Date   

Re: Banamine/Gabapentin/Pentoxifylline

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Alicia,

We really need more views. It does look like there is a soft tissue density at the toe on LF and pressure from that could be causing the indentation in the coffin bone.  The "calcifications" I believe are soil, both feet.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Phyto-Quench

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Both her insulin and her post TRH ACTH were way over the top.  The uncontrolled PPID is likely driving her insulin. It's not only cortisol/ACTH that causes this in PPID horses.  The other hormones do too.

You are absolutely right that phenylbutazone typically does not do much for laminitis pain and she may very well have arthritis. More comfortable on extension than flexion suggests knee or fetlock but you would need a good lameness exam with nerve blocks to pinpoint pain locations. Even if she does have arthritis  pain, that's no reason to ignore her metabolic issues or you will be adding more foot pain to the mix.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Need assistance with trimming hooves and BCS

a.k.a.petpalace2@...
 

Hi Cass,

Do you have any recommendations regarding brand of rasp and where I could purchase a high quality one?  We bought a "Tough-1 farrier rasp" from Tractor Supply. which seemed fairly decent but wasn't very expensive.  I suppose you get what you pay for so probably will need to upgrade.  Over-all I would say Apollo is fairly easy to trim although better easier with front than back hooves.  Personally, I think a hoof stand would make rasping easier but a good one is expensive.  Farrier's coming to do trim tomorrow.  Interestingly, Apollo doesn't seem to outgrow his Cloud boots between every 4 week trims.  Maybe that's part of his problem, i.e. slow hoof growth. Hopefully, that will improve with more time on a better diet.
--
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817
 


Please help with hay analysis

epersh@...
 


Re: Banamine/Gabapentin/Pentoxifylline

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Alysoun,

Please do share.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Need assistance with trimming hooves and BCS

a.k.a.petpalace2@...
 

Thanks for info.  Actually when Apollo was foot sore, I couldn't really tell which was side more sore.  I had issues with previous farrier who had been trimming Apollo for 8 years.  Right hoof toe crack would come and go but he had it more often than he didn't.  Couldn't understand farrier's treatment approach which was to notch out crack every hoof trim.  Said he needed to clean out crack yet denied need for any other treatment.  When Apollo became acutely laminitic, farrier requested x-rays but then seemed to do same trim he had always done i.e. long toes on hoof x-rays.  Actually a blessing when he abruptly quit.  Current farrier seems to have a better idea about how to do balanced trims but I've also had some concerns.  Early on he was using hoof knife to remove some of Apollo's soles, especially on left front, most affected by laminitis.  When I questioned this, he said he had to remove calloused part of sole but this made sole uneven with small divets all over it.  Fortunately it has grown out fairly well.  Apollo scheduled for farrier trim tomorrow.  Will relay info other ECIR members have provided and keep fingers crossed he won't get upset.  He was okay with doing hoof photographs but felt they don't always accurately reflect what's going on with hoof because they're only two dimensional.  Really thinking I should learn to do my own trims so I'm not so dependent upon someone else and would have full control of what kind of trim he gets.
--
Karen B.
Wisconsin
2022
Apollo Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Apollo
Photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275817
 


Re: Weighing hay

kristiel
 

Thanks everybody for all the suggestions on weighing hay. As usual, I was making it way to complicated. I found an old Rubbermaid tote that is exactly the size of hay flakes and it holds around 9 lbs of hay! It’s perfect. Thanks again!


--
Kristie, Siena, and Satch in Western Colorado 2022
( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kristie%20&%20Siena )


Re: Banamine/Gabapentin/Pentoxifylline

Alysoun Mahoney
 

I believe much of what you observe is from his racing injuries. I can share the detailed vet exam report that was done when he first came off the track in 2016, if anyone has time and inclination to review it. My current vet has not done so yet, though I’ve asked a couple times.
--
Alysoun M in PA 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275965 


Re: New pain management since CBDs are a no go with new PPID diagnosis

TERRI JENNINGS
 


Re: Phyto-Quench

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Mary,

Last question first, the dosage for Metformin is 30mg/kg twice daily.  At 960lbs (435.45kg) that means Vandy's dosage would be 13,063.47mg twice a day or 26.25 of the 500mg pills 2x a day. 

Your TRH stim test results are telling you that Vandy has PPID, even though her ACTH level is normal at baseline. The elevated ACTH that shows after the TRH is administered could be driving her insulin up which is why increasing her pergolide dosage may help bring her insulin down.  If she responds to the metformin and it brings her insulin down that is a quick way to get her out of the danger zone for laminitis.  

The fact that you notice she walks better after warming up and responds to NSAIDs says to me that it's helping with her arthritis more than anything else.




Re: Banamine/Gabapentin/Pentoxifylline

Alicia Harlov
 

It does look like WLD to me too, pretty extensively. Could the LF be in such poor condition from off-weighting the RF due to the calcification and WLD/other issues at the toe? 
I wish the LF rad was taken more lateral and less oblique to give a slighty better picture. 

--
-Alicia Harlov in South Hamilton, MA 
PHCP hoofcare provider, The Humble Hoof podcast


Re: Banamine/Gabapentin/Pentoxifylline

Sherry Morse
 

South Central PA covers a wide area but you might want to start with reaching out to Daisy Bicking and seeing if she can recommend somebody for you.  Daisy Haven Farm




Re: Phyto-Quench

Maxine McArthur
 

< But it’s time to see how much they really are helping because the Clouds are not. My husband even made hard plastic inserts with toe indentions like the clogs for her Glove boots. She walks as well in these as she does in the Clouds>

Mary, if she has arthritic changes in her lower joints, the clogs may be giving her more relief because the breakover all around lets her roll her hoof in the ways comfortable for her. You could also try grinding a bevel (or rasping) around the sole of the Gloves to mimic the clogs and see if she likes that. 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Phyto-Quench

HBRancher
 

Dr Kellon 

I thought that I had read that Bute did not give relief for endocrinopathic laminitis & she has always gotten relief from a couple days on 1-1 1/2g twice/day of Bute.  She was on Previcox 57mg (instead of Bute) before all this other stuff.  It gave her relief also. That was for arthritis. And I have always thought that her arthritis was making her more sore. But have never gotten a dx that said she had advanced arthritis. So could that be the “something else”?

 

If you look at the videos before Prascend, she walks well in a straight line. The more she walks, the better she walks. She has a little trouble turning, both right & left but more on the right, but as she warms up, it goes away. She’s been like this for a long time. She would walk her paddock for 30 minutes before I would tack her up & be ready to go. 

She does not like to give me her left foot - but only if I’m asking her to bend it. She will lift it forward for me fine. She was making it hard for me to take her boots on & off. She started this about a year ago. About the same time as I brought her in for the lameness exam- mid summer 2021. She will lift her right foot both forward & bent just fine. She has developed a bit of wall separation in the last year that she didn’t have before. But not much. 

She has not been in the clogs for the last week or so. I’ve been hesitant to put them back on because I know how hard it is for her to lift her feet for any length of time. But it’s time to see how much they really are helping because the Clouds are not. My husband even made hard plastic inserts with toe indentions like the clogs for her Glove boots. She walks as well in these as she does in the Clouds. 

 

She has been on Jiaogulan & AAKG for years - for that very reason. I’ve always stopped the j-herb when administering Bute because I knew there was a conflict there. But it was never more than a couple days at a time. 

 

I understand that the Metformin is supposed to lower insulin. At least for a short time. But how does the pergolide lower the insulin?  Why should I up her Prascend before I do another blood test?   And if something else is going on - how do I find out what??  I get very confused. 

 

So what are the tests telling us if her base ACTH is normal, but her insulin is high. What does the TRH Stim test tell us if it is inducing high cortisol that normally wouldn’t happen?  

 

If I start giving her Metformin, the dosage would be about 25 - 500mg pills - twice/day?  

 

Thanks

Mary & Vandy

--
Mary
May 2022,  Holden, Louisiana
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mary%20and%20Vandy  .
Vandy's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275053  .


Re: Banamine/Gabapentin/Pentoxifylline

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Understood, Alicia. That's also why the walls should not be weightbearing in laminitics - or horses with poor connections for other reasons.

Capsular rotation is a bad term and confusing. Capsular displacement would be better and would apply to conditions other than laminitis.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Banamine/Gabapentin/Pentoxifylline

Alysoun Mahoney
 

Thank you so much for the feedback, everyone. I did move from MD to PA last year, and struggled to find a new farrier who was taking new clients — even when my vet made a referral, that farrier declined. After months of searching, I had every reason to believe the farrier I ultimately found last April was doing the right things — until seeing some of the comments here. Charlie last had X-rays that same month and the vet had no major concerns at the time. Rotation is all in the last year. My vet said nothing about bone loss, so your comments on that have me concerned as well. Maybe I need to find a new farrier with more expertise in difficult cases? I see there are other PA folks in this group. Do any of you have farrier recommendations for the South Central PA region?
--
Alysoun M in PA 2022
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275965 


Re: Dr Kellon new bloodwork results

Suzy Berkowitz
 

When do you recommend I recheck insulin and triglycerides? Thank you.
--
Suzy in Fl 2020
Scout Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Suzy%20Scout
Scout Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260915


Re: Compounded pergolide

Suzy Berkowitz
 

Thank you. The pharmacy is in Wellington which is horse country, so maybe there are other horses on it. I will give the pharmacist a call and ask him about the points you brought up. 
--
Suzy in Fl 2020
Scout Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Suzy%20Scout
Scout Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=260915


Anemic

Kelly Kathleen Daughtry
 

The vet did blood work on Micah and said she was slightly anemic. When I asked what caused the anemia, he said, "Low red blood cells can be caused by parasitism, bleeding, or inadequate production of red blood cells in the bone marrow. None of which make sense for Micah. I often see this in a lot of normal horses."   Could this have anything to do with her IR or Cushings?  
--
Kelly & Micah, Clayton NC

April 2016

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20%20Micah 

Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=264981

 

          


Re: Banamine/Gabapentin/Pentoxifylline

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

There are also soft tissue calcifications behind the sesamoids and behind the proximal pastern. Can't tell what structures they are in. You would need an ultrasound. Bone quality of the coffin bone is not good. Can't diagnose it from these films but pedal osteitis is almost guaranteed.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001