Date   

Hay analysis back -- need advice

Kerry Isherwood
 

Hi group,

Just got the analysis back on the local grass hay that was rained on and was hoping someone would glance at it and tell me if its worth digging through the 1500 bales to make a load for my 2 IRs.  Quick snapshot:

ESC ... 2.1 %
Starch ... 0.4
protein ... 9.5
calcium ... 0.21
phos ... 0.12
iron ... 205 ppm

full analysis here (make sure to click on the "rained on" file):

ECHistory8

 



with ESC & starch that low my mouth is watering but if the rest of the analysis is too much work to balance than I won't pursue it. 

Note that the bulk of both IRs' diets are ODTBCs and the above hay is just boredom filler hay, but both eat at least 5#s per day of the above so it *is* contributing to their diets.  They have been eating the above analyzed hay for about two weeks without fuss & without much waste. 

Also note:  one IR is iron overloaded per DrKellon via May 2015 bloodwork at KSU

Thanks so much,
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014



Re: Jasper Wont keep his Hoof Boots On ( Need Ideas to keep them On )

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

Updated Case history is uploaded:
- ​LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist 03/2004

 

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database?

​​
   
View the Database Stats 
Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials




Jasper's Case History is UP DATED

corrine haffner
 

Hi 


Got Jasper's CH UPDATED it's up loaded now. 


Corrine & Jasper

Mn 4/2014

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Corrine%20and%20Jasper


Re: NOW Paddock Paradise. adding AAKG and ALCAR for laminitic mini?

Kerry Isherwood
 

Im also interested in hearing how others "keep" their IR/PPID critters, esp the Paddock Paradise. I have 1.5 untouched, uncleared acres that I want to make into a PP track. I would like to hear good/bad experiences abt PP design in regard to IR/PPID challenges (ie, fighting over hay/food in too narrow of a track, etc)

Both of my IRs live in big square drylots and I get them to move by scattering ODTBC about their paddocks. However, on wet days this isnt practical so they stand in their sheds and just...eat :(

Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: pony feet pics are up/ short notice... (my pony too!) Now Orion'

Tori Cullins
 

Alrighty Deb, photos are up of my trim of 12 hours or so ago (link below - 
the latest photos have a board or grey mat underneath). You piqued my interest and I'm glad you did. Boy, I barely took much off at all. The good thing is, tonight Orion was walking just as well after taking his boots off, as he was with boots on. That's a first! In quite some time anyhow....

Boy Deb, I was just reading over Cory's history, how frustrating! You sure are busting your buns for him... A big hug to you both. You have a lot more hoof starting out than I have, it is scary knocking all that back!  

So, I was a little surprised to see that I barely made a dent in Orion's hooves, after all that 'going to town' posturing. However, take a look at the RF, especially the corner of the outside heel buttress. Is that red coloration, bruising? Does it look somewhat bruised on up into the heel bulbs (medial aspect), and on the LF also? 

I see that the outside heel on his RF is also noticeably longer than the inside heel. When I am rasping on that (bruised?) outside is when he gets nippy and doesnt want to bring his foot up any longer (leans all his weight on it and locks his knee). It is also happens to be the last place I work, so may be his patience is up also... Maybe I should start there tomorrow and see how he acts.... 

Tori and Orion, Hawaii
April 2015

ECHistory8

 




Re: Looking for some help and direction for IR Pony

Jlee DOrtona
 

Lavinia,

Thank you for your help in helping me get started on here.  I am starting him back on the emergency diet tomorrow while I work through this.  I have just finished uploading his case history and will be working on getting x-rays and hoof pics up tomorrow.

Jenilee, New York
October, 2013
ECHistory8

 

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Jenilee%20and%20Huckleberry%20Case%20History/


---In EquineCushings@..., <shilohmom@...> wrote :

Hi,

Sorry your little guy is having so many problems. In order to be able to give you the best answers we can, we need some more information from you. Please go to our sister site ECHistory8 and download/fill out/upload a case history form for your boy. You'll need to join but it only takes a few minutes:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info

It would also be extremely helpful if you could get and post pictures of Huckleberry's feet and any of the xrays that have been done in the PHOTOS section of ECH8. Here's the link to taking good pictures:

http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html

As you are probably already aware, we use a protocol of Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise (DDT/E for short) as the basis for everything we recommend.

DIAGNOSIS: This is thru blood work. We recommend having NON-Fasting blood samples sent to Cornell for the following tests: Insulin, glucose, leptin and ACTH if the equine is 10yo or older. These will determine whether you are dealing with either IR, OR PPID, OR both OR neither. Feed only soaked hay the night before/day of the testing. Have blood pulled at home rather than traveling to the vet clinic as travel will influence the results. Right now, it is likely you are dealing with IR as ponies tend to be IR just because they are ponies. IR is not a disease but a type of metabolism and requires management for the life of the animal. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated using meds - pergolide in either compounded or name brand form (Prascend). Primary hypothyroidism is extremely rare in equines so even if blood work showed thyroid levels to be low, the problem is likely secondary to something else. Fix the primary cause (like disease or dietary imbalances) and the thyroid will fix itself. Many times Thyro-L is prescribed when IR is suspected but it does not treat the condition. It will only temporarily jump-starts a sluggish metabolism until the body re-adjusts by slowing natural production of thyroid hormones.

DIET: Should be low sugar/starch/fat, forage-based with minerals balanced to the forage analysis. Until you know whether your hay is suitable, it should be soaked for one hour in cold or 1/2 hour in hot water, with the water drained where the pony can't get to it. Following the emergency diet is recommended until you are able to fine tune your pony's diet appropriately for the long haul. Soaking will not lower starch but does remove some sugars. The emergency diet is as much about what shouldn't be fed as what should - no grass, grain, feed from a bag, red salt blocks, apples, carrots, sugary treats, unsoaked/untested forage. Ontario Dehy Balanced Timothy cubes are one of the few safe options that are widely available that could completely replace your hay/grain and be fed as the sole source of safe and complete nutrition. If your local feed store carries Triple Crown Products, the ODTBC are perfect, esp for a pony. All you need to add are ground flax, vit E and plain salt. See more info on our website:

http://www.ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet

Stop the Empower Balance - it has too much fat (5%) with an inverted omega 6 to omega 3 ratio; sugar plus starch is a whopping 14%, with the starch number being 8% and starch converts 100% to glucose.

TRIM: Should be physiologically correct, with toes backed and heels lowered so the hoof capsule aligns properly with the internal structures. It is the most common "missing ingredients" when soundness hasn't been achieved if all the other aspects of diagnosis and diet have been addressed. Boots and pads for comfort are recommended while the realignment process is going on so that the frequent trims needed to attain and maintain the corrections can be done. By now, if the trim were correct and the causes of the laminitis/founder removed, Huckleberry should have no rotation visible on xrays and his hooves should have grown out almost completely. Really encourage you to post pictures of his feet so we can help optimize his trim as esp. with these little guys, getting the trim correct many times results in almost immediate soundness.

EXERCISE: Best IR buster there is but never force a sore animal to move. Given his founder, obviously this is not something that you can do with him right now.

Overall, we do not endorse having tenotomies/desmotomies done as they rarely help because they are not what is causing or perpetuating the rotation in the first place. As the rotation only occurred 6-7 months ago, it is unlikely that the tendons/ligaments have permanently contracted. What is more likely is that the trim is still not correct and the muscles in the upper legs and shoulders have contracted.From the thousands of cases we've seen here, correcting the trim issues and having targeted muscle therapy work done to address the soft tissue issues would likely be a better avenue to pursue.

We ask that everyone sign all their posts with their name, general location and year of joining (Oct, 2013 ). It helps us to suggest local sources for products and gives us an idea of where you may be in your learning curve. Ask any and all questions as they come up, we're here to help.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



Re: pony feet pics are up/ short notice... (my pony too!) Now Orion'

Tori Cullins
 

LOL, the pressure is on! I will post Deb and best of luck to you and Cory...  hope to get some up tomorrow. I sure hear you on being timid, but Lavinia is so clear and when she talks about 'tearing forces' oh man, i just want to destroy! Fear on both sides (timid to hurt, and scared he is hurting himself 'with each step'), I'm crossed-fingers keeping the balance by striving to 'do no harm'. I am so lucky that I can work on him daily... I stop when he starts getting nippy... he's pretty good natured, so I listen.  

One thing I am not quite clear on is the the 'how to" of taking the heels back. I saw Lavinia describe it fully on at least one previous email, and have been looking for it. I understand lowering, but bringing those 'buttresses back little by little' has escaped me (sorry Lavinia!). Somehow mechanically bringing them back by digging into, actual carving of the buttresses? I hope I'm not steering anyone wrong here. Will keep looking, but maybe Lavinia will clarify AGAIN... 

Tori and Orion, Hawaii
April 2015
ECHistory8

 



 


Re: pony feet pics are up/ short notice... (my pony too!) Now Orion'

Deb Funderburk <hawkhilldeb@...>
 

Hi Tori-- I hope you will post more pictures of Orion's feet after your trims. I have been struggling with my pony Cory's feet for over a year now. I am too timid in my toe backing and it has really held up his progress, so I am interested in watching your efforts.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Deb%20Funderburk%20in%20NC/
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory5/photos/albums/1275105710


Re: adding AAKG and ALCAR for laminitic mini?

Tori Cullins
 

I adding myself to this convo as I am interested if any other comments on the paddock paradise should arise. I am also thinking to do this on our 5+ acres of hilly oak, native grasses, and perennial stream  for our pony and qtr. horse. Wavering back and forth... 

Tori and Orion, Hawaii
April 2015
ECHistory8

 




Re: pony feet pics are up/ short notice... (my pony too!) Now Orion's Markups

Tori Cullins
 

Thank you Lavinia,

I can totally see what you have pointed out (but not without your doing so!), such as the 'converyor belt' moving everything forward - it's very clear in his tubules! Thank you so much. I am still digesting.... and starting to knock toes and heels back, while keeping a close eye on Orion for feedback. So far so good, he seems 'no harm' with the changes (soft rider boots and stock gel pads), albeit somewhat cranky with the (extended) work itself. I've been going to town pretty good, happy to get the 'go ahead' to rasp all that mechanically faulty junk away, while feeling clear on the goals. 

I have also searched for your name in the conversations because looking at other cases is very helpful also, even so I understand Orion's markups and directions are specific to him. Seems the more 'cases' markups and narration looked at, the more everything unfolds and clarifies. Funny though that while I can almost predict what you will say to other people, Orion's took me somewhat by surprise. I guess denial... 

Oh, I've also decided to put the trip off for another month, to early September and make sure his feet are transport ready. Hopefully 8 weeks will do, as otherwise it may be until next spring (weather, climate adjustments,) etc.

Thanks again for your time and effort, and all you do, Lavinia. It has made such a life changing difference.

And Julia if you are still following, thank you for the original post! Our ponies look very similar, do you know what breed yours is? I've been told Shetland cross for Orion... Hope things are better with your family, and pony!

Tori and Orion, Hawaii
ECHistory8

 





Re: When is OK to start riding

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Excellent news, Wallene.

Can you get some current hoof pix up? Does he move differently when he is in boots vs barefoot?

Know it is a conundrum - ride for more exercise to stave off another laminitic bout vs more exercise possibly hurting fragile feet.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ECHistory6

 




When is OK to start riding

 

Travis is doing much better, standing square, playing with the other horses and getting into mischief.  We hand walk up and down the 1.8mile road and he's doing great.

It's been a long road since he got into the grass early in March and it's been such a slow recovery.

If I didn't have the farrier test him each time she's out, I wouldn't know he still had some sensitivity.

He's down to just a little reaction in the very front of his toes when using the hoof testers.

My question is, when is it ok to start riding again?  He'll get so much more exercise once he can be ridden and I'm hoping to get him into riding before the seasonal rise.  If I can't keep him ridden during the rise, he ALWAYS ends up with laminitis and I'm feeling desperate :(

Should I wait a certain period after there's no more reaction to the hoof testers?  Should we go ahead with pads  in his boots?  I''m hoping I can get a call back from the vet this week for an appt for radiographs but sometimes it just takes forever to get the appointment.

Wallene & Travis the Horse in NC
Sept 2012
ECHistory6

 




Re: Looking for some help and direction for IR Pony

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi,

Sorry your little guy is having so many problems. In order to be able to give you the best answers we can, we need some more information from you. Please go to our sister site ECHistory8 and download/fill out/upload a case history form for your boy. You'll need to join but it only takes a few minutes:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info

It would also be extremely helpful if you could get and post pictures of Huckleberry's feet and any of the xrays that have been done in the PHOTOS section of ECH8. Here's the link to taking good pictures:

http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html

As you are probably already aware, we use a protocol of Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise (DDT/E for short) as the basis for everything we recommend.

DIAGNOSIS: This is thru blood work. We recommend having NON-Fasting blood samples sent to Cornell for the following tests: Insulin, glucose, leptin and ACTH if the equine is 10yo or older. These will determine whether you are dealing with either IR, OR PPID, OR both OR neither. Feed only soaked hay the night before/day of the testing. Have blood pulled at home rather than traveling to the vet clinic as travel will influence the results. Right now, it is likely you are dealing with IR as ponies tend to be IR just because they are ponies. IR is not a disease but a type of metabolism and requires management for the life of the animal. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated using meds - pergolide in either compounded or name brand form (Prascend). Primary hypothyroidism is extremely rare in equines so even if blood work showed thyroid levels to be low, the problem is likely secondary to something else. Fix the primary cause (like disease or dietary imbalances) and the thyroid will fix itself. Many times Thyro-L is prescribed when IR is suspected but it does not treat the condition. It will only temporarily jump-starts a sluggish metabolism until the body re-adjusts by slowing natural production of thyroid hormones.

DIET: Should be low sugar/starch/fat, forage-based with minerals balanced to the forage analysis. Until you know whether your hay is suitable, it should be soaked for one hour in cold or 1/2 hour in hot water, with the water drained where the pony can't get to it. Following the emergency diet is recommended until you are able to fine tune your pony's diet appropriately for the long haul. Soaking will not lower starch but does remove some sugars. The emergency diet is as much about what shouldn't be fed as what should - no grass, grain, feed from a bag, red salt blocks, apples, carrots, sugary treats, unsoaked/untested forage. Ontario Dehy Balanced Timothy cubes are one of the few safe options that are widely available that could completely replace your hay/grain and be fed as the sole source of safe and complete nutrition. If your local feed store carries Triple Crown Products, the ODTBC are perfect, esp for a pony. All you need to add are ground flax, vit E and plain salt. See more info on our website:

http://www.ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet

Stop the Empower Balance - it has too much fat (5%) with an inverted omega 6 to omega 3 ratio; sugar plus starch is a whopping 14%, with the starch number being 8% and starch converts 100% to glucose.

TRIM: Should be physiologically correct, with toes backed and heels lowered so the hoof capsule aligns properly with the internal structures. It is the most common "missing ingredients" when soundness hasn't been achieved if all the other aspects of diagnosis and diet have been addressed. Boots and pads for comfort are recommended while the realignment process is going on so that the frequent trims needed to attain and maintain the corrections can be done. By now, if the trim were correct and the causes of the laminitis/founder removed, Huckleberry should have no rotation visible on xrays and his hooves should have grown out almost completely. Really encourage you to post pictures of his feet so we can help optimize his trim as esp. with these little guys, getting the trim correct many times results in almost immediate soundness.

EXERCISE: Best IR buster there is but never force a sore animal to move. Given his founder, obviously this is not something that you can do with him right now.

Overall, we do not endorse having tenotomies/desmotomies done as they rarely help because they are not what is causing or perpetuating the rotation in the first place. As the rotation only occurred 6-7 months ago, it is unlikely that the tendons/ligaments have permanently contracted. What is more likely is that the trim is still not correct and the muscles in the upper legs and shoulders have contracted.From the thousands of cases we've seen here, correcting the trim issues and having targeted muscle therapy work done to address the soft tissue issues would likely be a better avenue to pursue.

We ask that everyone sign all their posts with their name, general location and year of joining (Oct, 2013 ). It helps us to suggest local sources for products and gives us an idea of where you may be in your learning curve. Ask any and all questions as they come up, we're here to help.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



Re: Iron vs "softened" water?

S Kauffmann
 

Thank you, Dr. Kellon. You have put my mind at ease. I trust no one's information as much as yours!

Sincerely,

Susan K


Looking for some help and direction for IR Pony

Jlee DOrtona
 

 I am in Upstate New York.  I have been following this group on Yahoo and Facebook for some time, but this is my first post.  I have a 11 year old, 12hh.  He was suspected to have Insulin Resistance about 3-4 years ago. No blood work obtained but had all the physical symptoms of IR.  He was started on Thryo-L at that time.  He did lose some weight and but there was not a dramatic decrease in his fatty deposits.  Fall 2012 he had his 1st mild case of laminitis.  It was a brief bout and he recovered fine.  He had another flare up fall of 2013 and after a longer bout, xrays were obtained and no rotation was found and he again recovered back to normal/sound. Each time this has occurred, he has been placed on the emergency diet.  We have been working closely with our local hay supplier and have been testing our hay for the past few years.  Testing has come back within reasonable limits and when we did have a rather high level starch batch, we soaked. 

This past December 2014, Huckleberry, once again had a laminitic flare up.  It all started with a rock that had gotten lodged in cleft of frog.  It was removed, but an absess and bruising followed.  Within a week's time, he was dead lame, refusing to eat or move, he had foundered.  Xrays showed 10 degree rotation Left front and 11 degree rotation Right front.  He was started on Metformin and Previcoxx.  He spent a week or so on Styrofoam pads until his feet calmed and then was placed into wooden clogs.  At next reset, he had not made much improvement and appeared to be seeking even more support, 3 degree wedge pads were added.  He stayed the next reset (about 3-4 week intervals) this way and at the 4th reset, he seemed slightly better and we tried decreasing wedges by 1 degree.  He was painful after this adjustment and was put back up to the 3 degrees.  He has been re-xrayed in March and July and his condition appears to be under control.  No flares in past 6 months, sole growth is adequate and to further rotation.  He is able to get around relatively well and has been a stellar patient through it all.  My farrier has no other recommendations for him and if the clogs were going to be productive, they would have by now.  My vet has referred us to a surgeon for consult on Inferior check ligament desmotomy, in hopes of relieving the tension that is causing him to have reached this "plateau".  We are not making forward improvement, nor declining.  If he is a candidate for the procedure and can live with the added finances that will be added to the amount we have already put forth during this battle, he still has the IR component.  He may find comfort only to founder again or continue to have flare-ups of laminitis.  Aside from the exercise component that he is currently unable to physically do, I have the other bases covered, or so I think.  Hay is tested, grazing muzzle used when turned out (not currently doing), is on Empower Balance (nutritional supp and carrier for meds).  His condition is also sensitive to weather fluctuations (esp seasonal) and that of course, is beyond my control. 

So, am looking for some help as to if anyone else has been in this position and could offer some guidance in making this decision in this very difficult case. If I do nothing, surgeon says ligament will not un-contract on its own and basically I will be keeping things as they are until he is no longer comfortable or his next laminitic episode.  I am waiting on a second opinion from another surgeon as well as his equine podiatrist.   Going forward, if he ends up having the procedure, am looking for help and advice to make sure I am doing everything possible, in hopes of, prevent another laminitis episode or founder.

Thank you in advance for your help!



Re: Can PPID / IR horses have rosehips

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


A handful or so of rose hips won't have enough vitamin C to make a significant difference, or have any other health effect for that matter.  Sugar content is up to 136,000 ppm or 4.4 grams/ounce. (Duke's Phytochemical Database).  It's OK as a treat or a taste tempter.

Flavonoids/bioflavonoids are present in all plants, including forage/grass. I'm not aware of any data that shows animals need or crave bioflavonoids. Please provide that reference.

As mentioned already by others, iron absorption is increased by vitamin C.  Vitamin C also becomes very PRO-oxidant in the face of high levels of iron, e.g.

Redox properties and activity of iron-citrate complexes: evidence for redox cycling.

  Extracellular iron diminishes anticancer effects of vitamin C: an in vitro study.

 

For iron overloaded horses, Phyto-Quench without C would be ideal but the high levels of other antioxidants in PQ are protective.  PQ is only used short term as a substitute for NSAID drugs.


There are no studies that show PPID is an antioxidant deficiency disorder. The first line of the conclusions from the first link Lorna posted states:


"CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE:

There was no evidence of systemic accumulation of oxidative stress markers or deficiencies in antioxidant capacity in horses with PPID, suggesting that these are unlikely to be major predisposing factors in the development of PPID."

In other words, even though there have been reports of lower levels of vitamin C in older horses this has NOT been connected to increased oxidative stress in PPID or in older horses in general.  Furthermore, there is no systemic evidence of increased oxidative stress in horses with PPID.

P.S. Natural and synthetic vitamin C are identical. See below from the Linus Pauling Institute:

Supplemental Forms | Linus Pauling Institute | Oregon State University

 

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001



Re: Jasper Wont keep his Hoof Boots On ( Need Ideas to keep them On )

Lorna Cane
 


>So i'v been using rescue remedy since yesterday doing it three times a day,helps to  some degree with his biting at hoofs.

In this case then, if he were mine I would dose more often.


Perhaps he would allow you to work on his trim with more frequent doses.
Just a thought. But I would try it if he were mine,and already more comfortable on three times a day.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup


 




Re: adding AAKG & ALCAR for laminitic mini?/Paradise paddock

Larks Tabatha
 

Hi... what has worked for us is to use a tiller behind our small tractor to work several inches of the soil and eliminate the green on our Paddock Paradise style track. To eliminate the tempting grass & weeds under the electric fence border... we periodically move back the step in posts of the electric fence to be able to till under the fence line, and then put them back in the ground once done.

If your slope is not too lengthy.. an option would be to cover with small rock to help with the erosion.

After a bit, the horse and donkey moving over the track take care of most of it and it does not require constant maintenance.

Sally in AZ
April 2013


Re: Jasper Wont keep his Hoof Boots On ( Need Ideas to keep them On )

corrine haffner
 

Hi 

So i'v been using rescue remedy since yesterday doing it three times a day,helps to  some degree with his biting at hoofs. Still sore footed still swollen up fetlocks,been cold hosing doing DMSO which he HATES wrapping legs with standing bandages. 

Had to muzzle him or he rips off bandages within minutes of them being put on. UPDATED CH sent it to LeeAnn late last night,haven't heard yet so probably not been uploaded yet. Think i'v got all info in it now hard to remember everything.

I know his trim isn't ideal but he's not wanting any part of being rasped on,he sets back on rope and pulls feet away,so haven't done much with trimming.I'am not into fighting with him it ends up with stall front being taken down,and mad hubby,who has to put it back together.


Re: Can PPID / IR horses have rosehips

Lorna Cane
 


>There are studies on the laminitis site and elsewhere that PPID is in
part an antioxidant deficiency disorder and that Vitamin C is low in
tested animals.

Would be appreciated if the links were provided.

Are these what you were basing your argument on?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16379648

http://www.thelaminitissite.org/articles/vit-c-and-ppid

Please provide links.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002


*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup


 



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