Date   

Booting problem - pain at the back of the hoof?

 

Cayuse is out of Cloud boots at the moment. I watched her weight shifting her fores for the past several days and suspect she has pain at the back of the hoof - she was swaying and shifting and alternately raising her heels. Yesterday she took matters in hand and twisted her Cloud boots (which she has been wearing for more than 30 days not) 90 degrees three separate times within a few hours. I really couldn't do much but take them off and make sure she was standing in deeps shavings.

This morning I duct taped 3/8 inch industrial felt pads on both fronts. This is stop gap at best. I'm at my wits end on a booting solution that will offer relief at the fetlocks and still give me options to pad. If there's enough room for pads, apparently there's enough room for her to twist the boots. Her measurements allow that, as her hooves are as wide as they are long.

Ideas? Easyboot Fury's use only ¼ inch pads, which is basically no pad at all.

BTW, I gave her the first 6 mg dose of estradiol today.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Recommendations on starting Metformin and Prascend

Lisa <lavoiestuff@...>
 

Hi Sherry

Thank you 

Correct no repeat blood work as I have had a difficult time with my vet having the tests when I requested them last week (TRH stim test for ACTH and insulin level).  As mentioned I have requested just insulin glucose level but not hear back.
Correct, currently not on metformin.  
Feed amount was my understanding the cubes ratio to hay was less. (3 to 4 ratio)?  She was not gaining weight, was maintaining but has begun losing. She is at 1009 tape weight.
Current trim does not look like CH photos, has less toe and lower heal.
I will work on getting current pictures before farrier visit. Thank you for the suggestions on taking photos and what limited photos I can submit right now.
I am working on getting bloodwork insulin and glucose. That has been my goal but has not been easy.
--
Lisa M Lavoie
May 2022, Anderson CA

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lisa%20and%20Jamie
Jamie's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275057


Re: ACTH Results seem too high - could the blood have been compromised?

Lisa Toms
 

I forgot to mention @Dr Kellon, no this wasn't a fasting sample.
--
- Lisa & Bonnie
August 2012, Cape Town, South Africa 
Bonnie Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lisa%20and%20Bonnie 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=21740


Re: Jack update - insulin down from 170 to 25 on Metformin!

Sherry Morse
 

I wouldn't take a chance with that ESC number on the timothy unless you soaked it and even then it might be too much.




Re: ACTH Results seem too high - could the blood have been compromised?

Lisa Toms
 

Thanks for the really quick replies.

I will update her case history asap with her latest details and start reading up on the pergolide (and if I remember correctly, the herbs that help with the veil).  I guess my denial is officially over ;-) 

Thanks once again!



--
- Lisa & Bonnie
August 2012, Cape Town, South Africa 
Bonnie Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lisa%20and%20Bonnie 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=21740


Re: Jack update - insulin down from 170 to 25 on Metformin!

Hilary McGregor
 

Sherry, I linked both hay test analyses in my previous post: timothy to teff 

--
Hilary and Amika
Prince George, BC, Canada
Joined July 2019
NRC+ proficient grad January 2022

Amika's Case History Folder
Amika's Photos Folder

Jack's Case History
Jack's Photos Folder


Re: ACTH Results seem too high - could the blood have been compromised?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

In the southern hemisphere, the seasonal rise is 6 months after in the northern hemisphere so yes, it correlates to spring in the northern hemisphere.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: ACTH Results seem too high - could the blood have been compromised?

 
Edited

I was wondering when the earlier sample was done because they should just be coming out of their rise now, I would think.  It would make sense that the more recent test results are lower.  I don’t see either of these tests in the case history and there could be any number of other differences between the testing circumstances if there wasn’t a focus on consistency.

I did find the earlier text and it was about a month ago.  Also reread all the posts here and realize there is reason to suspect handling error.  Regardless, I agree with everyone else that she needs pergolide.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Recommendations on starting Metformin and Prascend

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Lisa,

To be clear:
  • No repeat bloodwork done yet
  • Currently not on Metformin
  • Being fed 12lbs of cubes per day 
    • If that's the only thing she's being fed she should be eating 15.4lbs a day - is there a reason you're feeding her so much less?  Was she gaining weight on the correct amount for her weight?  If there's no reason that she's not on the correct amount for her weight I would suggest bumping her up the 3.4 pounds and see if that makes a difference with her trying to eat shavings.
  • If current trim looks like the x-rays from April and pictures posted in May her toes are still too long and need to be brought back.  
    • Ideally to get mark-ups you would want to post pre-trim pictures at least a week in advance and ask Lavinia for assistance. That would give her enough time to get you mark-ups before the farrier arrives.  Even just posting dorsal and side views if you can't pick up her feet to do the sole shots would be helpful.
      • IF she can't stand up you can take pictures of her feet with her laying down, this may be the best option for sole shots if you want to try for them at this point.
    • Taking pictures post trim for an evaluation is only going to work if you're going to fix what needs to be done right away.  Waiting another 4 weeks means the foot will have grown more and the mark-ups will not be helpful at all.
Were this my horse I'd want to get bloodwork done now for insulin and glucose at the very least and then make a decision on starting Metformin based on that.  I'd also look at getting the TRH test done to see if she is in fact early PPID as that could also be contributing to the rise in insulin and you want to get the insulin number down so that is out of the equation as being a reason for foot soreness.




Re: ACTH Results seem too high - could the blood have been compromised?

Maxine McArthur
 

Dr Kellon, do you mean that SA horses experience a seasonal rise at the opposite end of the year? That is, in the vernal equinox? In the Southern Hemisphere that would be September/October. 

Or did you mean the SA rise is in the Southern Hemisphere autumn also (March/April), which time of the calendar year correlates to spring in the northern hemisphere? 



--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Recommendations on starting Metformin and Prascend

Lisa <lavoiestuff@...>
 

Kirsten

Thank you

I have requested just the insulin but have not gotten a return call.  I have tried to do everything in the proper time/schedule but in my area we deal with a huge vet shortage, mobile vets and knowledge of what I am dealing with.
The vet has prescribed the metformin for me to start her but was hoping to have some baseline before hand.  In the meantime Jamie continues to be uncomfortable. 
Yes, the trim pictures in my CH was at the start of Jamies issues and she was unable to be trimmed at her scheduled trim appointment due to the severity of her laminitis. So she was long when she did get trimmed and farrier did not want to do too much to completely put her down.  Since those pictures she has been done and is on a 4 week schedule.  I do not have assistance in getting photos taken and on 6/23 when farrier comes to do her I am going to have him help in getting the photos taken.
As I mentioned to Sherry (group member that's been assisting as well ) that I have great confidence in my farrier as he is who works for the vets in the area as well as Sacramento CA locations.  But I am not saying he can't be missing something.
With all this being said and the current situation with the vet and bloodwork I am just wonder if I am safe to just start Jamie on metformin and pray I see an improvement?
--
Lisa M Lavoie
May 2022, Anderson CA

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lisa%20and%20Jamie
Jamie's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275057


Re: Recommendations on starting Metformin and Prascend

Lisa <lavoiestuff@...>
 

Sherry
Thank you for your reply.
She has not been on prascend since the very first dose was given and then recommended to take her off as her bloodwork was not indicative of PPID.  It was recommended by my vet if she did not improve after farrier work 4/22/22. 
But she had not been on an approved IR diet until 5/16/22 at which time I had gotten my CH properly inputted to the group and you kindly responded the next day with hopes I would see improvements with her comfort level as she was on the TC Timothy balance cubes.  It was then recommended once she was on the diet for 3 weeks to retest her insulin and have TRH stim test for her ACTH as she may well be early PPID. 
And as my request for recommendations on metformin and prascend was because I could not get the testing done with the vet  and have now requested just an insulin & glucose test but have not gotten a return call.  In the mean time Jamie has still not improved as far as her discomfort level so at this point I am wanting to just start her on metformin to see if there are any changes in her pain/discomfort.

The X-rays in my CH are less than 2 months old so not sure if you are wanting more current X-rays?  I do not have current trim pictures, but she is on a 4 week trim schedule and I do not have someone available to help me get the required photos.  My farrier is the farrier used by all the vets in our area as well as Sacramento CA area so I have confidence in him. Not to say he can't be missing something.  Jamie is due to be trimmed again on June 23 so I was going to have my farrier assist with the photo's at that time.
I do have photos (from 4/22/22 trim) in my CH but was unable to get complete photos of the right fore because of her inability to stay standing.

So at this point I am not sure what to do or direction to go.  And at this point seems like more issues are developing with Jamie....she finishes her breakfast and immediate goes to eating her shavings.  She is getting 12 lbs TC cubes split into 3 feedings per day with necessary added supplements (flat, vit E, salt) in the am and pm feeding.
--
Lisa M Lavoie
May 2022, Anderson CA

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lisa%20and%20Jamie
Jamie's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=275057


Re: ACTH Results seem too high - could the blood have been compromised?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

P.S. Your seasonal increase is Spring, not Autumn.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: ACTH Results seem too high - could the blood have been compromised?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Was this a fasting sample? Fasting will lower both insulin and ACTH. Both tests are clearly abnormal. You want to aim for the normal levels.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Goodbye Millionairess

Donna Coughlin
 

She was so blessed to find you, and vice-versa. She will remain with you forever; I've lost three during my adult life, and I say goodnight to all three (and many dogs and some people, too!) as I walk back from barn to house each night. I know they're with me, and I'm sure many here feel the same. As the pain of everyday loss ebbs, the feeling of gratefulness grows. It's such an honor to share their lives--and you and Millionairess certainly had an extraordinary one! Much love from my barn to yours.

--
Donna Coughlin, Robin Goodfellow and Ariel Max; Duke (5/21) and Obi (5/17) over the Rainbow Bridge

CT 2009

 

 


Re: Superman's weight

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

You didn't mention how much hay he is getting.

How old is he? You could gradually take him up to 10 lbs/day of the cubes.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: ACTH Results seem too high - could the blood have been compromised?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Lisa,

Based on the test results Bonnie is PPID.  Were she mine I would be getting her on medication sooner rather than later to try to avoid any other detrimental effects on her health.  Can you update her CH with current diet and weight information when you have a moment?  It would really help us help you.




Re: ACTH Results seem too high - could the blood have been compromised?

Lisa Toms
 

Hi everyone,

I got a new test done, by a different vet clinic and the results are 70.30 pg/ml, half of the original results which were 157 pg/ml.  Does this mean that Bonnie is not PPID?  or is it normal for the range to vary so much between tests?  I am not too sure what to do from here... treat with pergolide to get it to a lower range of +- 40 pg/ml or wait for symptoms to show, or rather wait out the autumnal seasonal increase and test again later in the year?

The lab mentioned the following:
The endogenous ACTH was elevated into a range which could be consistent with PPID provided that there are supportive clinical symptoms and other lab results. It has been shown recently that SA horses also experience the autumnal seasonal increase in ACTH but this result exceeds that peak. The insulin concentration was not elevated and basalcortisol is difficult to interpret on a random sample

Test Results:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lisa%20and%20Bonnie/Bonnie%20ACTH%20Test%20Results%2020220518-.pdf

--
- Lisa & Bonnie
August 2012, Cape Town, South Africa 
Bonnie Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lisa%20and%20Bonnie 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=21740


Re: Superman's weight

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Annette,

Without a case history for Superman we can't answer the feed question but as a rule nothing Purina makes is low enough in ESC or Starch for an IR or PPID horse.  Just because it keeps getting mentioned as a way to put weight on doesn't mean it's healthy or safe.




Re: IR and Ulcers

Mialisa@...
 

Hi Barbara,
I have gone the same route that most everyone has mentioned here with Joshua. It is still an ongoing issue. A few years ago a farrier came by and suggested it may be hindgut issues and recommended Gut Health by Basic Equine as it is encapsulated and will get to the hind gut to help heal any issues. IT WORKED! BUT every time I de-worm Joshua the issue flares again and we start over. Joshua just has a very delicate system. I try so hard to keep his system balanced. Hence I feed 4 times a day and have for many years now to try to keep flare ups to a minimum. I personally think his issue contributes to him not being able to keep weight on. I have also used Slippery Elm Bark powder and this helps as well, but I try not to use it continually as it lines the stomach and slows the absorption of their vitamins and minerals which we want them to get.
I hope this info helps.

--
Rene` in WI 2021
CaseHistory@ECIR.groups.io | Album
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Isaac
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rene%60%20and%20Joshua