current supplement bucket. If he eats it, increase the amount a little at a time. You should know if he's going to eat 2-4 oz by the end of the small bag (or 2). Then you can buy it in larger, more economical bags. Triple Crown makes one called Omega Max. I pay about $28 for a 25 lb bag. There are other choices too. You are doing a great job! Looking forward too seeing Commander's hoof pics! Snow and ice--UGH!! I am SO not looking forward to that! Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA March 2011 EC moderator/Primary Response https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ |
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Re: Blood Testing for Iron Overload
Maggie, Thanks for the nice welcome and input on the iron overload testing. You make a good point about holding off to see how he does after the DDT/E have all been implemented. I'm anxious to begin the mineral balancing that Kathy B has already figured out. Yes, my hay is an alfalfa/grass mix, and I'll have to make the best of it for now. It is a genuine concern of mine as I pick through the bales to find the grassiest ones for Commander. We originally tried ground flax but Commander would not eat it. We'll retry it or the flax oil asap. I didn't know the AniMed blend had the wrong ratios. If we use the flax oil, will it work to mix with the powdered Vit E? The trim is progressing, toes shorter, heels lower. Our farrier put shoes on backwards on the fronts so he could trim more off. The shoes will be pulled on the next visit since it will soon be ice and snow here in Wisconsin. I'll do my best to post good pics so the guru has time to evaluate his feet. Dallas and Commander
---In EquineCushings@..., <spiral1957@...> wrote : Testing for iron overload in a severely IR horse (which Commander is) would not be considered overkill. In fact, it will help you and Kathy B to get his diet balanced as tightly as possible. If it's in the finances, I would definitely spring for it! If not, your money may be better spent at this time on getting Commander's diet balanced. You may want to consider testing for iron overload in the future if all the parts of DDT/E are firmly in place and Commander is still having issues. Alfalfa can make some horses foot sore. Something to consider if Commander is continuing to have foot issues. Another thing I noticed is that you are using 3 oz of Animed's flax/soy oil blend. Is that correct? We recommend ground flax seed to replace the Omega 3's and 6's because it has the closest 3:6 ratio to grass, ~4:1. The Animed Flaxseed blend has Omega 3 2000 mg (min), Omega 6 1500 mg (min), so a 3:6 ratio of ~1.3:1. Is there a reason that you are not using ground flax seed? If so, you should consider switching to pure flax seed oil without the soy oil. Soy oil has almost all Omega 6 (pro-inflammatory) and almost no Omega 3 (anti-inflammatory). Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA March 2011 EC moderator/Primary Response https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ |
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Re: Introduction for a New Cushing's Horse Owner!
Ok, thanks for that. Much appreciated! I think I'm finally able to navigate around this yahoo group thing.... 😊 Sent from my iPhone On 14 Oct 2015, at 5:59 am, windybriars@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
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Re: how often to restest blood
janieclougher@...
Hi, Luxy - In fact, testing during the seasonal rise can often pinpoint early Cushing's horses whose ACTH is normal the rest of the year. If you look at the following folder, and scroll down to :
PituitaryParsIntermediaDysfunction.pdf https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Blood%20Testing%20for%20IR%20%26%20Cushings%20Disease/ACTH%20TESTING%20%26%20INFORMATION/ you will find a lovely graph from the folks at Liphook in the UK, showing that confirmed Cushing's horses have an ACTH three times or more higher than normal horses during the seasonal rise. The seasonal rise in normal horses is from about September to the end of December; horses with Cushing's can have a seasonal rise that starts sooner and lasts longer. The period from April through June is when the ACTH is normally lowest. Luxy's ACTH was really quite high, so confirming his Cushing's status; from now on you will be testing him to confirm that his pergolide dose is correct (you already know that he has Cushing's). The time to re-test is 2 to 3 weeks after reaching his target dose. Has he recovered from his initial lethargy and problems after starting the pergolide? Did you end up reducing the dose, and then starting over again more slowly? Once the horse is diagnosed PPID, most of us test at least once per year, with the exact time depending on the horse. If the horse has shown foot-soreness in the past as early as August, then test mid-July. Otherwise, test in early September to ensure there is enough pergolide on board to deal with the seasonal rise. A confirmed PPID horse should have the ACTH in the low to mid normal range at all times (unlike normal horses, who can quite easily deal with the swings of the seasonal rise) Hope this helps! Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy BC 09 ECIR mod/support https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/
---In EquineCushings@..., <jmams1@...> wrote : I am trying to figure out when to do Luxy's 2nd blood test. I was under the impression it's best to not test during seasonal rise, which I thought was in the spring & fall? So it would be better to do it in Nov. rather than Jan.? Thanks, Julia & Luxy in PA 11/2011
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Re: Introduction for a New Cushing's Horse Owner!
>>As I'm getting sick of paying for tests that are inaccurate due to the way they are handled or not knowing the correct parameters of testing. Hi Rachel, Reread Pauline's message from last month. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/196689 Follow the links she provides, follow messages here,and devour our Files. Become a knowledge warrior. Then you can help your vet(s) fill in some blanks. Many members here report that their vets have been appreciative of their clients' help in this regard. Your horse will be the better for it, and you will have the power that comes with knowledge. Yes, it's hard work,but everso wothwhile. Lorna in Ontario,Canada
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Re: Introduction for a New Cushing's Horse Owner!
Thank you for clarifying this for me. Much appreciated! So, is there a list of vets for different parts of the world, that know what their doing if you have a horse suspected of IR or Cushings? As I'm getting sick of paying for tests that are inaccurate due to the way they are handled or not knowing the correct parameters of testing. Rachel Queensland, Australia September 2015 Sent from my iPhone On 14 Oct 2015, at 12:05 am, drkellon@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
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Re: Falki X-Rays
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Connie,
Just added some mark-ups to Falki's album. Sorry this took a bit longer than usual - things got a bit hectic. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/photos/albums/427907286 The thin soles are secondary to the sinking and long toes stretching them like a rubber band when you pull it - gets longer but thinner. As the toes become (and remain) controlled they will stop pulling the sole forward. Then the new growth will come in tighter and suspend the bony column more, which will remove pressure from the soles and allow them to gain more depth. Continue to move the heels buttresses back by rasping extremely conservatively across the rearmost portion - literally one swipe weekly so as to remove as little height as possible while extending the flat, weigh bearing portion back until it is even with the widest part of the frog. Then, work to sliver open the area between the outer wall and the leaning bars in the forward part of the buttress to find the buried sole beneath. This will eventually help the bars to start standing straighter and stop them from pushing the walls outward. Leave the actual wall height alone when doing the slivering. LF/RF sole: Lime green is where the buttresses currently are. Yellow is where you are working to get them. Red is about where the true tip of the frog is. Purple is where to back the toes to and bevel them under to ease the breakover a bit more. Blue are the areas to concentrate on slivering out to separate the leaning, pooling, excess bar material from the outer wall so the two can become separate structures once again. You want to work on this over time, a bit each trim, while trying to remove as little height from the walls as possible so as not to lower the rear of the foot. RF: Take a close look at it with the feathers out of the way somehow (shave them off, tape them up, use pantyhose to pull them up) so the coronary band and upper hoof capsule are visible. Check that the toe is backed enough that it is even with the new angle of growth. LF lateral: Green is following the new angle of growth. I "erased" the excess toe length. The yellow hashes are the laminar wedge material - you can start to gradually rasp that away so that the wall will blend with new growth angle. The LF is flatter, has more excess toe length, while the RF is more upright. Add a bit more bevel underneath between 10 and 2 to ease the break over. Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut Jan 05, RI EC Support Team |
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Re: Introduction for a New Cushing's Horse Owner!
--In EquineCushings@..., <r_sings@...> wrote : So if the horse is fasted for the IR testing, you get an inaccurate result? A study performed at LSU [Caltibilota et al, JEVS May 2009] found that fasting leptin correlated with IR status on a combined glucose and insulin test but fasting glucose and insulin were not significantly different between normal and IR horses. Fasting also lowers ACTH, as found in the study below as well as observations of an owner in our group: horse "feeding status" ACTH - PubMed Result Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner Feb 2001 |
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Re: Should this horse be on Prascend ??
beauj32750
Thank You for your thoughts Jaini, I've implemented your suggestions and also started a mini exercise program each morning, as much as he can tolerate w/ a sprained front fetlock. Again, this site is a wonderful gift to frustrated owners. We really appreciate the time you each give. |
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Re: Introduction for a New Cushing's Horse Owner!
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Rachel,
Yes, you get an artificially low insulin/glucose result when fasting before the blood work is done. Check the files here for more info: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Insulin%20Resistance/
Although feeding schedule shouldn't even be a consideration when doing the ACTH testing for PPID, fasting can affect the results by making them either lower or higher, with no way to know by how much or "if" that particular individual was affected so for ACTH you should feed as normal. You joined Sept, 2015. Just need to add that and your general location to your signature. Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut Jan 05, RI EC Support Team |
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Re: Chromium yeast and charcoal for Cushing/ IR
Copra is not recommended. Nor grain hays. Chromium as described.
Endocriopathic laminitis - that brought about by IR and PPID - is caused by hyperinsulinemia. Too much insulin affecting the feet. I'm an not seeing where charcoal is sensitizing insulin to do a better job. We love hearing reports from the field. If your FB acquaintance were to come here, she'd need to tell us how her horse was diagnosed, what her management had been and how it had changed, what was in her hay, what work the horse was doing if any, and how was he trimmed. Some horses can respond just to an amount of magnesium appropriate to their diet. Many here have had hoof issues and downright laminitis on some of the feeds you mention. Please help us help you by filling out a Case History. Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 Please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference, Georgetown TX, November 6-8, 2015 www.nolaminitis.org ---In EquineCushings@..., <sandiegharries@...> wrote : Hi nancy. The lady was on Facebook showing her IR pony. |
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WAS: Introduction for a New...NOW: Fasting test results
Correct.
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Show quoted text
More info at ecirhorse.org. See also 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Dr Kellon on diagnosis. Please tell us where you are and when you joined. A year is good. Many thanks Nancy C in NH ECIR Moderator 2003 Please join us at the 2015 NO Laminitis! Conference, Georgetown TX, November 6-8, 2015 NO Laminitis!
On 13 Oct 2015, at 1:59 am, shilohmom@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
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Re: Blood Testing for Iron Overload
Maggie
Hi Dallas! Welcome! And thank you for the wonderful CH and also for including the link in your signature! Looks like you're maneuvering the learning curve here really well! So I'm not going to go into all of the details of our DDT/E philosophy, as you you already know all about that! I'm sure you've found our website by now, but just in case, it's http://ecirhorse.org/ Lots of great info on the DDT/E there! Looks like you've made some great progress with Commander and he's lucky to have you! Testing for iron overload in a severely IR horse (which Commander is) would not be considered overkill. In fact, it will help you and Kathy B to get his diet balanced as tightly as possible. If it's in the finances, I would definitely spring for it! If not, your money may be better spent at this time on getting Commander's diet balanced. You may want to consider testing for iron overload in the future if all the parts of DDT/E are firmly in place and Commander is still having issues. You are right, the sample does require special handling. Here's a link to the Iron Overload file with all of the information you need: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/search/files?query=iron%20overload I did see a couple of things in your case history that I had questions about. One thing I see is that your hay is a grass/alfalfa mix. Alfalfa can make some horses foot sore. Something to consider if Commander is continuing to have foot issues. Here's a post from Lavinia wrt alfalfa: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/196120 Another thing I noticed is that you are using 3 oz of Animed's flax/soy oil blend. Is that correct? We recommend ground flax seed to replace the Omega 3's and 6's because it has the closest 3:6 ratio to grass, ~4:1. The Animed Flaxseed blend has Omega 3 2000 mg (min), Omega 6 1500 mg (min), so a 3:6 ratio of ~1.3:1. Is there a reason that you are not using ground flax seed? If so, you should consider switching to pure flax seed oil without the soy oil. Soy oil has almost all Omega 6 (pro-inflammatory) and almost no Omega 3 (anti-inflammatory). And lastly, but certainly not least, the trim. It would be great if you could post pictures and any xrays you have of Commander's feet. Our hoof guru can help you to evaluate your trim and make sure that you have an optimal healing trim in place. Check out this site on how to take good hoof photos: http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html Please put any pics and xrays in the PHOTOS section of ECH8, not in your CH folder. It makes them much easier to view, and also prevents the "files" section from filling up too fast. Meanwhile you may find these 2 sections on our website helpful: http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-trim and http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/laminitis/realigning-trim You are doing great Dallas! Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA March 2011 EC moderator/Primary Response https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/ |
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Re: Introduction for a New Cushing's Horse Owner!
Hello, Can we just clarify this? So if the horse is fasted for the IR testing, you get an inaccurate result? Because my vets fast as well. Rachel Not sure when I joined? Sent from my iPhone On 13 Oct 2015, at 1:59 am, shilohmom@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
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