Date   

Re: soaked ODTB

Lorna Cane
 



>For a horse that has NO mouth issues, how much water do you add to the
Ontario cubes?


For me it depends on the horse.I have never added enough to cover the cubes.But some people may have.
It depends on the horse being fed,I think.But if my horse didn't have mouth issues I wouldn't bother wetting the cubes.They're usually very soft, unlike regular feed store cubes.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
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Re: Toothless pony having hard time w. soaked ODTB

Lorna Cane
 


>The ODTB often have a hard dry center even when the rest of it fluffs
up. If I add more water sometimes its just a soggy mess (and cold!).
Do I just need to get the exact amount of water to get it to soak into
the center?

I just spent 15 minutes writing a brilliant reply - and lost it.
This will have to be brief.

I like Nancy's reply about heated bucket. I just use warm water in the winter,if I'm adding water at all.
I never wait 30 minutes.Usually 15 minutes works for me,but you have to play with it.
If my cubes had hard centres I would probably just wait to see how many were left in the pail,and smash them with a hammer,before putting them back in the pail for a second try.
My horses mostly don't like their cubes wetted down. I feed those horses the flakes that are always in the bags .I separate cubes from flakes and put flakes in a separate bin.
When the cubes are wonderfully soft and small the way mine are at this time(thank you Aurelio!) my horses can gum them without much trouble.
It's always a trial and error thing,for me at least.
And just when I get it nailed down ,one of the boys will decide it's less than perfect.So I start again.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
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Re: soaked ODTB

Dee Kenville
 

For a horse that has NO mouth issues, how much water do you add to the
Ontario cubes?
Thanks, Dee


http://ndeewoods.com/


Re: Now: Understanding Pergolide/Prascend and Compounding

Lorna Cane
 


LeeAnne!

>As usual, if there is anything wrong in what I've written, please volunteers speak up!  I'm just the file clerk, not one of the you amazing people who answer questions.  

I'm here to say there is plenty wrong with what you have written!

THIS part : "I'm just the file clerk, not one of the you amazing people who answer questions."

Absolutely false .

Point 1 - You are not JUST the File Clerk. You are the most awesome File Clerk there ever was.
Point 2 - You ARE one of the amazing people who answer questions! You just showed that with your  brilliant answer wrt pergolide/Prascend.

I know there are many new members heaving a sigh of relief ,to finally understand that pergolide/Prascend conundrum.

Never mind that most of us are now running for a chocolate fix!

Thanks.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

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Re: Best Time to Test and Pictures of Chnges

Kendra
 


Thank you. I think so too but I admit to being a bit biased.


For his feeding (I need to update his CH again), he gets 3 flakes of Standlee compressed Timothy a day. I am unable to do hay analysis due to our boarding and nowhere to store hay for long enough periods of time so we are trying to take the safest route with him. He also gets 1lb of beet pulp with his supplements as a carrier. I really did not realize how ravenous he was previously but now he almost always has hay left over and has next to no interest in his beet pulp. Yesterday I balled his Prascend up in a small amount of beet pulp and hand fed it to him. He took it and spit it out. He has never done that before and has always taken beet pulp easily.


I have him on an extremely strict diet. He was on stall rest for rehab of his bilat check ligaments, walking daily. Even with 30-45 minute walks and strict diet he ended up with laminitis and a very hard, thick crest. During his lameness check ups it was very obvious he was extremely foot sore and it made the lameness checks very difficult to see any changes. The vet decided to start him immediately on Prascend because he continued to get more lame and we were concerned he would end up in an IR crisis situation. Even without the blood tests at the beginning the Prascend has been absolutely amazing and there are huge differences in his condition and movement/lameness. I have now been able to progress with his rehab and have him up to 10 minutes of in-hand trotting daily, moving up 2 minutes per day per week.


I am not sure if testing at the end of the 60 days would be the correct thing or if it is best to try him without the Prascend and retest around February/March for an actual seasonal rise number? The vet is leaving that up to me and suggested I take the advice of the experts in this group on what the best test time would be.


I am very thankful he has done so well on the low doses. Prascend is expensive but the amount he is on allows me to refill every 4 months making it not as much of a hit on the wallet. If he was on higher doses we would switch to the compound pergolide. For his feet we have changed him from an every 6 week farrier cycle to every 3 weeks. He gets more frequent checks and is rasped instead of the aggressive trimming he used to require. Weeks 4-6 he would grow so fast and it didn't help his lameness out at all. The 3 weeks cycle has so far been so much better for him.  His laminitis is healing very well and it is very easy to see the changes with each farrier cycle. We are also rotating venice turpentine and durasole every other day for his soles. They became rather soft during his stall rest and he would bruise and abscess easily. 

As far as his weight, he did tape at 850 when we got him (13.1 hh). He is now taping at 680 and looks so much better.

Kendra and Opie
Washington
7/2013
 

From: "threecatfarm@... [EquineCushings]"
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 3:39 PM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: Best Time to Test and Pictures of Chnges

 




Conference Proceedings & Recordings
 



---In EquineCushings@..., wrote :


He is doing very well on the Prascend. He is no longer sore in his feet and his appetite has gone way down. He no longer freaks out when it is time to eat. I never realized just how ravenous he actually was until now. He has gone off his feed a bit. Could this be a delayed pergolide veil or could it just be that his body is now finally becoming normal?


 



Re: Toothless pony having hard time w. soaked ODTB

Nancy C
 

Not Lorna, but I think she went to the stable and I have experience with this too in below zero weather.

Yes to exact amount of water.

Try a heated or insulated water bucket.  Heated bucket is less expensive to buy.  More expensive to run.

Allied Precision Heated Flat - Back Bucket (Capacity: 10 Qt) at Blain's Farm & Fleet

 



http://www.doversaddlery.com/insulate-bucket-holder/p/X1-27467/?eid=X18A00U1000&kc=CM14DCSE&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=CSE&utm_campaign=MerchantAdv&zmam=1460880&zmas=1&zmac=114&zmap=0027467011000X1-27467&mkwid=ffd0Lvug&pcrid=58745374687&pdv=c&gclid=CKjOhNGs0sICFUwV7AodaEoA5Q

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 



---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Hi Lorna,
The ODTB often have a hard dry center even when the rest of it fluffs
up. If I add more water sometimes its just a soggy mess (and cold!).


 


Now: Understanding Pergolide/Prascend and Compounding

ThePitchforkPrincess@...
 

Lorna, brilliant idea!  
I've often thought to try and explain this using chocolate instead of pergolide:
Lets pretend that chocolate is a drug.  Each sentence is basically the same to help explain the similarities:

Chocolate is a drug.  You can go to a fancy chocolate shop with your prescription and get the chocolatier to make a special order just for you with exactly the right amount of chocolate (strength) you need in preferred form: drops, milkshakes, even powder to sprinkle over your toast . 

Pergolide is a drug.  You can go to a compounding pharmacy with your prescription and get the pharmacist formulate a special order  just for you with exactly the right amount of pergolide (strength) you need in preferred form: tablets, capsules or loose powder.

Chocolate is made commercially available by Hersheys - a candy company.  It sells chocolate under the brand name of "Mr.Goodbar"

Pergolide is made commercially available by Boehringer Ingelheim - a pharmaceutical company.  It sells pergolide under the brand name of "Prascend".  

In the above scenarios, Chocolate is the main ingredient in Mr. Goodbar.   You get chocolate in Mr. Goodbar.
Pergolide is the main ingredient in Prascend.  You get perolide in Prascend.  

"Prascend" is nothing more than a brand name for pergolide.  It only comes in 1mg dosages and has blister pack packaging that may give it longer shelf life by reducing the amount of humidity it is exposed to.  

I hope this helps members who are having a hard time figuring understanding the difference between pergolide and Prascend - Nothing other than its price, packaging and a bunch of laws/regulations that due to cost can usually be worked around by ordering different strengths from a compounding pharmacy. Boehringer Ingelheim (often referred to BI on this list) probably would disagree as they have a big interest in cornering the market (via the FDA regulations) and stand to make a lot of money.  Of course the pharmacies will be making money too, but not as much.  BI says that their product is superior to compounded.  The jury is still out on that as far as I know.  A search through older messages and the files will show this.  
Regardless, the bottom line is usually price for most horse owners - especially the ones who have horses on dosages of more than a few mgs.  

As usual, if there is anything wrong in what I've written, please volunteers speak up!  I'm just the file clerk, not one of the you amazing people who answer questions.  


-LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario

ECIR Archivist 03/2004

ECIR Files Table of Contents


Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials



Re: Insulin & glucose results...not good?

Nancy C
 

Hi LJ and all

It may not feel like it at the time you are trying to negotiate what is often a new way of thinking about horse management, however, what is recommended here is backed by research and 1000s of experiences and found to get the best out of dollars expended.

As you read more, you will also hear recommendations for things that are perhaps more expensive but have been found to be worth it in he long run when saving vets bills or supplements or herbal protocols that don't work. We're all focused on not wasting money while giving our horses the best chance possible to be healthy and happy, too often while helping them climb back from a devastating case of laminitis and founder.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <windybriars@...> wrote :


Please reread all the responses to Erin's posts. You'll be happy to see several plan B's.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

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Re: Toothless pony having hard time w. soaked ODTB

beverly meyer
 

Hi Lorna,
The ODTB often have a hard dry center even when the rest of it fluffs
up. If I add more water sometimes its just a soggy mess (and cold!).
Do I just need to get the exact amount of water to get it to soak into
the center?
I give it half an hour - should be enough, right? And stir hard to
break them up.
Any other ideas?
I used to feed Timothy/Alfalfa pellets and they soaked up nicely with no
hidden hard parts.
Thanks,
Beverly 6/14


--
Beverly Meyer, MBA
Clinical and Holistic Nutritionist
www.ondietandhealth.com
Facebook: Beverly Meyer on Diet and Health
Radio: Primal Diet - Modern Health


Re: Insulin & glucose results...not good?

Nancy C
 

Sorry...forgot sig to last message.

Happy Holidays!

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <threecatfarm@...> wrote :

Thanks for this idea Lorna.  This could be a lot easier in teh winter than my solidified syringes of olive oil and jherb.

Just a comment in general: if there is ever a question about product, the company should be contacted.   I know herbalcom may be a bit harder to get in contact with but they do have a feedback button.


---In EquineCushings@..., <windybriars@...> wrote :



I really like the smell of Jiaogulan,for example. I also,if memory serves,like the aromas from any Chinese herbs I have worked with.
I know most horses seem to like the J-Herb. Many of us just feed it from our hands,or make a bit of a paste,to save it being snorted away.



Re: Insulin & glucose results...not good?

Nancy C
 

Thanks for this idea Lorna.  This could be a lot easier in teh winter than my solidified syringes of olive oil and jherb.

Just a comment in general: if there is ever a question about product, the company should be contacted.   I know herbalcom may be a bit harder to get in contact with but they do have a feedback button.


---In EquineCushings@..., <windybriars@...> wrote :



I really like the smell of Jiaogulan,for example. I also,if memory serves,like the aromas from any Chinese herbs I have worked with.
I know most horses seem to like the J-Herb. Many of us just feed it from our hands,or make a bit of a paste,to save it being snorted away.



Re: WAS: Best Time to Test NOW: Spring

Kerry Isherwood
 

Fascinating! Thanks so much for the explanation. Ill def look into the archives et al. And ill pull my mares bloodwork to see if there was a bump in the insulin last Feb. Very interesting....

Thanks so much!
Kerry in NY
Sept 2014


Re: Insulin & glucose results...not good?

Lorna Cane
 



> The bag says Jiaogulan (Gynostemma pentaphyllum) powder, and its a taupe colored powder with a strong, foul herbal smell. I used to use Chinese herbs myself, and I found that most Chinese herbs have a very foul smell/taste to them. 

This is interesting.
I have to wonder how much it applies to our horses,too,wrt how we humans think of smells differently.

I really like the smell of Jiaogulan,for example. I also,if memory serves,like the aromas from any Chinese herbs I have worked with.
I know most horses seem to like the J-Herb. Many of us just feed it from our hands,or make a bit of a paste,to save it being snorted away.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

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Re: Insulin & glucose results...not good?

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Lj,

>Erin, and reading your post because I am new to the website I'm hoping that the moderators can find you a Plan B approach which can be less expensive. 

Please reread all the responses to Erin's posts. You'll be happy to see several plan B's.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

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Re: Toothless pony having hard time w. soaked ODTB

Lorna Cane
 



>If your pony cannot eat the cubes why not try something like Timothy pellets? 

The ODTBC are a balanced ration,low in ESC+Starch.
Timothy pellets are not a balanced feed.Not sure about the ESC+Starch.
Important details for IR horses.

I can't imagine timothy pellets with water added being any easier to eat than the ODTBC with water added.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

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Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

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Re: Toothless pony having hard time w. soaked ODTB

lj friedman
 

If your pony cannot eat the cubes why not try something like Timothy pellets? LjFriedman San Diego November 2014

Sent from my iPhone


Re: Insulin & glucose results...not good?

lj friedman
 

Erin, and reading your post because I am new to the website I'm hoping that the moderators can find you a Plan B approach which can be less expensive. LJ Friedman San Diego November 2014

Sent from my iPhone


WAS: Best Time to Test NOW: Spring

Nancy C
 

Hi Kerry

Don't panic.  Not yet any way.

Spring can be hard for some IR horses, especially mares.  But it's Feb/Mar, not mid-July.  I'll stick my neck out and say, like me, your mid-July was likely PPID related.

Take a look at Dr Kellon's proceeding on mares at the link below my signature.  I hope she will be doing more at the next conference as well.

There's lots more in the messages archives as well.  this has been noted by the group since 2002.  :-)  If you do an advanced search with drkellon as the author and mares in the message window, you should find lots more discussion.

Gotta run.  If you can't find it, I can help again tomorrow.

Breathe and hug your girl.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 





---In EquineCushings@..., <kerry.isherwood@...> wrote :



Are there two seasonal rises to worry about with PPID per year? I'm a PPID newbie (since Oct 2014). My mare is(was) also severely IR and has consistently fallen apart each year starting mid-July.


Re: Best Time to Test and Pictures of Chnges

Nancy C
 

Hi Kendra

Good work. What a cutie he is.

Talk about veil first.....it depends on what you mean by "off his feed a bit".  From your CH  it sounds like he was ravenous.  Are you weighing his food?  If you can gauge how much he's eating now vs his weight, you  may find he's okay. The veil usually happens right away.

Since he's 15, he was normal in 2013 and you did not test prior to this trial, you've got a few things to consider. Was this just seasonal rise? A result of his other lameness issues? 

If you want to see where he is right now in December on 0.05 mg of pergolide, test at day 60 s you planned.

He's not on a lot of pergolide.  He may not need the pergolide year round.  If he's doing well, all things being equal, you might wait until full blown spring (ie, May) and have him tested then. Want to keep a good track of symptoms on a regular basis and if there are any foot issues AT ALL put him right back on the pergolide.

More info here:

Pergolide

 



As for spring rise......it comes about Feb/Mar and affects mares (mostly) and their IR control.  More about mares in the Proceedings. See link under my signature

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 




---In EquineCushings@..., <jaggirl47@...> wrote :


He is doing very well on the Prascend. He is no longer sore in his feet and his appetite has gone way down. He no longer freaks out when it is time to eat. I never realized just how ravenous he actually was until now. He has gone off his feed a bit. Could this be a delayed pergolide veil or could it just be that his body is now finally becoming normal?



https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files/Kendra-Washington/

 


Re: Insulin & glucose results...not good?

Nancy C
 

As with most things about horse looking at the color or coat may not tell you the whole story.  While it may seem simple on paper there are issues that may be helped by tighter balancing. Magnesium is huge for IR as is Zinc. For those interested in learning more please see NO Laminitis proceeding (link below)

ECIR 2013 Proceedings Kellon Mineral Nutrition and Insulin Resistance


If you are a grad of Dr Kellon's NRC plus course, you can get help or a review or tweaking from the NRC Plus Grads Group on Yahoo. NRC Plus are the guidelines for balancing that we follow in this group.  They are much tighter than any other source. You'd have to figure out how to share what you have already done.  There's also great stuff in the files there.

I get my jherb form herbalcom. I've found watching for the pink gums is the real story. Because syringing in is better than in food, using the whole herb was not preferable for me. 

Recommend taking a close look at the other herbs you are giving as outlined in your CH.  As Eva pointed out they may not be helping and could save you a few dollars.

Many members test only once or twice a year, once they understand how the cycles run for these horses and can gauge how their horses are doing by symptoms. 

It may feel like we're just nit-picking but our mission is to help pull apart the confounding factors and give you the best advice possible.  This is the internet. We're not there on the ground with you.   You presented concerns about issues. We give you the best response possible based on your facts as presented.

At any time there are at minimum a couple 100 members reading these posts. For everyone struggling here's a great thought from Dr Kellon:

"Hope is not gone until you choose to abandon it."

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Invest in the health of your horse and help ECIR Group nonprofit at the same time! Hear Drs Kellon, Bowker and more, in eight hours of great info and informative Q&A from 2013 NO Laminitis! Conference.

Conference Proceedings & Recordings

 







Quite honestly, between the pergolide, blankets, testing, supplements, etc its looking more and more like keeping Bella around isn't financially sustainable in the long run. If she's going to need to have insulin, glucose and ACTH run several times a year and more and more pergolide then I'm going to have to make a very hard decision at some point. The plan now is to wait and see in the spring. If things keep deteriorating, then I'm not going to have much choice. 

Erin
ME
2014
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Bella/

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