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Re: Start Pergolide?
Thank you Lavinia and Paula, for the response.
So, Lavinia, you do not recommend retesting until September? I was diappointed to find that BI had dropped the leptin test from the subsidized panel and the vet didn't think it important enough to let me know so I could pay the extra to have it run!
To clarify: "Severely restricted from grass" means there is a bit of stray green stuff sprouting inside the fence of the dirt track, thanks to the strange rainy summer we are having our in Idaho high desert this year. I dig and salt (and spray judiciously) on my days off so there is not much but I cannot say there is zero greenery. The sheath swelling gets much worse when I restrict him from the track, which is why I've been trying to balance the risk of exposure to green stuff with the standing around all day in the dry lot. ( I can only ride 3-4 times per week, on days off from work.)
I was surprised at how low his GI ratio was as he looks & acts great. No crest, no shoulder pads or tail "donut" and very sound on the mountain trails, barefoot. He is a bit on the thin side, which was one of the reasons I started wondering about PPID; until last fall, he has always been an air fern and rather fat. I could put him back in a grazing muzzle but am concerned he would be not able to get enough hay through it. It takes him most of the day to eat 20 lbs of hay. I'm working on adding beet pulp but he is not much impressed with it so far. His minerals have been being served on a couple handfuls of moistened alfalfa pellets - hope that amount of starch is not the culprit! I switched to them when he started rejecting the timothy cubes.
As far as the "rodeo", it involved the vet disregarding my polite suggestion of the best way I've found to deal with my needle challenged horse. He was quick and rough and then got po'd which never helps. He had to do a second stick while I held Khari, who was tense & shaking. I don't know how much that sort of thing affects the blood work but I will be interested to see how the next round turns out. I have found another vet, who is open to my input on the easiest way to draw blood on this horse.
Thanks for the advice; I'm trying to get my CH posted now.
Jill & Khari in Idaho December 2010
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Re: Does Pituitary Tumor Affect Behavior?
Betty Ann
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Thank you for asking that question. I am very
interested in information on this too.
We have a QH that has EMS. He sometimes displays
abrupt flighty/panic/disagreeable behaviour. Last summer he bolted on my
daughter who was riding him off the farm. When he swung around and bolted (back
for home), the saddle slipped and she did a log roll on the gravel road,
degloving her right knee and several patches of road rash elsewhere. It took two
and half months for her knee to fill-in and close up. I had ridden him previous
times and found that once in a while, out of the blue, he would get into a
buck/rompy rage it seemed. I managed to ride him out of it but it was
challenging to do so. Many of these incidents happened to also involve a vehicle
that was off in at a distance (like 30 car lengths away, too far to really be on
the radar, it would seem.) He was fine when the vehicle passed; either when we
were also on the road or on a field near the road. It wasn't until the vehicle
was well off in the distance that he would act up. Observationally, he is a
horse that has a tendency to stand and look far off when he is on his own. I had
wondered if it was something with his vision. He was on .75 compounded
Pergolide for about a year. His reactive behaviour, more so when interacting on
the ground seemed to have lessened but was not eradicated out on the
trail. Sure would like to understand the reason behind his reactiveness.
As handlers we are aware of body language, inner energy, communicating with
patient expectations etc., He can be fine with the same activity for many times
but suddenly display this need-to-bolt behaviour seemingly out of the
blue.
My daughter wants nothing to do with him anymore. I
bought him for her; I don't have enough time to give him to keep him adequately
exercised. He needs a new home and an experienced rider/handler.
Betty Ann
Mar 08
On Can
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Travis updated hoof pics
So, after Lavinia's comments, I took a shot at fixing. Not sure I really got it, but I just posted updated pics. I couldn't find anyone to help so they are not as clear, but I'd really appreciate any markups possible. Leaving town for two weeks and I'd like to get him good before I leave. Wallene & Travis in NC Sept 2012
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Re: Seasonal rise testing
lj friedman
YOu can always post.. I have on my list of questions to the vet. if he will sign off on this.. The BO reminded me that there are years of muscle loss on an old horse may not come back at all.even if exercised. He would be worked max, 1 lesson a day max , and its very mild stuff, I watch Jesse like a hawk and the trainer is also very kind.. She might be wrong in her judgement.. I will get a sign off from the vet and take each day at a time.. At the very least. I will pay for the trainer to work him gently a few days a week. thanks for asking..
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Re: WAS PPID? NOW DIABETES?
Kerry Isherwood
Coral,
Calm down, deep breaths...my PPID/IR mare has frequently high glucose, and she's fine. Yes, your horse is still IR -- the "diabetes" label is just another way to classify the IR. It is all academic exercise for your brain and nothing changes the treatment or management. Keep doing what youre doing if Po is doing well. My mare's hyperglycemia is intermittent. Her insulin is often concurrently high. Technically the high glucose defines her as a Type II diabetes mellitus (high glucose & high insulin). It doesn't mean anything unless she is outwardly sick, and she is not. She is still Insulin Resistant and has PPID as the core of her problem, and that is what I treat and manage. Her insulin levels are at present well-controlled with pergolide. I make note of my mare's high glucose numbers and as long as she's acting fine, that's all I can and will do for now. It is the sustained high insulin that brings on the dreaded IR symptoms (tender feet, etc). As I understand, hyperglycemia is a way of differentiating between IR of PPID and IR as a primary malady (the latter does not usually have hyperglycemia concurrent with hyperinsulinemia). Everything is ok, Coral! You've just reached a new level of understanding your horse's condition. Nothing really will change, except you'll have something new to talk about at dinner parties ;) Kerry in NY Sept 2014 |
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Re: Salt/softened water: They have diarrhea now...
Carol
Saw a neat thing for sale someplace - a flexible water bag that fit in a wheelbarrow. With a wheel barrow with two front wheels for balance, would be pretty easy to move a lot of water. Carol in Maryland On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 9:54 AM, sk_fl@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
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Re: Seasonal rise testing
Kerry Isherwood
....." a trainer at my barn rode
Jesse for his first rider that has been on him in over 2+ years, and
said he did so well , that he could be a lesson horse of hers.. ( I want
Jesse to have a job a few days a week) She did notice he was off just a
bit and the vet is coming on Monday to do a lameness test. ".....
>>> Hi LJ, I cannot answer your 'when to test question' but I wanted to chime in about Jesse's potential use as a lesson horse. It may not be my business at all, but I just want to caution you to be realistic in considering Jesse's "job". While, yes, TBs generally do like to work, any older horse that has had two years off has lost considerable conditioning. It is not so easy to gauge his soundness by a single ride (or even a few) -- he has likely lost so much muscle strength that its nearly impossible to determine what is exacerbating the "offness" in an already known arthritic horse (am I mis-remembering?) I've done some rehab work and it would likely take months of walking, then walking with a little trot, then more months before adding canter, etc. Months to possibly a year to get an older horse fit & strong enough to perform at what a typical "lesson horse" program would entail (hopefully not more than one ride per day). If, however, the "lessons" were just walking lessons for beginning riders, then that's another story. If sound, yes, Jesse and every older PPID/IR horse should get daily exercise...but please do ask the trainer what exactly her expectations of Jesse's role in her lesson program would be. The life of a lesson horse is not always an easy one. Some trainers are fine with their lesson horses living on bute, previcox, etc, to render them serviceably sound. I do beg your pardon if I'm butting into your business, Kerry in NY Sept 2014 |
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WAS PPID? NOW DIABETES?
This is exactly why I'm totally frustrated with vets in my area. The vet that saw the results said nothing about diabetes. And for that matter, he said nothing about IR either. I would bet money he's never treated a diabetic horse. So, looking through this groups files, I found one explanation of diabetes, and according to that explanation since he has either low or normal(?) insulin levels he likely has Type I diabetes or is borderline Type II, and possibly not actually IR. That's taken from this:
PNP4KIDZ@... Date: Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] Insulin/Glucose (long) Hi Jerri, the IR horse actually does make insulin, and most of ours are NOT truely frankly diabetic. The difference is that with IR, you have a NORMAL glucose, with elevated Insulin. with Diabetes, you have a HIGH glucose, with either high Insulin (type II diabetes) or low to no insulin (type I diabetes). Thank goodness horses rarely get type I. (cause there is NO insulin shots available, and they would just die) So, with type II, as it sounds like your pony had, just like with humans, often, you can control the sugar just with diet alone.... with a good diet, the sugar comes back to the normal range (whew). In type II diabetes, as well as with IR, the body has a resistance to the action of insulin at the cellular level, that is, it takes MORE of the insulin to get the little doorways in the cell wall "OPEN" up and allow the glucose inside. When the doors just won't open, the blood glucose gets high! but inside the cells, the level is LOW, and the horse is fatigued, losing weight, etc.... You get the high glucose when, for the amount of glucose eaten (ingested), making the blood sugar rise, the horse's body/pancreas can't make enough insulin (it is only able to get into just so high of a gear.... ) If that much insulin still isn't enough to "push" open the cell wall doors, the glucose can't get in to be used, and the level rises. There are only a few ways to deal with this, #1, you reduce the INTAKE of food that causes a rise in blood sugar (those with a higher glycemic index) #2, In people you can give meds that increase the cell wall doors sensitivities to the insulin... so what they have will actually work. #3, You cause the body to use up the circulating blood glucose with cells that don't need insulin to cross the cell wall. So, is my horse IR or not? Which type of diabetes does he have? Thanks, Coral & Po Sept 2013 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The glucose level in March was 126, which is well above the high end of normal, putting him into the diabetic category not just IR. Insulin was surprisingly only 24.49 at that time. |
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Re: Does Pituitary Tumor Affect Behavior?
paulah@...
Hi Laura, Are his ACTH and insulin levels under good control? From my personal experience, uncontrolled IR can promote unruly behavior. Other things to consider are saddle fit, soreness or sourness from heavy training. Have you noticed a difference in his attitude about working? Best regards, Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR) in Bucks County, PA, USA EC 2014 NCRplus2011 --In EquineCushings@..., <lauramollrich@...> wrote : Pabatsa has started to act up--dangerously--something that is very unlike him. In the 10 years he has been with me he has been nothing but loving, and obedient. L Any information this would be greatly appreciated. Laura M in CA - |
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Seasonal rise testing
lj friedman
Jesse has been doing very well. A few days ago, a trainer at my barn rode Jesse for his first rider that has been on him in over 2+ years, and said he did so well , that he could be a lesson horse of hers.. ( I want Jesse to have a job a few days a week) She did notice he was off just a bit and the vet is coming on Monday to do a lameness test. I figured that I might as well do my sesaonal rise testing tomorrow as well. This will be Jesse's first seasonal rise testing as he first started prascend Jan of this year.. My question: Is tomorrow, July 20. too early to test for the seasonal rise? I was told to test August, but now I see posts of Aug/Sept to test for the rise. so is July 20th fine to test for the rise? lj friedman san diego nov 2014
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Re: Start Pergolide?
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Jill,
You're right about the IR part, which is no surprise with an Arab. He is barely in the compensated range so definitely want to keep diet tight and the exercise up. Without a Leptin result, hard to make a guess as to why he is barely compensated. Do you have a case history for him? You mention "severely restricted" from grass but not entirely removed - given his numbers I wouldn't be allowing grass access at all as that is playing Russian Roulette. The intermittent sheath swelling could be related to IR control issues. An ACTH of 49.3 in May is more than double what you would want to see at that time of year. As we don't know what type of "rodeo" was involved, can't say how exactly much of an effect that had on the results, just that it likely did influence them to some degree. It likely also influenced the insulin and glucose numbers. At this point, any blood draw you do has the potential to be influenced by the upcoming seasonal rise - even tho it doesn't officially start til late Aug/early Sept - as PPID horses start rising earlier, peak higher and later, and may or may not drop afterwards. If this was one of my horses, I would make the diet as tight as possible and plan to test ACTH/insulin/glucose/leptin in Sept to see where things stand at that point. Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut Jan 05, RI EC Support Team |
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Re: pony feet pics are up/ short notice... (my pony too!) Now Orion'
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Tori,
Nice work. This is going to be a work in progress in one way or another for at least 9 months as that is how long it takes to get a new hoof capsule to grow down from coronary band to the ground. I see you've gotten into all that funky stuff that is buried in the laminar wedge material. The dorsal shots really highlight the separation in there and the honeycomb-like texture. Keep moving back thru that area all the way from top to ground surface. I would probably do a soak of Clean Trax (or something similar) just in case there is anything hiding in there now that it's open to the air. It doesn't appear as if you've actually gotten to the live sole plane yet as the "V" where the bar and wall meet is further forward than the area where the yellowish material is. As the heels still need to come back a bit more, you are right that it can't be the live sole yet. There is no definition visible between the wall and bar and the area is higher than the sole level further forward. Normal, healthy live sole has sort of a waxy, whitish-yellow color and texture. Damaged solar tissues can have a similar, but more yellowish tinge, as they incorporate oozing serum and blood into the tissue while it's being formed. I added a quick mark-up: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/1664970610 LF sole: Green circles are about where the heel buttresses should be. Yellow circles are where the outer wall currently meets the bar. The flat, waxy-yellowish area between them is where the buttresses currently are. The purple chevrons are where the wall and bar most likely actually meet - the area forward of that is still merged excess bar/wall growth covering the sole. I think you can actually lower the entire foot a bit, all the way around, including some of the sole that is really bulging in the front half as there has been quite a bit of growth since the xrays were taken two months ago. Maintain the angles that are there now and just use your rasp in an even, level fashion to gently get a bit of height off across the board. See how he feels with that. Then resume with backing the toes and dropping and backing the heels again. Make sense? I agree that Sir Air Fern is too hefty, so time to weigh everything that passes his lips. As adorable as Thelwell ponies are in cartoons, in real life those characteristics are not healthy. He should not consume more than 2% of his ideal bodyweight per day in total feed. Would cut out the alfalfa as that is very high protein/calcium and not recommended for IR equines in general. As I'm not used to figuring the correct weight for a 12hh pony, I'm not sure what a good target weight for him is but 500lbs seems high. Will let those with more experience in that department "weigh in" on that... Check here for the way to determine Body Conditions Score: http://iceryder.net/bodyconditionscore.html Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut Jan 05, RI EC Support Team >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Tori%20and%20Orion/ |
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Re: Water Kefir
corrine haffner
Hi Jaini Here's a link i found when i googled it,tells about this probiotic. http://www.acsequine.com.au/shop/water-kefir/ I searched for it on group here found nothing on it,typed in water kefir and only this post showed up. Hope this helps, Corrine & Jasper 4/2014 |
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Re: OK to limit water on an excessive drinker??
corrine haffner
Hi In my frustration of stall be a puddled mess i have left him outside today,he's really sore/lame and not happy. I don't have enough bedding to once again re bed his stall. Getting more tomorrow. Kerry thank you for your explanation on his excessive peeing & drinking makes sense,doesn't make it any less frustrating. I wish his testing was tomorrow not the 27th another week of waiting and another week of flooded stall. He's a 4 today on lameness scale,don't know if its laminitis or what?? Maybe the steroid shot is now causing issues?? Thank you to everyone else who has responded to my post. Corrine & Jasper Mn 4/2014 ECHistory8
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Re: REPOST x 2: PPID?
Lavinia Fiscaletti
Hi Coral,
ACTH in March was 23.2pg/ml, which is fine for that time of the year. Because Po is 14yo, testing again in late Aug/Sept would be advisable to be sure he isn't spiking a huge rise for the seasonal period that would indicate he may be early PPID and would contribute to I/G being higher as well. The glucose level in March was 126, which is well above the high end of normal, putting him into the diabetic category not just IR. Insulin was surprisingly only 24.49 at that time. Leptin was under 1 so that wasn't an issue. Rechecking his I/G numbers to see where they are would make sense when pulling the sample for ACTH so you know how well his current program is managing his IR status. Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut Jan 05, RI EC Support Team |
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Re: Water Kefir
janieclougher@...
I had a quick search for this but couldn't find anything. Do you have a link to the product?
It really helps volunteers if you sign your posts with your first name, general location, and date of joining. Thanks in advance for your help with this! Jaini, Merlin, Maggie and Gypsy BC 09 ECIR mod/support |
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Re: OK to limit water on an excessive drinker??
My cushings mare is also a PIG. She has a access to her stall 24/7 and thinks the stall is a litter box and pees in the stall all the time. I switched over entirely to pelleted bedding for her. No shavings at all. I use 2 to 3 bags to start the stall and add as needed. The pelleted bedding is SOOOOOOO much better than shavings!!! It controls the odor and soaks up all the pee. It clumps kind of like kitty litter so even though it's a bit more expensive per bag, I save money in the long run by not using nearly as much. I do wet mine down as I don't mix them with shavings. As much as my mare pees in the stall, it was not worth mixing. |
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REPOST x 2: PPID?
Earlier in the year when I had Po's blood work done, someone said I needed to check his ACTH in August again. Is this because his ACTH currently looks high, and he may be PPID? Could someone check his test results again and let me know? Thanks, Coral & Po Sept 2013 |
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Re: Does Pituitary Tumor Affect Behavior?
Hi, Laura. My PPID mare Satra has episodes of reactive behavior that I associate with poorly controlled PPID. She starts the seasonal rise the second week of July. As background, Satra is not a reactive mare, so when she acts up, it means something.
I also see excellent mood leveling from Canadian Ginseng. You can't give it if Pabasta takes J-herb. Did you mention to the equine behaviorist that P has PPID? Cass for Satra Sonoma County, CA Oct 12 EC history 6 |
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Re: Salt/softened water: They have diarrhea now...
sk_fl
Hi, just a late tip, since you've hopefully gotten your water situation in hand. If you don't want to haul numerous 1 gal jugs and you're capable of carrying full buckets of water, just line the buckets with unscented trash bags and twist-tie or loosely knot them closed to prevent sloshing during transport (as long as they don't tip over). Should save a lot of trips. I don't think I'd leave the liners in the buckets unsupervised or leave the water in them in the heat (car) for long periods of time.
Sarah WNC 2009ish |
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