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Re: X-ray/radiograph guidelines
newuser1971@...
Thanks Pauline; you're definitely turning into my "go to" person :o) Sarah Harris Mt Mee, QLD, Australia Joined: March 2015 |
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Re: New hoof photos, opinions on why so sore??
Hi Tiffany, >I have posted new hoof photos and updated Maggie's case history slightly. I was interested in looking at her photos,for my own education. Agree with Lavinia . If it isn't possible to have her stand on solid flooring,or mats, can you put a small piece of plywood under her hoof so that it is on a solid base,no shavings,etc. Then put the camera on the floor/plywood to take the lateral shots? That allows a good view of what the hoof wall does as it meets the floor/solid surface,as opposed to an angled view from above . Lorna in Ontario,Canada
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
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Re: Alternatives to Bute
ferne fedeli
Thanks, Lorna. I learn something new every day!!! Ferne On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 9:44 AM, windybriars@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
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Diagnosing PPID
christina g
Hi everyone, I'm having a bit of trouble navigating through everything here and figuring out what order I need to do everything. I have tried filling out the case history form and I can't seem to find an easy way to edit it? I can't add text in pdf and it won't let me activate "edit mode". I've tried in an open office program but it's a completely new program to me so I am fumbling. But I have a lot of questions! I have a situation that would be less common and there doesn't seem to be a lot of info or much support for the equines that are not also IR when trying to diagnose :( (not within the site obviously but even discussing things with the barn vet) Sorry for getting so stuck! - Christina & DJ |
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New hoof photos, opinions on why so sore??
Tiffany Woodward
I have posted new hoof photos and updated Maggie's case history slightly. After about 2.5 really good weeks on jiaogulan, Maggie slowly became increasing painful again. It first started with just slightly reduced movement, and progressed to showing a lot of pain...especially on her left front. She is still wearing boots/pads essentially 24/7, and has been really since the beginning back in September.
I was originally thinking abscess, but I can't find any heat or really any evidence of an abscess getting ready to burst. I also worried that Maggie may have moved too much and caused more damage while she was first put on the jiaogulan. There were days when she was seriously bouncing off the walls. She had a trim with the farrier on 3/19. When I came down on 3/20, Maggie was so painful in the back feet that she could barely walk. She was constantly shifting weight and reluctant to even let me look at them. I put an extra pair of boots on the back feet and contacted the farrier, who said she did take a lot of toe, but didn't feel that it was extreme. She has slowly gotten better on the back feet and today (3/25) seems almost back to normal, so I've left the boots off the back for now. I posted pictures of her hind feet as well. My question(s): 1) What are your opinions on her front feet and why she's so sore again? Could it still be abscess related? Injury related? Or do you see something that indicates it's a trim problem? Today, she almost avoids putting weight on her left front when she moves. When standing still, she does weight it but of course shifts between left & right. 2) When looking at the back feet, does it appear that the trim was too short and caused her to be so painful on the hind feet for several days? Too much toe removed? Too much sole? Tiffany in NC Nov. 2014 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/TiffanyWoodward%20and%20Maggie/ https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/photos/albums/540173897 |
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Re: Haylage question
lars_a_swe
---In EquineCushings@..., <jennifermandy@...> wrote : > Are there any problems considering haylage and IR? Any reason to rule it out? Short answer: No, there is no reason to rule it out. Whether haylage is a problem or not for IR horses or mules depends on the sugar and starch content. The sugar and starch content in haylage can be lower or higher than in hay so you need an analysis to determine whether the haylage you are buying is appropriate to feed your IR mule. Lars Sweden, July 2008Â |
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Re: Alternatives to Bute
>Sue, could you use a bigger font? Â Fern, hit Reply,and change the size of the font ( Tt ) at the top of the Message window. Don't forget to delete the old messages before you hit Send. Lorna in Ontario,Canada
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
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Re: Poseido's lab results
Maggie
Hi Coral, I'm on the run, but wanted to address a couple of things real quick.  ALL horses experience the seasonal rise in the fall (in the Northern hemisphere) but PPID horses can have a prolonged and exaggerated rise in their ACTH during the seasonal rise time which puts them at risk for fall laminitis.  Have a read on this page of our website for more details:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/seasonal-rise  PPID horses are not necessarily IR.  IR is more a metabolic type of horse, usually easy keepers, while PPID is caused by a benign tumor or hyperplasia in the pituitary gland.  Read more about PPID here: http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease  Any horse can have just IR, just PPID, or both (or neither, of course--and don't we all on this list dream of that!)  The problem in PPID horses is that an elevated ACTH can drive the insulin up causing them to also be IR, even if they aren't IR at baseline.  The leptin level can help to differentiate that.  Also there is some evidence that the long term oxidative stress of IR can predispose a horse to developing PPID. I can totally identify with your frustration wrt slow feeder hay nets.  I have some of those Tough 1"slow feeders" and they really don't slow mine down!  I doubled and then tried tripling them, but that seemed too hard for Chancey.  I finally found these greedy feeder hay nets:   https://stagecoachwest.com/greedy-feeder-p-5194.html Chancey is very aggressive with them, and they have held up quite well.  They have 1" holes rather than the ~2-3" holes of the Tough1's.  Still, I divide his allotted hay amount up into smaller portions and hang them several times/day.  I also have a system where I hang them from the rafters in the overhang of the barn so they are free hanging.  He could eat the hay too fast if he could push the net up against a wall or pole.  I tried many things before this system, but have been doing it this way quite awhile now.  You just need to play around and see what works best for you.  Eventually you will settle on something that provides hay for as much of 24 hours as possible with only small amounts of time where Po has no food. As far as riding, yes, you should be able to eventually ride Po again if you get and keep him sound, keep him away from any laminitis triggers, keep his trim tight.  Exercise is actually the best IR buster there is!!  But you will need to wait to ride him until his foundered feet are well grown out, and he has nice new tight lamilar connections at least 2/3 of the way down his hoof wall.  Better, even if the entire "bad" foot is grown out, which takes about a year.  Some horses take even longer before they have a sound foot again. Lots of us have had to educate our vets about PPID and IR.  Vets are well rounded and there's a lot to keep up with!  You may want to refer your vet to our website, http://ecirhorse.org/  He can peruse all the information there, including the proceedings from the 2013 No Laminitis conference.  Those proceedings can also be found on the IVIS website.  He is probably already a member of that and only needs to search for No Laminitis to find the articles.  You can join as well (it's free), or read the proceedings on our website. Hope that helps some! Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA March 2011 EC moderator/Primary Response |
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Re: Alternatives to Bute
ThePitchforkPrincess@...
>>>>>If there is a change for the better with the Prascend,how will we know that the same change wouldn't have come about with the same dosage increase in the compounded product?
Ha, we won't.  I think Dr. E believes that Prascend is everything BI says.  Dr. E thinks that 3mg of Prascend will control Dawn's ACTH - that isn't with the 36 mg of compounded, but instead of.  Well that was her answer when I asked how much she thought it would cost for 36mg a day of Prascend.  When I told her all pergolide mesylate comes from China and unless Prascend is making it themselves it can't be all that different than the stuff coming from pharmacies, that is when she said fillers can really effect the efficacy of the pergolide. So now I've found out about what fillers used by the two compounding pharmacies discussed (Island and Summit)  Both test their pergolide for potency, they both use inert fillers.  Different ones which is good so that if I have to try Summit's to see if Dawn really does have a problem with the lactose (yes Dawn would end up being a lactose intolerant horse) in Island's capsules, and it helps her get control of ACTH, Yay a winner.  Of course the answer of exactly WHY will not be answered but it can't hurt to try.  Ha it will be interesting  to hear the conversation when the vet askes for 36 mg capsules from a new pharmacy.  Of course, this is all moot as in a few weeks when Dawn's ACTH comes down we won't know if it was the prascend or just the natural fall in ACTH after the hormonal upheaval.  No one will see what really works because we just can't get the science done. Though IF Dawn shows veil (she hasn't on 1mg increases with no tapering on the compounded) that will for me, be an interesting point.  I doubt she will and in my books will put the idea that prascend is so much better than compounded to rest.  Not what vets or BI would say but hey, if they to pay to test the efficacy of my samples, then we will all find out.  I don't think there is going to be that much difference in the pergolide/potency or filler.  If I did, I wouldn't risk Dawn going on it.  If one prascend is equal to 10g or so of compounded, that would be a foolish increase.  Sorry if this post is a little erratic, but I have to get off this computer ;-) |
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Re: Alternatives to Bute
ferne fedeli
Sue, could you use a bigger font? Your post has such tiny print, I get eye strain trying to read it. Ferne Fedeli No. California 4/2010 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 8:45 AM, sue wolf wolffarm4@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
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Re: Alternatives to Bute
sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
Hello, I know its hard not to give bute when there in pain.. I'm guilty of that also.. I have to say the cytek shoeing is the best type of shoe to have on if you have to have a shoe on.. just make sure that the toes are back and heels low.. that's what you have to watch out for, not all cytek blacksmith are good.. I had one and hes talk was good but when it came down to doing the job it was not right. I almost lost princess when I had my knee surg because of blacksmiths.. they just didn't understand heels low and toes back.. if you keep that, that's half your battle. then the diet.. princess has not gone out of her stall in moths, and yes I'm giving her the bute it helps... I know its a big no no but she was losing weight and fading away.. and it helps... have you ever tried the Peggie fleming herbs from California? she has one that for founder horses and I have princess on that and I can give it with the bute . I've seen results with princess.. its just a thought.. she has a web sight and shes wonderful on helping.. not saying that the help here is not great but if its not working you have to keep looking and tiring things. just remember to keep the diet tight and the same..not one size works for everyones horse.. I leave princess door open in hopes shes feeling friskie and comes out to visit me in the barn.... sadly not yet.. she does not have shoes on or boots on, it seems to make her worse but she does have socks on to keep stuff out of her abscessed areas. lotss and lots of sawdust. she is still draining from the one abscess and its been 3 weeks.. what I'm tiring to say in short.. its hard, and you feel like your banging your head against the wall but don't give up.. keep tiring new things and you'll fine that happy balance..give it time to help. you are there with your horse and seeing it everyday and do what you think is helping dawn.. good luck.. I just had 6 months of hell with princess and with the changes in the trim and herbs shes up and EATING, slowly moving around.. were getting there sincerely, Sue & princess. oh 6/11 On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 9:10 AM, "ThePitchforkPrincess@... [EquineCushings]" wrote: Hi Dawn Hello Nancy, this is LeeAnne, Dawn is the horse ;-) >>>I would not use NSAIDs in a horse suspected of laminitis or abscess unless she is in acute stage and not eating. I know how hard the temptation is to give it though. It is very hard. Too late for that, and I'm pretty sure we were and maybe still are in the acute stage. Or maybe I don't understand what the meaning of Acute Laminitis is?  All I know is that Dawn came in sore Thursday. She had been a little sore for the previous week but Thursday was 7/10 lame on the left front. Dawn, thank god is still eating.  I'm sure she is sore on all four feet but especially the left front and is in no condition to be walking around on hard ice and hoof-pocked frozen mud.   Nancy, in case anyone else is reading this and maybe in the same position with their vet down the road, what should I have done?  What choice is there other than NSAID  when she already was on 12 grams of  jherb?  Besides, I thought jherb because it opens up the blood vessels is not good to give during acute stage?  Or am I missing something again?  >>>>If you read Dr Kellon and Dr Bowker, the key to getting them comfortable is via the trim after removing the trigger. I don't need to read it I know it.  I've been doing my best to stop the trigger since joining the ECIR.  Yes I think I've done my best... 36 mg of pergolide per day to try and get ACTH under control.  A total diet of only ECIR approved food, muzzle for turn out.  Clearly this has not worked on the trigger :-( I'm sorry but I don't agree that Dawn's feet are so horrible. My farrier and the group do not agree and but I'm not changing farriers. I think the cytek shoes are doing a lot to help with their support of the coffin bone and provide protection from ground that is always muddy  (even in summer) or  just frozen churned up mud at this time of year.  Switching farriers will mean having to go to traditional shoes (boots won't work) and Dawn would lose the coffin bone support that Cytek shoes provide. >>>To be safe I would taper off the bute and would go back on the jherb. Gladly but in this situation of Dawn being sore while on 12g /day of Jherb, and then put on bute last Thursday to manage her pain, I need to know:
>>>>>Not sure I understand about what the boots do to her feet  As a boarder with limited funds and a PPID horse who needs special trips to barn to give her enough time to eat her cubes, I'm boarding in back yard barns.  Boots will not work.  Even if I had the time, I can't drive out to the barn 3 times a day to guess at the barn owner's schedule so I can put on or remove boots.  Even if the barn owner were willing to do this, he just doesn't have the skill.  He needs diagrams to do up regular uncomplicated belly straps on blankets, the intricacies of putting on Dawn's Easy Boot Gloves would result in lost boots at best.  So if Dawn has boots on they would have to be on 24/7 - and that would quickly soften her hooves.   Right now she's staying in her stall.  Not the best answer but the only one that is realistic in our situation. She is happy enough in there and at least is on soft dry footing.  She actually doesn't want to go out right now.  Even if I could get to the barn 3x a day, duct tape and foam aren't going to hold up on ice or the 8 inches of water, mud and stones when the weather warms up.  >>>>She may be body sore too and that could be what you are seeing. Lots of massage.  Yes I'm sure she is. She stands so strangely (the opposite of founder stance in the front) I will try massage but but have no idea how.  I'm more concerned about trying to help her over this hoof pain, till her hormones stop producing so much ACTH or the Prascend comes.;  Thanks to Dr. Jim it is coming Wednesday instead of the three weeks from now.  Hooray. The magical miracle of Prascend can then fix her forever. Or not. >>>You had previously mentioned some rotation, I thought. Do you want to share rads and pics? I have always shared my pics and xrays and posted the links.  The latest xrays of her left front were posted yesterday.  Things got a little weird Friday when the xray showed a nail that was in her wall but not clenched. Everyone was shocked at the nail.  Knowing that the group and my farrier don't' agree, I clearly needed to ask him about the nail before uploading the xrays.  He did it on purpose and said it is something that is done to help keep a shoe on when not enough nails can be used due to crumbly feet.  He thought he had told me he done it.  Anyway the bottom line, according to the vets on Friday is that she doesn't have rotation or if so, very little. They think it is underlying laminitis.   - LeeAnne & Dawn, Newmarket, Ontario 03/2004  |
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Re: Mini Donkeys and IR
Teri
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Re: Mini Donkeys and IR
Hi Teri,
>  I know next to nothing about donkeys, but the red flags are flying!!!! You are absolutely correct, especially about minis! I think I lost my mini donk , Benjamin, a number of years ago because I wasn't vigilant enough in this regard. They are VERY prone to IR/laminitis.  Lorna in Ontario,Canada ECIR Moderator 2002
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
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Re: X-ray/radiograph guidelines
takarri@...
 Hi Sarah,
There is a sister group- called EC Hoof that has a good description on how to take correct radiographs. EquineCushings & IR Hoof Photos & X-Rays
 Yes.. sigh .. another group to join . In the files you should find this  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHoof/info which will give your vet some guidelines..Good luck with it all. Pauline & Spur Sth West Vic Australia Aug 07 EC Primary Response ---In EquineCushings@..., <newuser1971@...> wrote : Just wondering if there are any x-ray/radiograph guidelines included somewhere in this group please? I  |
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X-ray/radiograph guidelines
newuser1971@...
Just wondering if there are any x-ray/radiograph guidelines included somewhere in this group please? I am still waiting to get an appointment for Bonnie to have bloods drawn and am thinking of having her feet x-rayed at the same time. I noted a comment earlier about where the nail was taped?? Which makes me think there are some instructions on radiographs but I can't find them. Could somebody point me in the right direction please so that I can get x-rays that are useful. Thank you :o) Sarah Harris Mt Mee, Queensland, Australia Joined: March 2015 |
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Prascend
martha williams
B.I. uses croscarmellose, among other things.....supposedly it functions as a dispersant..... |
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Mini Donkeys and IR
Teri
One of my friends is getting 2 yearling mini donkeys. Â The breeder has told her they need a mineral block (not a white salt bock), told her he gives them a 10% sweet feed (only a cup once a day) and that he lets them out on pasture. Â He did say she should feed only grass hay. Â I know next to nothing about donkeys, but the red flags are flying!!!! Â When I expressed my concerns she said, "He's raised donkeys for years and he shows them. Â He says his donkeys have never had a problem with laminitis." Before I stick my big nose in too far....am I being paranoid? Â Are the 'rules' the same for these little guys? Teri and Stormy Indy 2012 |
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Re: Just read "Reproductive Abnormalities in Mares with diet resistant Insuline Resistance from 2013 No Laminitis proceedings!
Ellen
My heart aches for you. I fully empathize with your feelings ofguilt and loss- but you did the best you could with the information you had for your beloved mare. Even with the most up to date information and treatment there are no guarantees that the out come would have been any different. She was loved and you gave her the gift of freedom from pain. Ellen and Annie March 2013 Long Island, NY Oh, Leeanne - we can only do the best we can with the information we have. > I know you tried so hard, and when the suffering becomes unbearable, then > one has to bravely make the right choice to end the suffering. That is > the hard part about new information - it takes time to get out to > everybody. I know I have euthanized dogs (one dog in particular), and a > year later a remedy was worked out that would have saved them. > Malika knows you did your best. You have nothing to feel guilty about - > however, I also know that often that is part of the grieving process. > She is looking down at you thanking you for being her mum, and for always > putting her needs first. > Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy > BC 09 > ECIR mod/support > https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/ groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini% > 20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/ > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/ |
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Re: Pracsend and compounded at the same time?
ThePitchforkPrincess@...
HI Lorna,Â
I called Summit this afternoon.  They use a "placebo" blend in their capsules. The ingredients are "inert" and "not counter active" to pergolide. The most of it is micro crystalline cellulose, 1% silicon(?) dioxide, 2% Sodium Stearyl Fumarate and  Starch Glycolate (Gah I hope these are spelled correctly!) I believe Island pharmacy uses "Lactose".  It would be interesting if we knew exactly what BI uses. Oh and they said they also do regular testing to make sure the pergolide is potent.  - LeeAnne & Dawn, Newmarket, Ontario 03/2004 |
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Re: Just read "Reproductive Abnormalities in Mares with diet resistant Insuline Resistance from 2013 No Laminitis proceedings!
janieclougher@...
Oh, Leeanne - we can only do the best we can with the information we have. I know you tried so hard, and when the suffering becomes unbearable, then one has to bravely make the right choice to end the suffering. That is the hard part about new information - it takes time to get out to everybody. I know I have euthanized dogs (one dog in particular), and a year later a remedy was worked out that would have saved them.
Malika knows you did your best. You have nothing to feel guilty about - however, I also know that often that is part of the grieving process. She is looking down at you thanking you for being her mum, and for always putting her needs first. Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy BC 09 ECIR mod/support https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/ groups/ECHistory/files/Jaini% 20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/ |
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