Date   

Re: CocoSoya

dnlf@...
 

Hi Sonce,

Welcome to the list. In order to help you better we are going to need some more information from you about your boy. Would you please fill out a case history for Tonka Too on our sister site ECHistory8:

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/files

This enables us to answer your questions more fully.

I am assuming you mean that you are giving Tonka 1.5mg of  Prascend, not 1.5g?

The list's philosophy is DDT/E, which is shorthand for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

DIAGNOSIS: This is thru bloodwork. How was your boy diagnosed? We recommend the ACTH test to check for PPID and insulin/glucose/leptin pulled from a NON-Fasting horse to test for IR. Cornell is the lab of choice as they have been shown to have the most reliable results.

Have you had any repeat bloodwork done to monitor how well his PPID (Cushings) is being controlled? Was he also tested for IR? PPID and IR are two different conditions but many vets confuse the two issues. Please let us know what symptoms he is/was experiencing that led to the diagnosis of PPID. Being a NSH would make it more likely he is IR.

Has Tonka always had trouble maintaining weight or is this a new problem? Adding fat is not recommended as high fat diets can lead to a horse developing IR. At his age his teeth are not as efficient at chewing as they were when he was younger. What condition are they in? Have they been checked in the last year? Even if they are good for his age, the angle has changed. Saliva production also decreases with age as does general gut efficiency.

DIET:  Forage based, mineral balanced, low sugar/starch/fat. In order to achieve this you need to have your hay tested. We recommend sending a cored sample to Equi-Analytical and getting the Trainer #603 test. Once you have the results, we can help you design a supplement that addresses all the excesses and deficiencies in the hay so that your boy is receiving all the building blocks he needs to stay healthy.

In the meanwhile, starting your boy on the emergency diet you were sent when you joined is in the can't hurt/might help category. Soak his hay before feeding, 1hour in cold water or 1/2 hour in hot, and drain the water where he cannot get to it. He should be receiving at least 2% of his desired bodyweight in feed per day. Add the emergency diet items of vit E gelcaps (with oil in them), magnesium oxide, ground flax and iodized table salt. All of these items are available in your local grocery/Walmart store. No pasture, sweet treats, apples, carrots, red salt blocks. Would recommend stopping the L/S (is this the Purina L/S?) as it is not safe for an IR horse.

Rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp is a good way to add safe calories as beet pulp has 1.5 times the calories of an equal amount of hay (by weight). It also adds water to the diet, which is esp important in the colder months when horses tend to drink less.

TRIM: Toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule tightly hugs and supports the internal structures. Post pics of his feet in the ECHistory8 PHOTOS section and the hoof gurus can take a look and make sure his trim is optimal. Boots and pads if there are any laminitis/lameness issues will be more comfortable than shoes.

EXERCISE: Best thing you can do for any horse but only if they are able. Never force a sore horse to move.

Have a read on our educational website for more in-depth information on IR and PPID. Ask any questions as they come, we're here to help.

http://ecirhorse.org/

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


CocoSoya

Sonseeahray Orenstein
 

Hi,


I am new to the group.  I have a 24 year old National Show horse gelding. His name is Tonka Too.  He was diagnosed with Cushings about a year and a half ago.  I give him 1.5gram of Prascend a day.  He lost a lot of weight and struggles to keep it on. His daily diet is L/S feed, hay and hay cubes.  I've been trying to find information to see if CocoSoya oil is ok to give to a cushings horse.  Many boarders where I keep my horse use it for weight gain as well as healthy skin and coat.  My vet doesn't seem to think it would be a problem but he is not an expert with cushings horses.  Does anyone know if Cocosoya is bad for cushings horse?


Many thanks,

Sonce & Tonka Too

Nov 2013

FL


Re: Depressed horse

Nancy C
 

Hi


What you are experiencing is the pergolide veil. Cypro has not been shown to control the disease so you are wise to back to compound. 


Countless members have found help with adjustment to pergolide through the use of adaptogens, particularly a product called APF from Auburn labs or an herb - American Ginseng.  More info here


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/EquineCushings/files/APF


Supporting him with a balance diet will help his body adapt without fighting for minerals not in correct balance.


Can you helps out by letting us know who you are, where you are and when you joined the list?  A link to your case history will help the volunteers makes sure you get the best info for your situation.


Thanks in advance for your help with this.


Nancy Collins, NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org

Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc


---In EquineCushings@..., <nicholaduncan@...> wrote:

I have a PPID pony, but have no concerns about her at present.  Her levels came down nicely from 140 to 40 on 1 tablet of prascend (pergolide here in UK) and her weight is looking good.  we have not IR tested her, as vet does not think necessary at present, and we are addressing her feed by giving 'shape up' by Saracen feeds, which she likes very much - no problem with appetite etc.  19yo pony, who we have had since she was 5.  Spoilt pony!

 

My concern is for a fellow livery.  her 23 yo mare got the traditional fall laminitis last October/November.  She was tested for cushings and came back positive, and she went onto 1 tablet/day.  She was very depressed over the winter (stabled during the night, out during the day).  However she came through the summer well, but when tested more recently, she came back with her levels in the 600s, and owner was advised to go onto 2 tablets a day.  Horse is back in at night now, and is quite depressed, not really eating much hay/haylage and picking at feeds no matter what she gives her.  The tablets are given by hand concealed in either bread or an apple, so she is taking the medicine, but wondered if anyone else has coped with this longer term depression. 


Re: Colic Treatment?

lauramollrich
 

Hi Nancy,


Mr. P is doing better although this wacky weather--in the 90's during the day and upper 40's at night--isn't making us feel too comfortable.


When he had the colic I/my vet had increased his Pergolide by .50 to get him through the rise.  His ACTH had gone from being in the 20's and not showing IR to 35 in August/September.  I had him re-tested again in October and it went down to 30 so the .50 helped.


We are going to re-test the end of November for ACTH/Glucose/Insulin/Leptin.  Hopefully he can go back down on the Pergolide.


He gets 3 tbsps. of Iodized salt daily, has a salt block on his wall (which he licks like a kid with a lollipop) and I keep his water buckets immaculate.  He drinks his water so that's one good thing.


I think I am going to go ahead and buy this product just to have it on hand...just in case.  But it still warrants an immediate phone call to the vet.


Laura

Laguna Beach, CA

1/2012 

---In equinecushings@..., <lauramollrich@...> wrote:


Re: Tis the Season Sale

suebowie@ymail.com
 


Hello:  I am grateful that you are offering this special again this year.  I wanted to take the NRC Plus course
last year but it didn't work out, so this year, I am taking advantage of the two for one and a friend and I
are both doing the course.  I hope I filled out the purchase form properly, as I only sent my friend's
email address.  Hope that is enough, and looking forward to the course... Thanks Sue Bowie.
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 12:45 PM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Tis the Season Sale

 

All long and short courses on www.drkellon.com are on sale, 2 for the price of 1. You can take two of the same and gift one, or take any two for yourself. Courses may be taken at time of your choosing.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001



Re: Abscess vs Laminitis

dnlf@...
 

Hi Catherine,

Thanks for getting all the photos and xrays up, they help a lot.

There seems to have been quite a bit of loss of sole depth from the July xrays to the September ones. The heels have been lowered but it appears it was done thru lowering of the entire hoof capsule. The toes have not been backed but have been rasped flat so the hoof capsule appears to have a normal shape to it. These are issue that we see commonly.

As Nancy mentioned, there appears to be a steeper angle of growth coming in under the coronet band that diverges as it grows down. This confirms the presence of a laminar wedge and that the toes are too long. The excess toe length is causing the breakover to be much further forward than where it should be and strains the laminar connections with each step that Melada takes.

The coffin bone angles are now fairly ground parallel. This means that when Melada weights her feet when moving, the CB's actually tip into a negative plane orientation which places excessive strain on the tendons and ligaments and causes a broken back pastern axis to occur.

I can get some mark-ups up for you tomorrow, if you would like.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team


 



Re: Abscess vs Laminitis

Nancy C
 

 Hi Catherine


I removed the rads from Cindy's folder.  Good job on getting things up in the right place!


I apologize in advance, my computer has crashed and stilt trying to work out what, if anything I can left, including in back up.  


Was able to see your pics and rads.  Have you asked for or gotten mark up?  In my limited experience as an owner who trims her own foundered horse, you have distal descent as described in the link I sent earlier. It looks like she has a lot off foot but the rads show she is sitting inappropriately low in the hoof capsule, thus the thin sole and little ground clearance.  That alone could cure her discomfort. 


It's going to take some time and solid growth to get her back into place with regular trims and touchup in between.   Look under the hair line and I think you will see evidence of the new tighter growth coming in.  Keeping the toe/break over back to that new angle will be needed. The goal is to keep the hoof rings - i.e. new  growth - coming in at an even level. 


Besides the Ramey distal decent article, see more about physiological trimming at www.ecirgroup.org.


So glad the pergolide and getting the ACTH under control is working. Managing the trigger(s) is critical to successful rehab.  So is the trim.


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org

Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc


---In EquineCushings@..., <fischerc@...> wrote:


Thanks.. 


Catherine

Idaho 2010


http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/echistory7/photos/albums/53259580



http://groups. yahoo.com/ neo/groups/ echistory7/ files/Cindy% 20ID





Re: Depressed horse

drenafer@...
 

Yes.  I too have 22yr old cushings horse who remained depressed and off feed for at least 4 months.  He would not eat concealed in treats so began melting them and hiding in feed.  We decided to take off and have put on Cyproheptadine.  ACTH was 101 in August so doubled dose at 10mg 2x a day.  He is not sick on this, but am worried that in is not controlling problem as well as pergolide.  I will have ACTH tested again soon.  Tried to ask Dr.  Kellon, but was out of town, read that Cypro loses effectiveness over time.  Was considering compounded pergolide to see if would have same effects, but don't want to see horse so depressed what quality of life?


Re: Xrays go?

Nancy C
 

Yes, Nancy that is correct.  The photos section of ECH7 where your Case History is. 


Nancy C in NH
ECIR Group Moderator 2003

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot.
www.ECIRhorse.org

Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup

Support the ECIR Group while you shop. It's easy.  

http://www.iGive.com/EquineCushingsandInsulinResistanceGroupInc



Xrays go?

 

I should have time later today to post Jazzi's x-rays.  I believe they should go in the photo section?  Want to be sure I get it right.  Thank you!

Nancy and Jazzi

San Diego County

March 2013

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/echistory7/files/Nancy%20Reed/


Re: Colic Treatment?

Nancy C
 

Hi Laura and all -


I'm sorry to hear about P and the other horses having issues.  There are many reasons why colic could happen, especially this time of year.  


Lauraa, I'd be curious to know if you continued the  3.5 mg of per go.  Also was his water consumption different?


Here's an article by Dr Kellon about  colic that my help.  Nothing replaces adequate salt intake and water consumption, IMO.


http://equine.uckele.com/Resources-Articles/cat/drkellon/post/WinterColicDrKellon/


Nancy C in NH

ECIR Group Moderator

February 2003



---In equinecushings@..., <lauramollrich@...> wrote:


Re: Question when to test

Lorna Cane
 

 

Hi Christina,


 You joined in 2003.

Our sister list,ECHorsekeeping can be visited for general horse topics,as opposed to topics here ,which are specific to Cushings and Insulin Resistance.
It is here:



Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup


> A quick little bio...Ive been a member ...thinking on it...probably since around 98


Re: advice for a very bloated, scouring pony.

Mandy Woods
 


Re: Question when to test

equinedriven@...
 

Hi folks...
 
Apologies...its been quite some time since I followed or posted to the group...
 
A quick little bio...Ive been a member ...thinking on it...probably since around 98 when I was working for Anne 'Mimi' Thorington. She used to sponsor Lisa Singers morgan team but I believe since I moved down here to Chincoteague (Im actually on the mainland about 3 miles from the causeway to the island(s)) Lisa is breeding & training her own morgans. I spent 15 years up in Chester Co PA working for Mike Moran, EE Weymouth, Mimi & Walnut Green. Im sort of a go natural girl. Feet...general horse keeping and training. I am a level 3 Parelli student with my adopted Trakhener Adlige. Hes 20 going 21...and I have to keep an eye on him as hes aging...we're getting a bit porky with less work. I work entirely too much balancing a full time job...a part time job...plus at the moment (cant wait for cold weather so I can back this down) 7 horses in training. So life is insanely busy...hence why I get digests instead of individual emails. Im a horse addict and have to support my addiction. LOL.
 
I guess my proudest moment was when Hard Spun emerged as a top 3 yr old contender. I rubbed his mother for her entire career while working for Mike. Prior to landing in chester county I worked in the standardbred industry as a grand circuit groom. Working for Joe Holloway taught me so much about horses and soundness...got to travel all over the country and get paid for it...and I didn't even have to sign up and take orders. LOL. I relocated down this way to be closer to my aging parents...as they need help...being the only child...I made myself available. Miss the full time horse work...have to get my 'fix' part time and work a normal job for my cake. Horses are at the moment my icing.
 
I also write for some publications...working on a book with a publisher interested...when it gets a bit colder Ill probably retrain my attentions to writing. Its been crazy busy since may and Im ready to dig in for the cold months and take a bit of me & work on book time. I mostly cover medical, management & training subjects for various paper & web publications. When I can squeeze it in I teach for our local 4H groups & pony clubs.. mostly medical & anatomy. I do a bit of local judging as well.
 
My cushings horse experiences come from several jobs. I find dealing with the disease incredibly complicated ...emotional and full of trials...full of rewards too when you get on the right track. Each case is different and it takes some real sleuthing to settle on a treatment regime that works for each individual animal. Its a challenge....its heartbreak when you bury one. A real roller coaster ride. I say at the start of the email...thankfully I am not dealing with one at the moment. I dont mind the challenge or expense... however that roller coaster ride gets tiresome when youre on it for extended periods of time. We do it for the love of our horses.
 
For the horse always
 
Christina Brown ((26) Christina Brown )
New Church VA


Re: advice for a very bloated, scouring pony.

Mandy Woods
 

Good morning Fleur,
 
Welcome to the list.  Before any of the volunteers can respond we need to know more about this pony.  You say she has many Cushings symptoms.  Tell us what they are.  Many times owners/vets confuse PPID with IR.   Scours can be caused by other things besides worms.  Not all worms/larvae show up on fecal tests.   What we need you to do is to join ECH8 which is our medical file.   Please  fill out the questionnaire because it really paints a larger picture of the condition of this pony and then we can help you faster.  Details.  We need all the little details.
 
The list philosophy is DDT/E.  DIAGNOSIS,  DIET,  TRIM  and EXERCISE.
 
To confirm Cushings,  you need an ACTH test.  This requires special handling.  Please read the Blood testing file.  To see if she’s  IR,  you need to pull blood for Insulin/Glucose and Leptin on a NON fasting pony.  Feed her soaked drained grass hay the night before and the day of the blood pull.  Please send the samples to Cornell.    Cushings is treated with pergolide.   IR is managed by Diet.
 
DIET is low sugar/starch forage with minerals balanced to its assay.   IF this pony was in my barn,  I would pull her off pasture and feed her soaked grass hay and drain the water where she cant get to it.  Not only does this reduce sugar up to 30% it cleans the hay.   Soak the hay for one hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot.  She needs the Temporary EmergencyDIET minerals which are Vitamin E,  loose iodized table salt,  magnesium  and freshly ground flax.  You can purchase all of these at Walmart.   Get a hanging scale in the sports department so you can weigh her hay.   She should not have any pasture,  grain,  red salt blocks or mineral mix.  No commercial bagged feed for now.     Build a dry lot out of step in posts or T posts using electric tape.  You can make it inside the pasture where there is no grass.  The purpose of this DIET is to quickly and safely remove sugars from her diet and to start the basic diet that will be built for her.    She will have a custom mix designed from  her hay analysis.   Has the owner ever tested their hay?   Have a read at www.equi-analytical.com  at the Trainer # 603.   This is the test most of us use to see what is in the hay we actually feed.   Then minerals are added to balance the deficiencies.  
 
TRIM is a balanced foot.   Boots and pads if needed.   You say no founder ~  that’s great news!  
 
EXERCISE **ONLY ** if she’s able.  Hand walking would be great if she is willing.   5 minutes would be a good start.
 
Your question: Could Cushings cause bloat?   Probably not.  
 
Fleur,  we really need more information.   Please start a journal on her and take photos too.   Here’s a link on how to take  good foot photos.   There are lots of people here to help you.  When you join ECH8 – please include a link to her Case History.  And we need you to sign with your name and general location. 
 
Lots to do but its doable!   We’ll help.
 
Mandy in VA
ECIR Primary Response
OCT 2003
 


advice for a very bloated, scouring pony.

spottedgudgeon@...
 

I am looking for help for a client's pony who exhibits many symptoms  of cushings but has the added discomfort of a hugely bloated belly and is scouring badly. A vet has prescribed antibiotics which I would think has worsened the condition and also advised worming. An egg count was done and is negative for worms. Her hooves are in great condition, no founder. Can cushings cause this severe boating /digestive upset? Pony is 12 years old. 

Thanks

Fleur.


Re: Question when to test

Donna Powell
 

Whoo hooo!  Yahoo is finally working!  Thank you for your reply.  It clears up alot of questions I had about when to test.  

 

So, if I have this right...say I test in January (we do not have cold winters here) and his ACTH level came back high, then likely he needs dosing year round?  And further, that the dosage more than likely would increase come the August thru December uptick?  Or is it September thru December?

 

Donna Powell

Southern Coast of South Carolina

NRCPlus0213 NAT0413


Re: Colic Treatment?

Sarah Kay <hollytreesarah@...>
 

Jackie

I don't know about things that might help reduce the colic occurrences, but Suffolk is quite deficient in selenium. See this link to the NERC's map of soil selenium levels in England and Wales: http://www.bgs.ac.uk/nercsoilportal/maps.html Anything below 0.5mg/kg selenium in soil is likely to produce selenium-deficient forage, so basically the dark blue and the mid blue areas are deficient. Turquoise/green/yellow are likely to be adequate.


So on the basis of that, I would definitely be looking to feed a balancer or vit/min supplement that added around 1mg/day of selenium/500kg horse (NRC's recommended minimum daily intake is that, and there are suggestions that 2 or 3mg may be more appropriate, but certainly no higher).

I would be looking for one that contained around 1mg of selenium/day in the form of selenium yeast (as it's known to be more bioavailable than inorganic selenium, known as sodium selenite). I wouldn't use one with only inorganic selenium, as I found that with my gang of ponies with muscle disease, their muscle enzyme levels did not sustain a reduction when on inorganic selenium for 10 months, whereas on organic selenium (selenium yeast) the enzyme levels reduced after 4 to 5 months.

Thunderbrook base mix provides around 0.57mg Se/day/500kg horse in the form of selenium yeast. So it's the right form of selenium, but quite a low amount.
TopSpec only use inorganic selenium, so I wouldn't use that one.
Simple System only provide around 0.02mg Se a day, and I'm afraid I can't remember which sort, but it's way too low an amount to be right for a selenium-deficient area.

The one I would use without hesitation is either Blue Chip Original or Blue Chip Lite. They provide 1.8mg Se/day/500kg horse (half is as selenium yeast, and half is organic). I'd also use Dengie Alfa A balancer which provides 1mg selenium as selenium yeast. If I was to go for one of the newer balancers, it'd be Pro Hoof (but I've never tried it - I just like the look of the analysis for a selenium-deficient area). I am not convinced by those that provide a very elevated level of zinc and copper, as I've not been able to find any reference by NRC to the value of this, and nor have I found any scientific papers to support it...... despite asking people who choose to use that type of balancer.

You say she stands with her back leg stretched out on tip toe. Sounds a bit odd? Do you mean just one back leg, or both? Is it like she is posturing to wee?

What are "colic lines"? I've never heard that expression.

Sarah



Hi All,
I would be really interested in colic solutions too as my mare 22, diagnosed 13 months ago with PPID on 1 tablet of pergolide a day, she had been doing so well, laminitis sorted, rotation of both pedal bones vastly improved but since August has had colic with colic lines twice but most days has a sore tummy sometimes exercise sorts it out she stands with her back leg stretched out on tip toe, I am changing things one thing at a time and thought I found the answer today- activated charcoal BUT no it absorbs medications like pergolide !!!! I haven't added my case history yet as its on the computer and I use my phone most of the time. I would be interested in what people think of www.thunderbrook.co.uk and www.simplesystem.co.uk as I am beginning to think her feed doesn't suit her. I am on www.topspec.co.uk at present, topchop lite, antilam balancer, and cool and condition cubes as she lost condition, she looks great on this but the colicky thing is really causing me worries. I hav
e her on gastriaid incase of ulcers and a pro and pre biotic. And coconut oil to soothe if ulcers. Any thoughts very welcome. I am in the UK so things are quite different feed wise reading the posts.
Thankyou
Jackie and Mara
Suffolk UK
OCTOBER 2013


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Re: New Comfy Boot with high density pad

Lorna Cane
 

 

Please sign your posts , adding location and year you joined us.
You joined in 2003.


Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*
http://www.ecirhorse.com/images/stories/Success_Story_3_-Ollies_Story__updated.pdf


https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup





>Anyway...again..I hope by sharing this info that it helps your horses.


Re: Purina Enhance Plus - worth a try for my Paso?

sally.stork
 

Yes, I have a mare that at times gets too thin---I like Triple Crown also and added to the LITE, 1 pound a day of the TC30 balancer---the higher  protein really put on nice muscle--it is low carb and low fat. I then switched to JUST 1 pound a day of the TC30 and still plenty of hay and also 2 pounds of the TC safe starch chopped hay(tested low carb) and  she is looking  great----I can not remember the ppm of iron in TC30, BUT feeding only one pound so iron amt is 1/2 of the label(ppm is per kilogram or about 2 pounds), so if its 700ppm, she is only getting 350mg iron--very low!!!

So...she added muscle, my iron amt is low. Bermuda not fed much here in Maryland but I think its low in protein so TC30 might help that,Sally.

Elkton Md. member since 2009

---In EquineCushings@..., <spiral1957@...> wrote:

 >Salsa tells everyone I'm trying to kill him when I use beet pulp- haha! 

Ha!  I know just what you mean Tracy!  My boys wanted nothing to do with beet pulp!  But they LOVE moistened ODTB's  (Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance) cubes! They are tested low sugar starch Timothy Hay cubes with minerals balanced to Dr. K's recommendations. If you pour warm water on them, and let them sit for 10 minutes or more to fluff them (don't pour off any water as you'll lose the balancing minerals) the supplements stick wonderfully to them.  I also use them in NoseIt toys as treats.  My boys LOVE them!!  Any place that carries Triple Crown products can also get the ODTB's.  You can also use them as a complete balanced feed or a safe (low s/s) source for additional calories to your balanced diet.

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC Primary Response
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory4/files/maggie%20in%20virginia/

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