Date   

Re: Approved IR feeds list

beverly meyer
 

Hi Lorna!
I am mixing ODTB with Timothy and beet pulp and much more water than ever before. Working back to 100% ODTB.
BUT the main thing is that her feet/arthritis/slash whatever that all was for 6 weeks aren't hurting so much, and its been warm, AND I put her back on full dose Ranitidine ulcer meds.
We got behind on ranitidine when she was off-feed and I think that's what caused the no-eating thing, once the pain thing improved.. And a good trim - hoping Lavinia will comment on new xrays and trim, even though no sole pics this week.
So 2 1/2 days on full dose Ranitidine and she is eating much better!
Somehow this all started with the new feed batch 2 months ago but then developed into some "perfect storm" combo with cold and too many supplements and the sarcoid treatment I think. Really don't know.
I took her off everything except Pergolide and Ranitidne, E and salt. Will now start adding back one at a time. Thank you so much!!
Must update case with tons of new info. Hope good trend holds with cold front in tonight.
Best regards,
Beverly 6/14
Beverly Texas
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Beverly%20Texas/

--


Re: How often to test for cushings, ir etc

Dee Kenville <ndeewoods@...>
 

Great info you two, thanks again!!!!

Ok so main question when to test...looks like anytime btwn end of June and mid july is good time...I will aim for July 1.

As for the equerrys...I feed the probiotics only, no other supplements....I will amend case hist.

I will stop Parelli Essentials.  In fact Bren has not had it in a while...it's pretty expensive so I only use it when needed.  For instance my mare (along with a bunch of horses at my stable) just had a mysterious bug that made her lethargic and raised her heart rate for days and gave some of her neighbors a heart murmur...so I gave it to her for a few days. 

As far as my vet...sigh... when I tried to talk to her about seasonal rise she was adamant that cushings was simply caused by the tumor and launched into spiel about that.  Next time we discuss Bren tho I will try and get her interested in the No laminitis!  info.

Last question....I actually had looked at the lite vs the low starch, but the lite has a bunch of supplements in it so I was worried about that...so those extra supplements the lite has that the low starch does not have are ok? If so, I am happy to switch!

Thanks again for all help!!!!!!
Dee from Santa Cruz, CA


Re: Problem with horse without energy

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Needs to be fed twice per day to get and maintain the effect.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



 
 



        





More than one brain tumor possible with Cushing's?

ksherbin@...
 

 I know a horse a rescue farm who has Cushings and EPSM, and hopefully is not IR anymore due to a change in diet (tho he does get grain). However, he now has a lump on his head and periodically blood comes out of his nostril.

 

The rescue says the horse's Cushing's is under control, and this is a brain tumor, supposedly unrelated.

 

Could the pituitary tumor cause the lump and bleeding, or is this horse falling victim to yet another problem? I used to care for him (he's in your old database) and am willing to fuss a little with the rescue if there is a possibility that Cushing's is behind the current malady.

 

Karin

Goya

2013

Lynchburg VA

 


Re: Cushings or Not

Chanda
 

Lavinia, Thank you for responding, that helps so much to know that it does happen.  He's doing so well, but needs that increase for seasonal rise and then low dose for the rest of the year.  

Chanda

MT 9/04


Re: Problem with horse without energy

 

>>It absorbs best when fed on an empty stomach, hence the suggested feeding times in relation to meals. If you feed with meals (as many of us do) then increase the dose. The correct dose is determined by measuring gum color. Need to note what the color is now then watch for a change (piker/redder). If no change after 3 days, increase dose.<<

Thanks for your response.

Is it okay to just feed Jiaogulan once per day? 

Cynthia Boriskin from CA
Tucker 10/10


 
 



        





Re: Problem with horse without energy

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Cynthia,

Jiaogulan is an adaptogen that helps to increase nitric oxide production. It will help with increasing circulation. As an adaptogen it may help some in mood balancing. It's not an energy booster, per se. Having foot pain is not a prerequisite for use.

It absorbs best when fed on an empty stomach, hence the suggested feeding times in relation to meals. If you feed with meals (as many of us do) then increase the dose. The correct dose is determined by measuring gum color. Need to note what the color is now then watch for a change (piker/redder). If no change after 3 days, increase dose.

HTH.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



 



        


Re: Cushings or Not

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Chanda,

I have one here that does exactly that. His dose gets bumped up to 4mgin mid-August then must be dropped back to his non-seasonal dose of 3mg by Dec 21. If he stays on the 4mg dose longer than that he starts to get lethargic and go off his feed.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut (reverse veil boy)
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team





Re: Cushings and IR?

Maggie
 

Hi Lauren,

I started to respond to you the other day and got distracted.  Since Wy tested positive for IR, even though his ACTH was pretty high at the time, I would be treating him as though he is IR.  ALL PPID horses should be treated as though they are IR until proven otherwise.  I was looking at your CH and have a couple more thoughts.... OK, more than a couple!

1) The safe choice is not actually safe for an IR horse.  At 11% starch and 7% fat, it is definitely not a safe choice for an IR horse.  We aim for less than 10% ESC + starch and less than 4% fat.  Starch converts 100% to glucose and causes more of an insulin spike than ESC which converts only 50% to glucose.

2)  Rice bran is not recommended either.  Aside from the arsenic issue, the rice bran has an in-versed Omega 3:6 ratio.  Have you started Wy on ground flax seed?  It has an Omega 3:6 ratio closest to grass.  2-4 oz of ground flax seed would be appropriate for an IR horse since they are not on pasture.

3)  Glucosamine is not recommended for IR horses.  Read the "avoid these items.doc" in this folder:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Avoid%20These%20Items%20/   Whoops!  I see in a previous post that you stopped the glucosamine.  Can you update your CH?

4)  You list ".5 cup electrolytes" in your CH.  Can you expound on that?  What product?  And also what "U-formula" product are you using?

5)  You mention that Wy's hay is "already watered down."  Do you mean soaked, for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water, and drained so that the horse can't get to the water?  This is the procedure that removes up to ~30% of the sugar content.  Read about the emergency diet here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet  You should have Wy on this emergency diet until you can get your hay tested and balanced.

6)  Please reread Jaini's post to you about the liquid pergolide.  It's only good for 14 days.  Read the "pergolide 101" file--4th file down in this folder. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/Drugs%2C%20Pergolide%2C%20Cushings%20Disease%20Treatments/   If you are ordering pergolide every 14 days and not giving it past 14 days from when it was mixed at the pharmacy, then you should be OK.  Otherwise, you are not only wasting your money, but also giving inconsistent doses, which is not good for Wy.  In this message from you, it seems that his levels are showing some inconsistencies:   https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/190568   

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/



Re: Problem with horse without energy

 

 I am reposting these questions:

>>Detailed use instructions are in the files.<<

I have read the file on Jiaogulan instructions. Questions:

1. If my horse doesn't have hoof pain, can I still use Jiaogulan to increase his energy?
2. I board my horse, so giving Jiaogulan twice a day, 20 minutes before feeding anything in the morning and an hour between dosing and when the horse ate last, will be difficult for me to follow. Is there another alternative?
 
Cynthia Boriskin from CA
Tucker 10/10



 



        


Re: Cushings or Not

Chanda
 

Can a horse on pergolide coming out of the seasonal rise suffer from pergolide veil if their dosage is now too high?

Chanda

MT 9/04


Re: How often to test for cushings, ir etc

Nancy C
 

Hi Dee

You may know this already but for others reading:

Next time you talk to your vet, might recommend tactfully suggesting a read of the 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings which he can find on the International Veterinary Information Service (IVIS)

Sign In page - International Veterinary Information Service - IVIS

 

Better yet, since spring is approaching and folks are thinking about the yearly vet visits, print them out for him or her.  You can download them for free here:

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT:  Fructans were a highly popular theory of the cause of laminitis approximately 10 years ago. See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, The Internet as an Epidemiological Tool, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 



21


Re: Horses with cushings but not IR

Nancy C
 

I just want to add to Kathleen's post that, because we don't know the blood work results for Jesse it would be especially important to manage him as IR for now.

Some member horses who are PPID only, and remain taht way through most of the rest of their lives. They seem to be in the minority, but do have lee way on the diet.  They have however  learned that the horse is not IR through multiple testing results.

Just as personal experience, my non-IR QH gets the same base diet as my IR Morgan.  It is however, adapted when in work and the QH can have pretty much unrestricted grass.  They both have adapted diets when in work.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT:  The fall seasonal ACTH rise was first documented by an ECIR Group member and her veterinarian after noticing her horse had repeated bouts of fall laminitis. Fall laminitis is now recognized as an early sign of PPID.  See  E. M. Kellon, VMD, The Internet as an Epidemiological Tool, 2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 


Re: new hoof pics and xrays Ginger

Nancy C
 

Before you do pictures again Beverly, review the How To Take Hoof photos link here:   Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
FACT: Sensory nerves in the foot can be activated via tactile light pressure receptors and can affect vascular perfusion through the foot bringing more comfort to the horse. See RM Bowker, VMD, PhD, Nerves, Nerves, Nerves: Why Are They So Important To The Horse?  2013 NO Laminitis! Proceedings, Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 







---In EquineCushings@..., <shilohmom@...> wrote :

Hi Beverly,

Yes, I saw the PowerPoint and the most recent xrays hence the questions. There are only lateral views (which are definitely mislabled) and dorsal views.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: Uckele's G.U.T. safe for Cushings horses?

Nancy C
 

Hi Allana

It's safe.  Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

  Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc




Re: Cushing and riding

Nancy C
 

Hi Sandralyn

Welcome.  Our PPID/Cushing's and IR horses can do a lot more than we think if approached slowly with the right support.  His arthritis may be a factor, depending on where it is and how severe.

So we can give you the full DDT+E approach for specific recommendations, can you tell us more?  The best way to do that is through filling out a CasehHisotry.  You need to join our Case History filing cabinet site, ECHisotry8, just like you did here, then fill out the form and upload to a folder. You can join and find instructions here:  ECHistory8

 

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc



---In EquineCushings@..., <Sandralyn@...> wrote :

do u think he will ever be ridden or is he just a companion horse now...he is 25...I've had him since he was 3....he has been to vet and chiropractor....he is stiff in the back....vet said he has Cushing and arthritis
Sandralyn
Texas


Re: How often to test for cushings, ir etc

Maggie
 

Hi Dee,

I looked at your updated CH and was wondering if you are still feeding Bren the Triple Crown low starch?  At 10.4% starch, it's not really low enough starch for an IR horse/pony.  Here's a comparison chart of TC products:


Are you using this to carry your supplements?  We aim for 10% combined ESC plus starch.  A cup of Triple Crown Lite would be a better choice as a carrier as the combined ESC + starch is less than 10%.  Since starch converts 100% to glucose, and ESC only 50% to glucose, the starch can cause a bigger insulin spike.  Other safe choices are Nuzu Stabil 1, Damp Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes, soy hull pellets, r/s/r/beet pulp.

Also, are you still using the Parelli essentials?  It's still in your updated CH.  One of the ingredients in that is "licorice root powder".  Here is a post from Dr. Kellon about licorice root and why it's a concern as "it can cause elevated levels of cortisol:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/conversations/messages/41407   And more on that from Dr Kellon on licorice root:

"There's one ingredient in there I want to touch on tonight, rest for tomorrow. It's the last one, licorice root.

Licorice has a long history of use as a treatment for Addison's disease. Addison's disease is adrenal insufficiency - inadequate levels of cortisol and other adrenal steroids. It is the direct OPPOSITE of Cushing's disease, which is caused by an overproduction of cortisol.

Licorice works by blocking the activity of the 11-beta-HSD2 enzyme, the tissue enzyme that converts active cortisol into inactive cortisone. There is some recent interesting work on licorice and insulin resistance, but in the framework of true Cushing's disease, elevated
ACTH and overproduction of cortisol, I would consider this herb to be directly contraindicated.

Eleanor"


Another ingredient in the Parelli Essentials is Saint John's Wort.  Read this file for more information on that herb:  file:///C:/Users/mags1957/Downloads/Safe_Herbal_Feeding.pdf   Long story, short, I would stop the Parelli Essentials.

And a few words about the "equerrys probiotic".  Not sure which of their products that you are using, but if it's this one,  http://www.animalhealthsolutionsinc.com/products/98-equerrys-horse-economy-supplement.aspx it's not going to come close to balancing any hay.  Plus it has ingredients that you may or may not need to balance your hay., and alfalfa which makes some horses foot sore.  

The BEST way to feed Bren is to test your hay and then balance the excesses and deficiencies.  We like EquiAnalytical for hay testing.  You need the #603, trainer's package for $54.  If you are boarding and can absolutely not buy, store and test your hay there are a couple of decent supplements that can come close to balancing your hay.  I know that hay balancing can sound like Greek at first, but once you understand the importance of it, it makes sense!  Read the 2 files (Diet Balancing - KFGs View From the Soapbox.pdf  and  Why We Balance Forage.pdf)  in this folder:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/search/files?query=why%20we%20balance   

 OK, now to answer your question about how often to test!  Read all about pergolide here on our website:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/pergolide  There is an overview of how often you need to test and also a link to a message from Patti on how to monitor symptoms.  If you haven't already explored the entire website, I would encourage you to do so!  Lots of great information there!  Also a great place to send your vet, especially this part on the seasonal rise:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/seasonal-rise  

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/



Re: High Insulin

Patty Sobel <psobel_gen@...>
 

Here is a link to the latest hay testing results in case that is helpful.


Here is our case history:


Thanks!
Patty and Libby
Laurel, MD
May 2008


Re: Horses with cushings but not IR

 

LJ, 

Sometimes the mechanisms can be difficult to understand, but I think it's important so that people understand the different biological processes. First, to be clear, IR is not a disease. IR is a metabolic condition that can be triggered by a host of ills that range from genetic, obesity, illness, steroids, pregnancy... the list goes on and on. The bottom line is that glucose cannot be moved into the cells (primarily muscle) because the cells resist the signal from insulin to open the gate (receptors) and let glucose in. Consequently, in an effort to open the gates, the body produces even more insulin to compensate. In humans, the pancreas will eventually stop producing insulin, but horses have an enormous capacity and will keep pumping out insulin.

Cushing's (more correctly PPID) on the other hand, is a disease process. You can add it to the long list above of things that can trigger IR. In that respect, it is not the feeding of sugar/starch above 10% that causes IR. It's the metabolic disease (PPID) that disrupts homeostatic mechanisms and may (or may not) reduce insulin sensitivity and lead to insulin resistance.

This is probably more than you want to know, but for the sake of other readers, it might help. The bottom line is that, because PPID can disrupt insulin sensitivity, it is prudent to manage the diet as if the horse were IR. 

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Missouri, USA December 2005


Re: How often to test for cushings, ir etc

Kerry Isherwood
 

As a veterinary professional, I'm appalled your vet apparently does not appreciate the autumnal rise in endogenous ACTH--its a normal physiologic phenomenon dictated by decreasing daylight cycles, for goodness' sakes! That's Veterinary Class 101! Geesh!!

Anyway, my mare is PPID(early) and was severely IR the past two years (as in, reached diabetes mellitis stage: simultaneous high glucose & very high insulin & almost foundered despite very strict diet). I was riding and competing very successfully in 2013 and 2014 and her performance abruptly dived mid-July each year because of her severe IR. Therefore, I theorize that if June 21st is the solstice and Im consistently feeling a big difference in my mare by July 15 (roughly three weeks later), then likely the initial internal changes with ACTH are occurring with the solstice or shortly thereafter in order to manifest outwardly & so dramatically by mid-July. So now I'm on 'Insulin Watch' starting June 21st! :)

Please note this is just my theory and not proven by any means. But by riding my mare daily the last two years and knowing her so well, I was able to discern the slightest 'not right' feelings and was able to test her glucose/insulin immediately (I own a vet hosp). This year will be the first autumn she will be on pergolide so Im curious to see what her insulin does--so far the perg has greatly helped control the IR, so well in fact, that Im back riding Pinky daily and planning our first jumper show mid-Feb...all thanks to Dr Kellon and this group :)

Not sure this helped per se, but might spur a more scientific discussion to help with your questions!

Kerry Isherwood, LVT-VTS(ECC)
Licensed Vet Tech, Emergency/Critical Care Specialist
Brewster, NY
Pinky Sept 2014
Tofurky Nov 2014

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