Date   

Re: Please help. New to all of this.

Tiffany Woodward
 

I am having some difficulty joining the case history group.  I receive a message saying that there was an error in processing the request.  I made several attempts.

She was tested for PPID (at the same time for IR & thyroid)  and I was notified that her results for ACTH were normal and did not indicate Cushing's.  The vet put her on the Thyro-L because her levels were lower and she believed it may help with metabolism.  She has lost some weight, although I'm not sure if that's due to her eating only hay for a few weeks or the Thyro-L or both.  All vets that have seen her so far (three) felt that she did not look like a typical IR horse.  She had no fat deposits, cresty neck, etc.  In fact, she has never really been what I would consider an easy keeper.  Until this occurred, she was ridden regularly (4-5 times per week).  She was approved to go into round pen turnout prior to the latest setback, so we never made it to that point.

She receives no treats, grass, or anything extra at this point.  She was not out on pasture prior to the laminitis, although I did hand graze her on a fairly regular basis (10-15 minutes on days when I rode her).  I did purchase a hay net at the vet's recommendation, although when I asked about soaking hay, I was told it wasn't necessary.  I will check on the availability of Triple Crown.  The Safe Choice Special Care was what I was told to purchase by the vet, so that's why I've been using it.

We have not altered the pad in the Soft Ride.  She has had 2 trims at this point (the first when we pulled shoes, and the second on Nov. 7th).  When the vet was down this weekend to look at her sole & take another set of x-rays, she did recommend taking her toe back.  The owner of my boarding barn has previously worked as a farrier and is willing/able to begin making minor adjustments as soon as we get her comfortable again.


Re: Mare in late pregnancy - with laminitis - new board member

Nancy C
 

Hi Emma

Thanks for your case history. Your link worked fine.


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Emma%20and%20Hickory/

 

Have you been able to incorporate the suggestions Pauline made in her earlier message?

Tell us how she is doing now?  1.5 to 1.7% of her weight in food is not excessive. Hope we can find you better hay.

Hang in there. Don't forget to sign your posts.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 



---In EquineCushings@..., <ozhorse60@...> wrote :


I just posted a case history for Hickory to the case history site


 


Peroglide capsules

lj friedman
 

Someone told me they get generic paraglide capsules for around $60 a month for 1 mg Is this true? Any contact information for this? Lj friedman san diego nov 14

Sent from my iPhone


Re: Please help. New to all of this.

Maggie
 

>>Tiffany Woodward - located in eastern North Carolina...

 
Hi Tiffany,
 
Welcome to the list, but sorry that you need us.  You've given us a lot of helpful information about Maggie and I can give you some good advice based on that information, but I still will have some questions for you.  To really give the details that we need to help you and Maggie better, I need you to fill out a case history on her.  You will need to join our sister group, called ECH8 to fill out her CH, but it shouldn't take long to get approved.  Joining, actually, has seemed to be more of an issue with the changes yahoo made of late called Neo.  Anyway, here is the link to that group:  https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/info  If you have any trouble joining, just let us know and we will send you an invite.  The CH itself is actually easy to fill out.  In the meantime, let me tell you about our philosophy called DDT/E which stands for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.  If all four aspects are in place, you should see good results. 
 
So first, Diagnosis.  You said that Maggie was diagnosed as insulin resistant (IR), but did you also have her tested for Cushing's (PPID)?  At the age of 10, it's not the most likely scenario, but the fact that she got laminitis in October is very suspicious for Cushing's due to the seasonal rise.  The seasonal rise is a period of time in the fall, when all horses have a  natural rise in their ACTH, but Cushing's horses have an exaggerated and often prolonged rise their ACTH, putting them at risk for fall laminitis.  You can read more details about the seasonal rise on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/seasonal-rise  In fact, our website has a wealth of information about PPID and IR, so it's a great place to get an education about the 2 conditions.  Also, a great place to send your vet for the most up to date information.   Cushing's disease (PPID) and IR are 2 distinctly separate conditions that have some overlapping symptoms and sometimes that makes the diagnosis difficult.  Also, a horse can have just PPID, just IR, or both (or neither, of course).  The tests that we recommend to help get a complete diagnosis are these four:  ACTH, insulin, glucose and leptin.  Once you have a complete diagnosis, then you know better how to treat.  PPID is treated with medicine (pergolide) and IR is treated with diet.  If a horse has both PPID and IR, then she would need both pergolide and careful management of her diet for the rest of her life. 
 
So that brings me to the Diet part of our philosophy.  The IR diet is a forage based, mineral balanced low sugar starch, low fat diet.  We recommend grass hay, tested to be under 10% sugar + starch, with the minerals to balance the excesses and deficiencies that show in the hay analysis.  We also add iodized salt, and to replace what's lost in the hay curing process, we add Vitamin E and ground flax seed.  Until you can get your analyzed, you should put Maggie on the emergency diet.  The details can be found here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet  The emergency diet involves soaking her hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water to remove up to ~30% of the sugar content.  Make sure that you dump the water where the horse(s) can't get to it.  Add the salt, magnesium, ground flax seed and Vitamin E in weight appropriate amounts as listed.  At 11% starch, and 7% fat the Nutrena Safe Choice is not a good choice for Maggie.  There are safer choices to use as a carrier for your supplements.  Rinsed, soaked rinsed beet pulp is one.  Are Triple Crown products available in your area?  Triple Crown lite or dampened Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance (ODTB) cubes would be also be better choices.  A very important part of the IR diet is what you don't feed.  No grass, no grain, no sugary treats, including apples and carrots, no brown/red salt blocks, which contain iron, unknown minerals and may contain molasses.  You should feed Maggie 1.5-2% of her BW (weighed dry) in hay, divided up into 3 or 4 feedings/day.  It's as important not to underfeed her as it is not to overfeed her.  Do you have any small mesh hay nets?  We love these for not only slowing down the voracious appetite that an IR horse has, but also for hay soaking.  You can get a fish scale at Walmart in the sports department for about $10 to weigh hay.
 
Ok, on to Trim.  A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot.  Thanks for posting the xrays and the picture of the crack in her sole.  If you could also get some other hoof photos, that would be helpful.  Here's a site that shows how to take good hoof photos:  http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html  Once you take them, you can post them in the PHOTOS section of ECH8, the group you join to fill out Maggie's CH.  One of our hoof gurus should be able to take a look and make some trim recommendations.  Great that you have her in Soft Rides.  Have you altered the pad at all?  Sometimes the horse is more comfortable with the frog support part of the pad removed. 
 
Exercise.  The best IR buster there is, but obviously not a choice for Maggie at this point, since a laminitic horse should never be forced to move.  As she gets better and is able, you will want to start with hand walking her in long straight lines with no tight turns.  For now deep bedding and the boots are pads are definitely in order.
 
A couple of other thoughts.  We do not recommend Bute after the first few days of laminitis, as NSAIDS can actually interfere with the healing process.  And are you using the ThyroL to induce weight loss?  Or because Maggie's thyroid levels were on the low end of normal?  Primary hypothyroidism is very rare in horses and low thyroid levels are usually due to dietary imbalances.  Please read this post by Nancy and follow the links for more information:
 
Ok, Tiffany, I think I've given you enough information for one day.  Please read the information on our website.  There is also a TON of great information in our files and archived messages, tho Neo can make searching a bit of a challenge.  Don't hesitate to ask any questions you have.  We are here to help you help Maggie.  We ask all members to sign their name, general location and date of joining each time they post.  Also, once you get Maggie's CH filled out, please include a link to it in your signature as well.  It really helps us to help you faster!
 
Maggie, (who should not have any trouble remembering your horse's name!), Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/
 

 


Re: safe pergolide feeding for drug sniffer pony

Nancy C
 

Hi Erin

Sent a response to follow Lorna's concise answer which did not come through, but I'm still laughing at myself. 

OF COURSE if syringing in with water is the easiest by all means do that.

Thank you Lorna and Uncle Bob.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 






Re: adding BP for winter calories

Nancy C
 

Hi Beverly

I am not a math wizard, however,  did you try plugging in the numbers?  You may have been missing the DE of Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes which is .85 (Right, Aurellio?) but should have all else.

Here's another article that may help you: Google North Carolina State University College of Veterinary Medicine, Cold Weather Feeding Practices.

I hope you will try the numbers again.  If she is still ribby and you are sure your PPID is under control, she may need even more.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
Equine Cushing's and Insulin Resistance Group Inc.

 








---In EquineCushings@..., <bmeyer@...> wrote :

Hi Nancy,
I can't figure out this temperature/calorie table.


Re: Mare in late pregnancy - with laminitis - new board member

miz.crayon@...
 

I found this article online when my Morgan mare foundered. The sensible, wide ranging suggestions gave me hope that there were options both for me and my mare outside of the traditional medicine approach of bute, dry lot and hope for the best attitude of my local vets. I have since incorporated many of the article's tips along with a couple consultations with Dr. Joyce Harman into my program. Marlena has never looked better.



---In EquineCushings@..., <ozhorse60@...> wrote :


I just posted a case history for Hickory to the case history site



Re: safe pergolide feeding for drug sniffer pony

Nancy C
 

Hi Erin

I've gone through a lot of what you describe, It's very frustrating  and we've had to change and adapt a lot.  Beau, very high Insulin and Glucose, currently gets 20 pills with his breakfast. Then 12 at night.

With fewer pills I started with a grape.  He got tired of that and every morning was a battle.  We then went to a prune.  That worked for about  year.  Some folks are using hollowed out tiny carrot.  Nutrition data shows 1 gram of sugar in 1 baby carrot

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/3026/2

A pitted prune has 4 grams of sugar

  http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/2043/2

 

A grape has zero grams of sugar

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1919/2

Syringing in can work if you find a carrier they enjoy.  Right now, Beau is happy with olive oil with his jherb, for example. He licks the syringe when he is ready to accept the next bit.  If you check the picky eaters checklist you can find other ideas like, carrot powder or beet root powder that many horses like and are low sugar.

Go here
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/8%20Pulling%20it%20Together/
Scroll down to

Picky eater's checklist.pdf A checklist to help keep your sanity!


Now that Beau gets so many pills, I use a Cashell feed bag with a hand full of Nuzu.  Used to use it in just a bowl but got tired of chasing pills while he was swatting flies. He loves it and eargerly awaits his Nuzu and feed bag.  You may have already tried Nuzu but if not, write to Andersen Feed for a free sample.  


http://nuzufeed.com/Contact.php#Email

 


Whenever introducing new things, I've found it is important to introduce as a treat first, as opposed to a  meal change or a drug delivery system.  After 13 years of doing this for him, this little training change has made all the difference.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/equine-cushing-s-and-insulin-resistance-group-inc

 



 




---In EquineCushings@..., <chf1752@...> wrote :

I have pergolide capsules coming, and I'm a bit concerned about how I'm going to get them into Bella.



Re: safe pergolide feeding for drug sniffer pony

Lorna Cane
 


>The first pergolide I got for her was in powder form, so I was mixing it with some water and syringe feeding her that way. Very easy.


Open the capsule,add it to water,and Bob's your uncle.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf

https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc




safe pergolide feeding for drug sniffer pony

chf1752@...
 

I have pergolide capsules coming, and I'm a bit concerned about how I'm going to get them into Bella. She's very, very difficult about pills. However, she loves syringes w/ liquid. The first pergolide I got for her was in powder form, so I was mixing it with some water and syringe feeding her that way. Very easy.


She's really good at sniffing out pills in her feed, and she's also been known to eat around treats with pills hidden inside. I know the capsules are the best in terms of stability, but I really don't know how to get them into her. The only "treats" I ever give her are ODTBC, since I know the sugar/starch is safe for her.


She was diagnosed IR back in 2011, but had a normal ACTH at that time. The vet put her on 1mg pergolide anyway, but after a year there was no change in her weight even though she was on a low ESC+starch diet w/ balanced minerals. So I discontinued that.


She had her first bout of laminitis in April 2014 after getting chilled and colicing. She had her second bout of laminitis this past September, when her ACTH came back extremely high. This time, there's been a dramatic improvement in her weight with 1mg of pergolide twice a day.


My question is, since the IR came first with her, I need to be extremely careful about what treats I use to hide the pergolide capsules in, right? Through trial and error, I've found that she can't tolerate grain or beet pulp. The only supplement carrier that she'll eat is ODTBC. She refuses any wet feed.


What can I try to hide the pergolide capsule in? The vet told me to use a carrot or some molasses, but I'm afraid of triggering another laminitis episode. 


Would the capsule dissolve in water? Then I could syringe feed it. I found that if I use 10cc of water, she doesn't waste any. This would be preferable, since I think it'll be the easiest way to go long term.


I don't have current insulin and glucose levels on her, because the vet refused to draw them. I have a new vet coming in ~3 weeks, and hopefully I'll be able to get ACTH, insulin and glucose on her. 


Normally what happens with her is that I might be able to find a way to hide a capsule/tablet medication in a treat for a while. Eventually, she figures it out and winds up spitting the pill out after she eats around it. 


Erin

ME

2014

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory8/files/Bella/




Re: Need a mineral supplement

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Jacque,

Being as you generally get hay from the western US (correct?) you could try California Trace or Arizona Copper Complete (available from HorseTech in their custom and non-stock category).

We ask that you add your general location and year of joining  when you post - helps us to answer you more fully and quickly. Appreciate your assistance with this.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



Please help. New to all of this.

Tiffany Woodward
 

Tiffany Woodward - located in eastern North Carolina

My 10 year old Appaloosa mare "Maggie" was diagnosed with insulin resistance in early October following a sudden episode of laminitis and founder.  I was told that her thyroid levels were within normal range, but on the low end as well.

She had initial x-rays taken on Sept. 22nd which showed rotation in the left front (estimated at around 15 degrees), and little to no rotation in the right (1-2 degrees per the 2nd vet who looked at the x-rays).  I pulled her shoes on Sept. 26th per the first vet's advice, and put her in Soft Ride boots with laminitis pads on Sept. 29th.  Since the 1st vet did not come back out for bloodwork, a 2nd vet saw her and drew blood the following week, with results coming in on Oct. 8th. 

She ate hay only from Oct. 1st through Oct. 17th, and then she began eating Nutrena Safe Choice Special Care in small amounts.  She also began Thyroxine-L starting twice a day on Oct. 9th, and reducing to once a day starting Nov. 9th.  She was on varying amounts of Bute (1 gram twice a day at the onset, reduced to 1/2 gram twice a day, then 1/2 gram once a day, and then 1/2 gram every other day, and then no Bute and only Previcox).  Since Oct. 1st, Maggie has been improving slowly but steadily.  Her comfort level was increasing, she was allowing me to pick up and inspect her feet (during boot cleaning) every day, and she was very comfortable during her last foot trim on Nov. 7th.  A second set of x-rays was done on Nov. 5th showing very little change in the left front (originally estimated at 15 degrees and estimated at 17 degrees on Nov. 5th), and a lot of change in the right (estimated at 15 degrees).  Last week (11/9 - 11/15), she felt good enough to try to pace in her stall while waiting for feed (a habit she's had since she was very young) and even tried to bounce around her stall a little on the morning of Nov. 15th (we had a cold snap here in the east).

On the morning of Nov. 16th I noticed that she was very uncomfortable again, particularly on her right front.  She was rocking back in the laminitis stance and having a lot of difficulty bearing weight on her right front.  Her pulse was increased on that foot.  I contacted the vet clinic and the on call vet advised me to give 2 grams Bute 2x per day and she would see her on Monday the 17th.  While inspecting her feet on Nov. 16th, I noticed a crack on the sole that had not been there previously.  The vet came on Monday and when she saw the crack and felt the pulse, she felt that there was more rotation and perhaps sinking.  We took more x-rays (per my request) and the vet felt that they actually showed no change.  She was so uncomfortable that the x-rays were taken with her boots on, so measurements could not be done, but it was pretty apparent that there was no sinking, and there didn't appear to be any more rotation.  The vet speculated that she may have hurt herself while trying to play in her stall, and this was exacerbated by the cold weather, causing pain.  Why the crack appeared, I do not know.  The vet had no explanation with a lack of additional rotation/sinking.

Since Nov. 16th she has been receiving 2 grams of Bute twice a day, 2 1/2 cc of Ace three times per day, and is back on Thyroxine-L twice a day.  She was a little better Monday evening, and seemed quite a bit better on Tuesday evening as she was trying to pace in her stall again.  Then, this morning (Nov. 19th) she seems quite painful again and has gone back to laying down quite a bit.  When I took off the boot on her right front (while she was laying down) I noticed that there seemed to be a small amount of fluid draining from the crack on her sole.

Does anyone have any advice?  Are these sole cracks common even with a lack of sinking?  Is there anything else I can do beyond what I'm doing right now?  I'm including a link to all photos of x-rays and her sole that I have.

trwoodward17's Library on Photobucket

 




Need a mineral supplement

Jacque White
 

Can anyone recommend a well balanced mineral supplement for IR.  I need something without Iron,

Thanks, Jacque White


Re: Need a pelleted feed

ferne fedeli
 

I have used the ODTB cubes (soaked) since soon after my Icelandic got Laminitis in 2010.  I also used Triple Crown Lite pellets until recently, when I changed to Stabul ! pellets.  Both are similar, but my guys seem to like the Stabul 1 better.  Whatever is easier for you to get is probably fine.  With these guys, everything needs to be less than 10% total ESC & starch.
Ferne Fedeli
No. California

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Lj lj_friedman@... [EquineCushings] <EquineCushings@...> wrote:
 

I posted asking for suggestions for a pelleted feed for a cushings horse . I seem to like what I'm reading about. Purina well solve LS. Any thoughts on this product as I don't have any real Cushings. experience. LJ Friedman November 2014 San Diego

Sent from my iPhone



Re: Cato labs - low numbers, sick horse - second post

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Melinda,

Sounds like a good plan. We haven't really seen any reports of issues with too low an ACTH so I'd go along with my gut on this one if I were you. The only thing I have personally seen in my "one rat study" of one of my geldings, whose perg dose goes to 4mg for the seasonal and back to 3mg the rest of the year, is that he will get a slight "pergolide veil" type response if I leave him at his 4mg perg dose too long. His dates are very specific for rise starting and ending and have been for several years. Might be something to watch out for.

Please let us know how it goes.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team



Re: Help, please..!

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Marianne,

The timing of the first lameness screams PPID being the underlying cause as that would be the prime time for the seasonal rise to be affecting her. Really encourage you to post those xrays and pics of her feet. The blood spots in the soles are evidence of older trauma growing out. Whenever there are hoof issues making sure the trim is scrupulously perfect is the way to go rather than to leave things as they are until later.

Yes, pain can influence insulin/glucose values but in this case it is more likely that the I/G were already elevated and causing the pain.

The 12pmol/L upper normal value for your lab is 20% higher than the ones we see here regularly. Normal readings should fall somewhere in the middle of the range so would want to see something like 4-5pmol/L in a horse that is well controlled. It is good that her ACTH has come down but by the sounds of it, she is still not well controlled enough FOR HER as she is experiencing quite a bit of pain now.

The insulin and glucose values that she had in May were still much too high and showed her to be severely IR and at serious risk for laminitis. Her insulin (142) was 14 times what a healthy insulin(10) should be and her glucose was bordering on diabetic. Again, your lab's ranges on the glucose are higher than has been found to be healthy. Top of the healthy range would be 5mmol and Pauli was at 5.5. This put her in the category of balancing precariously on the edge of a major laminitic episode and only needing the slightest nudge to tip her over that edge. It sounds like the seasonal rise did just that.

The only dose of Prascend (pergolide) that is correct is the one that controls the ACTH. In most horses, this is achievable but you need to get on top of it as soon as possible. It appears that Pauli's dose really needs to be increased to make this happen, which is what your vet agrees with as well.

Her tight muscles and not wanting to be touched are classic for a horse with laminitic pain because she is using her whole body to attempt to keep as much weight off her feet as is possible. This would make her muscles rigid, her attitude crabby and her gait stilted. Good that you are going to have the nerve blocks done.

Hang in there.

Lavinia,Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


Re: adding BP for winter calories

beverly meyer
 

Hi Nancy,
I can't figure out this temperature/calorie table. Can someone
summarize two real world examples for me?
Example #1:
If she's 500 pounds, normally gets 10 pounds of ODTB cubes... (no hay)
And the temp is 40 with a 10 degree wind chill = 30, then add how much
to the feed??
Example #2:
500 pounds/10 pounds cubes but 40 degrees with 20 MPH wind and wet coat?
Jeepers, I used to be a math major but my brain can't figure these DE's
and Mcal into pounds of food!
Any other math geniuses out there?
Beverly 5/14


--
Beverly Meyer, MBA
Clinical and Holistic Nutritionist
www.ondietandhealth.com
Facebook: Beverly Meyer on Diet and Health
Radio: Primal Diet - Modern Health


Re: Help, please..!

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Marianne,

I know it doesn't quite fit BUT my thought is that in this area (North East United States) when we see horses that are suddenly reluctant to be touched or are acting 'off' with no apparent reason why and/or who also are suddenly lame but the exact cause cannot be determined there's a very good chance that they will test positive for one of the tick borne diseases.

I do not know if Ehrlichia is commonly diagnosed in horses in the Netherlands, but I would want to rule it out at this point.  I am not sure if there would be a connection with the glucose/insulin levels either, but perhaps the vet would be able to answer that question.
 
Thanks,
Sherry and Scarlet
PA 2014


From: "jannepauli@... [EquineCushings]"
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] Re: Help, please..!

 
Thank you for helping the thought-process, Sherry!  No, we have not had her checked for that - I will ask our vet tomorrow but I doubt that he will want to do this. The general symptoms donot quite fit. But - one never knows so I will ask him about it. However, would tick-born diseases also have an effect on gluc/insulin running so high?
Marianne
The Netherlands
EC2011




Re: adding BP for winter calories

beverly meyer
 

Thanks Teri,
I can't use Stabul 1 as I have Celiac Disease and can't handle any feed
product with wheat mids. Breathing the dust is as bad as eating it if
you're Celiac!
ODTB has been a lifesaver, for Ginger as well as for me! I was wearing
mask and gloves every feed time before, while searching for gluten free
feed and this group.
Best wishes,
Beverly


--
Beverly Meyer, MBA
Clinical and Holistic Nutritionist
www.ondietandhealth.com
Facebook: Beverly Meyer on Diet and Health
Radio: Primal Diet - Modern Health


Re: Cato labs - low numbers, sick horse - second post

hinecedark@...
 

Thank you, Lavinia

No "spikes", this is progressive through a very mild autumn (mild until this week!).

With no information forthcoming concerning low ACTH level, I believe I will just go ahead and "treat the horse, not the numbers", and first treat the condition I know he has before "reaching" for things we have no reason to suspect. No to low iron in water, iron in hay easily balanced, no iron supplement, all x 13 years. Lyme scarce as hen's teeth in central IN.  If this is ineffective we'll look further into the iron and Lyme issues.

Melinda and Cato

IN 2010

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory3/files/MelindaIndy/


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory3/photos/albums/854694022