Re: Beet pulp pellets vs shreds

lj friedman

Someone told me they switched to pellets and dont miss the r/s/r.  I feed beet pulp to 2 horses.. 2 buckets of rs/r and it can be a hassle to rinse.. I like to maximize my time and effort even if the cost is a bit more. With that being said. the shreds seem fibrous.. I feed beet pulp to mix supplements and bec it has shown to have some colic- preventing properties.. My new barn has hot water.  Do pellets look like mash when soaked? where is their fibrous properties?  pellets always  means no r/s/r?  lj friedman san diego nov 2014

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Creative Foot Warmers

Rita Creitz

Hi Lavinia,

Love your ideas, too!  I have a pair of second-hand SRs that are a little big and would give him room for his hoof to be wrapped in a sock or the 'space wrap'.  His current ones wouldn't allow it, don't think.

But now I'm worried that I don't have this figured out at all.  He seems worse today than when I saw him on Fri.  He was in yesterday....nasty, cold (~40F), rainy....and was in today as well, although the temperature went up so 60F!  The horses were kept in because of predicted showers and thunderstorms....which didn't happen.  Anyway, his pulses seemed more elevated and he was....besides being stiff when I brought him out of his stall....really foot sore, standing in 'that' stance. 

Can a rapid rise in temp affect the blood flow to cause pain the way a rapid drop in temp?

He's due for a retest of his ACTH/insulin, so maybe it's not in the normal range now, although his perg was increased from 7mg to 9mg (need to update his history) in late Nov when it was elevated on his last test.  Just when I think the DDT is working, a setback!  He IS eating and drinking, so that's good.  

Thanks for the link.  I had read a couple of those articles previously, but a re-read is good....and I recalled the protocol for giving the j-herb. Feeding it twice a day before feeding is really a tough one for me in a boarding situation.  So, I've been putting it in his bag of supplements that the guys give him with his evening feed or I mix it in with his OTBC.  He gets about 1 rounded tsp. He gets ALCAR, but not AAKG.  I can order that, but the protocol for that is the same as the j-herb. 

Is j-herb and AAKG ineffective if not given twice/day and on an empty stomach?  

Thanks, Lavinia.  I'm worried (but what's new?)  ;-)

Rita and Houdon
Gaithersburg MD 2013 

iPhone Case History Links - Nancy's Recent Message

Lorna Cane

---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :

PLEASE NOTE: This is very OT for the main list so any follow up conversation needs to go to ECHorsekeeping.

This is a good set of vids on how to use your iPhone.  This particular one is how to cut copy and paste so you can save your signature and link to case history in notes and then copy to an email to ECIR.  You need OS 3 which comes loaded on iPhone6.

How to Cut, Copy & Paste on Your iPhone


You can do similar with an android.

Android 101: Using copy & paste


Thanks to all  in advance for taking the time to master this new skill.  And thanks, LJ for making me go look this up.

With 12,000 members all in various places on their journey, it really helps us help you to be able to review where you have been and where you are now.

Merry Christmas!

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference. 

Conference Proceedings & Recordings


Re: laminitis one year exactly apart

Deb Funderburk <hawkhilldeb@...>

Hi Brittany-- I am so glad to hear that Dream is better. I know you have had a tough time.

Deb and Cory in NC
July 2012

Re: laminitis one year exactly apart


Lavina hit the nail on the head. Also, if you're going to test her, be sure NOT to test using the dexamethazone suppression test. ACTH only.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Missouri - Dec 2005

Re: WAS: Monty's lab results, NOW Re-testing ACTH

Suzanne Mansolilli

 I just re-tested Monty's ACTH on Dec 11,  five weeks after upping his Prascend dose to 2 mg/day.  Result for ACTH is now 35, down from 461 in late August.   He's down to his target weight, eating his low s/s hay with minerals balanced to hay.  He's moving w/no apparent pain, but we still have a way to go on growing out hoof. Hope to post pics next trim for progress assessment.

Now what? When would be a good time to re-test all?

Also, at some point I'd like to experiment with compounded pergolide as I understand from reading posts it can save me some money.  



I Need help


I reach this point in my hay balancing every year and usually can't get the minerals right. My link to my files is in EC History 3 files under Lynn Myers 10/20/10. I can always email a copy of my hay analysis. My gelding is 15 years old, 17 hands and weighs1142 lbs ( 519 kg ). I have been working with figures for maintenance to moderate with about 22.8 lbs of hay and have these figures under as fed on the hay analysis.

Calcium 39 gr which I thing is low  ( 150 %= 58.5 gr)
Phos, 15 gr  ( 150 % =22.5 gr )
Mag  15 gr  ( 150% =22..5 gr )
Pot  171 gr  ( 150% = 262.5 gr )
Sodium  3.9 gr
iron  830 mg
copper  50 mg ( 150% = 75 gr )
zinc  160 mg  ( 150% =240 gr )
manganese 280 mg ( 150% = 420 gr )
molybdenum 280 mg

Than I did the 150% of NRC recommendation as recommended by Dr. Kellon ( in parenthesis )

The things I think ( ? ) I see is that copper should be higher.  So I don't know how to figure the ratio for copper, zinc ,and manganese.

My brain is pretty scrambled right now so I will really appreciate some help.

Lynn & Harley

Re: started prascend yesterday

lj friedman

Jesse IS eating very well,and is getting 4 ML of APF. Today is day three of .25 mg And when I soak the sweet pellets to put his prascend in. Im using such a small amount. I'm talking about a 1/4 cup at most. Tomorrow I will try soaking some of the Timothy hay pellets and see if he takes that as readily. Lj Friedman. San Diego. November 2014. Still cannot send cases history from the iPhone.

Sent from my iPhone

Re: laminitis one year exactly apart

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Hi Brittany,

That is probably NOT a coincidence. In horses with undiagnosed/uncontrolled PPID you can set your calender by their annual laminitis flare-ups.

Testing sounds like a very good idea.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


laminitis one year exactly apart


I was going back through my records and realized that Dream was diagnosed with laminitis exactly one year apart. October 28, 2013, and October 28, 2014. Has anyone ever had this happen before or could it just be a coincidence. Dream is doing better and I am having the vet out next month for Vaccines and I may have her test her for Cushing's. The vet doesn't think she has it but I notice other things too like one eye always has goop and every fall and winter she loses condition. She did have a foal 2 years ago and hasn't kept the weight on like normal since then. Thanks

Brittany, Dream, and Mikey

WI 2012    

Re: Best Vitamin E supp?

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Hi Kerry,

Great news about your guys. Good job on getting those insulin numbers down.

Check My Best Horse:

You could use KPP's Elevate vitamin E powder:

Not the ideal situation, and likely more expensive as the powdered are absorbed less efficiently than the vit E in oil, but certainly better than not getting it at all. You can buy it on many of the online retailers so shop around for the best price.

Although there is vit E in the ODTB cubes, you really need to supplement additional vit E to meet daily maintenance amounts.

Lavinia, Dante (the uber-picky one), George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

Re: Best Vitamin E supp?

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Forgot to add that there is dextrose in the Elevate (surprise, surprise to make it palatable), which isn't mentioned on their website, so may need to take that into consideration with IR. Not sure how much per dose.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

---In EquineCushings@..., <shilohmom@...> wrote :

Re: Cushings testing

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Hi Mary,

Omega Horseshine, HorseTech Nutraflax, Triple crown Omega Max are ground and stabilized to maintain their nutritional properties so they have an extended shelf life. Fresh ground flax needs to be refrigerated and used within a few days or the omega 3's degrade.

Some people do make cookies from flax, and you can mix minerals into them but the high temps of baking will destroy omega 3's so negate the reason to feed the flax. Using a carrier like r/s/r beet pulp to put minerals. vitamins and flax into keeps the fragile components from degrading before they are consumed.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team

Re: Neo who?

Lorna Cane

>So take that Neo! :-p


My understanding is that it is allvabout advertizing.
What a surprise!!!

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002

*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*

Re: Neo who?


Hi Lj,
In Aug 2013, Yahoo decided to improve itself with the launch of  a new (Neo means new) web-interface redesign.  Without warning they unleashed Neo Yahoo on a number of users.  The "neo" changes confused and confounded many but Yahoo did not back down and has refused to bring back the classical interface. 
(Interface meaning the look of the yahoo group, button location and features such as searching messages etc) 

I think there are still a few members who still get the traditional interface screen and features but anyone who has joined yahoo since the launch gets Neo.  

Yahoo has been  s-l-o-w-l-y working on fixing the problems they clearly didn't see or care about when they forced this on users.  Many think that Neo ruined Yahoo groups as the few true improvements neo brought don't come close to making up for the loss of ease of use, reliability and in some cases, actual databases and other information. Many issues have been looked at changed and of course more trouble pops up.  It has been a very difficult few years and still there are problems that will probably never be fixed. 

Neo and Yahoo really let their users down.  The ECIR is just one of many groups distressed by Neo.  However the ECIR is populated with some impressively dedicated members who just put their heads down and plow on through the Neo/internet/learning curve to help their horses.  The dedication to helping their horses that owners have is remarkable , one might even say amazing - especially that of owners only learned to use a computer just so they could help their horse.  Kudos to you people.  Learning the DDTs and how to copy and paste is no light thing.  

The ECIR has been doing an amazing job helping PPID and IR horses but it is the dedication of the horse owners that sparks the fire that powers the ECIR.  

So take that Neo! :-p

​- LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist 03/2004

May Neo be lauched into a black hole. 

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database?

ECIR Files Table of Contents

Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials


Re: started prascend yesterday

lj friedman

Jesse has NOT stopped eating.. I wanted to be able to act immediately, IF this happens., which I'm almost sure it wont bec I am going slow with the dose . .25 x 3    .50 x 3.  .75x 3 then 1.0... thanks.. lj friedman.  san diego nov 2014  case history being updated today. 



Your horse's Case History is the most important step to be completed upon joining the ECIR List. A well filled out and up-to-date Case History is critical for obtaining timely and relevant advice from the volunteers. 

Provide as much information as possible. There are sections to enter data on physical symptoms, diet, exercise, blood tests, owner observations, past veterinary care or anything that you feel may be relevant to your horse's condition.

Please use standard units of measurement. To ensure the usefulness of your blood work results, be sure to include the type of units used by the lab and the lab's normal ranges. This will not only help the volunteers to help your horse, but will provide scientific data to help the ECIR group gain the trust of science-based equine professionals and shape future protocols.

Don't delay posting your case history if you are missing some pieces, it can be updated when you have the information you are still gathering. However, the faster your case history is up and completed, the faster you will receive support from the Volunteers or Dr. Kellon.

Link to additional information about your horse. Links that take volunteers to photos, videos, x-rays, specific messages in the ECIR groups or other sources of information can help support staff better understand your horse's situation. This means you and your horse will benefit from answers faster. 

Include your case history link when posting questions in the group so volunteers can find your information quickly and easily and your question can be answered more quickly.

Please leave all of your information posted when the time comes that you or your horse no longer needs the ECIR List's advice.  Your horse's information will be used  in the future to confirm or help form ECIR protocols. There is no better way to “give back” to the group for the help you and your horse have recieved.  An additional way to say thank you, is to add your information to the databases and poles.  

Templates, instructions and an example for posting Case Histories can be found here.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Teams of the Equine Cushings Lists

Re: Question with IR, PPID


Two things:

1. What is "normal?" There are lab norms and there is what we use as a "norm" (for lack of a better term). Lab norms come from a variety of animals - aging, young, fasted, not fasted, etc. In other words, the variability may be high due to inconsistency in the sample. What we use are data from a study (Treiber, et al) who measured insulin in ponies coming directly off pasture. There were two groups of ponies, those that were previously laminitic (prone to IR) and those who were never laminitic. In the group that was never laminitic, insulin was 10 uIU/mL or lower. That's the goal we strive for. Lab norms are generally around 20, and some other researchers are comfortable with 20 as an indicator. In personal communication with Treiber, she says, "There is no specific insulin number that will predict when a horse will develop laminitis." This is true, do to variability in animals and predisposition. However, if ponies can come in off pasture with insulin of 10, that is a good number to aim for with respect to laminitis prevention in IR horses. What was the number that came back from the lab? (number with units of measure)

2. Yes - the diet should be balanced. Balancing is not specific to IR or PPID. Balancing is just common sense. There are frank mineral deficiencies and excesses in all forage. The only balanced food for horses is feed in a bag and a huge selling point for the feed in the bag is that it is "balanced." What is unbalanced is the majority of the diet (forage). Frank mineral deficiency means that there isn't enough in the daily diet to even meet the minimum daily requirement. Relative mineral deficiency is when a competing mineral takes the place of another. An example is copper, almost always deficient, and iron, almost always excessive. They compete for uptake, so in the face of a frank deficiency (copper) and the relative deficiency (excessive iron replacing copper) there are overwhelming odds that very little copper is available to the animal. "Balancing" is simply putting the horse on a solid nutritional foundation, assuring that all vitamin and mineral needs are met, so that they can have the greatest chance at recovery and good health. Balancing doesn't fix anything. It just makes good sense and has been shown to be effective in the health management of all horses.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Missouri - Dec2005

Best Vitamin E supp?

Kerry Isherwood

Hi friends, im looking for alternatives to the Vit E gel caps for my IRs -- ideally something non-liquid that won't freeze.

Any recommendations?

One of my IRs is getting some E in the 10#/day ODTB cubes he consumes but my other IR is a picky son-of-a-___ and needs a supplemental source of E.

Both are doing splendidly with insulin in the low 20s (which is vastly improved for both).

Kerry in NY
Pinky Sept 14
Tofurky Nov 14

Re: started prascend yesterday

Lorna Cane

> If a horse stops eating anything, mustn't we take action?

Has Jesse stopped eating, Lj? 

Add your case history link to your signature .

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002

*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*

96501 - 96520 of 283952