Re: need recommendations safe sweeteners/food additives


Are sugar free sweeteners, like Splenda and Stevia safe for laminitic horses?

Starting Mov-Ease--Best way to Give It?

lauramollrich <lmollrich@...>

I purchased Mov-Ease and would like to know the best way to serve it up for Pabatsa? Should I sprinkle it in with his BP or ODBTC or is there another way to do it? I definitely want to make sure he is getting the full benefit of it.

Laura Mollrich
Laguna Beach, CA

Bonnies IR

Lisa Toms

Hi all,

Please can you help me with a few questions.

I am getting the vet out tomorrow to do blood tests for Bonnie's IR. Just to confirm... it's the Insulin Baseline and Glucose Blood tests that he must do? If my vet thinks the labs here can do the test is that ok or should I insist on Cornell?

Dr Kellon mentioned getting her ovaries checked, would the vet know what to check for? (stupid question, but you never know ;-) ) - Should I do it now or wait?

I am thinking of starting Bonnie on Devils claw tomorrow, she is getting worse after her balancing trim, which is totally expected but I think she needs some pain relief... before the trim she was hobbling along but now she is taking a few seconds before she attempts each step and her back legs seem to shake with each new step and she is lifting each leg every few seconds to relieve the pressure and rocks her body back and forth every now and again. Should I give it? How much should I give her and over how long should I introduce it?

I have stopped putting lucerne chaff into Bonnie's SB to make her eat her vitamins and minerals, but she then stopped eating her SB, So I added 2 teaspoons of carrot baby food... is this ok? It was on the list of "fussy eaters".

Should I be feeding extra magnesium during this chronic stage of her laminitis? She is getting 5gm's magnesium mixed with the rest of her mineral mix presecribed for her.

Sorry about all the questions... but I thought I would rather ask jusst in case.

Thanks a ton!

Lisa & Bonnie | SA | June 2012

Re: Standlee timothy pellet test results


Thanks Carol for checking my math. I reversed the conversion and multiplied instead of divided by 2.2. It is as you write (1710 mg/kg X 1 kg/2.2 lbs = 777 mg/lb). Sheesh!! I need to post conversion tables on the wall beside my desk!

Middle TN
Sept 2007

--- In EquineCushings@..., "clbroyles55" <clbroyles55@...> wrote:

Your math is not correct. 1710 ppm would be about 777 mg per pound.

Re: Bounding Digitals in all four - Help


A trim that is too harsh (ie too much hoof removed) or that changes the angles could give a bounding pulse. Also bruised soles from walking on stony ground or from removing too much wall so that the horse walks on the sole (ie Strasser trim), and trush. Basically anything "going on" in the feet could cause a strong digital pulse, not just laminitis.

My gelding also has stronger pulses than I would like him to have. And while he is not lame, it does concern me. Thing is, he's not allowed any grass, is on a balanced diet and 3 mg prascend, and exercised for 1 h every day. I trim him often myself to avoid major changes in wallheight/angles. So I'm not sure what to do or think about it. He perhaps has a little deep grooves around his frog so he might have a bit of trush. He has to wear boots in his paddock as sadly he has dug up a lot of the sharp large stones in the base layer by rolling and galloping around, so his feet don't get as much air as I think they should (only when stabled at night).

My farrier's view is that horses who once have had laminitis will continue to have a slightly stronger pulse and that it's nothing to worry about as long as they don't go lame. But I'm not sure I dare to trust that.

March 2011


Did the vets suggest any reasons why a horse would have bounding pulses x4 besides laminitis?

It was always my understanding that significant strong pedal pulses (ongoing, not occasional) suggested inflammation, and that there are not too many other causes of inflammation in the foot besides laminitis--that is, that would affect all four feet at the same time.

Re: Rio - New Hay Analysis, / CORRECTION

Lorna <briars@...>

Ok,Tina,let's try this again.

Remember,these are just numbers from a SS.They tell us what Rio's hay is deficient in,and give us the needed ratios of minerals to each other.
But the details specific to him ( extra needs) need to be examined.
There will be other items you want to add (flax,for example.Maybe more E , and so on)
The devil is in the details.

These are the correct basic requirements,as they stand now:

9.5 g P
1.6 g Mg

1385 mg Zn
491 mg Cu

2000 IU Vit E

5 mg I
2.0 mg Se

Hopefully an balancing guru( as you can see I am not) will have time to fine tune for you.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*

Re: Rio - New Hay Analysis, / CORRECTION

Lorna <briars@...>

Hi Tina,

I have absolutely no business doing this,and I hope it isn't worse than doing nothing at all.

Please disregard previous numbers posted.Major cockup on my part.

Stand by.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*

Re: New Member


Hi Ariane,
it's very easy to get your hay tested when you're in France. You can just ship it over to Germany for example(shipping isn't really expensive at that weight, the LUFA in Germany only needs 500g iirc).

Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011

--- In EquineCushings@..., "ariane78980" <ariane78980@...> wrote:
Especially because it is difficult to know where to perform some of the tests that I can see in this group (it is a bit tricky to adapt a diet when you cannot test your hay for example, so I am doing that only based on my pony's shape).

Re: New Member

Lorna <briars@...>

Hi Ariane,

Not Nancy, but go here and scroll down to the 3rd entry.
That should work.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*

Re: New Member


Hello Nancy!

Thank you very much for your answer! It looks like the link is not working though... Can you send it back?

I am really impressed by the quantity of information I can read in this group! Thank you so much!

Have a nice day!


Re: New Member


Hello Andrea,

Thanks a lot for these links, there's plenty of useful information in here! Especially because it is difficult to know where to perform some of the tests that I can see in this group (it is a bit tricky to adapt a diet when you cannot test your hay for example, so I am doing that only based on my pony's shape).
I will share that as much as possible! If you need help for translation let me know...

Have a nice day!


Re: New Member


Hello Andrea,

I'm in Italy and wanted to compliment you on your wonderful website It's really good to have info that can be used by Europeans.

Holli Bacchini

--- In EquineCushings@..., "andrealefley" <androbjon@...> wrote:

Hello Ariane

Your English is excellent - so much better than my French! I've lived in France for 6 years, and nearly lost a horse to laminitis because my local vets and farriers knew so little, so I have some understanding of your situation. You have done really well with Bambi.

You will get lots of great information from this group. I hope it's ok for me to let you know that I am building up information in French on my website:

and also have some information in English that is specific to France - perhaps not so useful for you in Belgium but it may help:

You can send blood to Liphook in the UK for ACTH and insulin testing - the full protocol is in English and French:

France Jan 2010

What Iron Blood Result is Considered High?

lauramollrich <lmollrich@...>

Pabatsa's last Cornell results including Iron were 156. Is that considered high?

Laura Mollrich
Laguna Beach, CA

Re: Hoof Rings from Change in Angles?

lauramollrich <lmollrich@...>

--- In EquineCushings@..., "drkellon" <drkellon@...> wrote:

I can't get in to see the hooves right now, but his blood work looks great. I would put him back on oats.
When I uploaded a link of photos, they went directly into the photos section. Do I not have the right x-ray link on my signature?

When Pabatsa's blood was drawn on 6/12, I had stopped giving him the oats for a week. Would that have dropped the results? If I add them back in will it raise his results?

Yesterday (Friday 6/15) one of my vets came out to take a check on what I thought was some scratches. Luckily not anything serious. She told me she thought Pabatsa looked worse that she had ever seen him--lack of muscle on topline/hips, etc.

She told me she thought Pabatsa had a SLIGHT crest and couldn't believe I was giving him oats. She said that the beet pulp was fine but he should be on soy for protein and Timothy/Alfalfa pellets, as well as some soy. She told me why would I give him sugar from the oats when I am trying to avoid it. I tried to explaing that I only give him BP/oats within the "hour window" of an at least 20-minute workout of trot/canter work. He has been getting quite sweaty during his arena workouts at least 5x/weeks. I do have to tell you that she prefers horses on the meaty side. There is a Friesian 4 doors down from Pabatsa that everyone says is fat, in fact I think he has a crest.

What do you have to say about her comments? Now I don't know what to think about any of this. I am going to post a photo I took of Pabatsa's neck from just a couple of days ago on 6/14. Can a crest appear overnight? I am so confused right now.

Laura Mollrich
Laguna Beach, CA

Re: Rio - New Hay Analysis, Supplements and Bloodwork

Lorna <briars@...>

Hi Tina,

I have absolutely no business doing this,and I hope it isn't worse than doing nothing at all.

I just stole some time to take a cursory look at your hay,'cause I know you need to get started on the balancing.

But there are other factors than just numbers on a spreadsheet,and the details need to be worked out.

So I hope someone will have time to look at the rudimentary numbers and go from there.

I put the spreadsheet here for you:

This is what it looks like,without considering anything else,based on 20 pounds of hay and 1 pound of BP.I think you are feeding 1 pound of BP now.
I would be inclined to feed 2mgs of Se as opposed to 1mg.

So you need,in total diet to balance this hay,*at first glance*:

4.9g P
9.8g Mg

1013mg Zn
355mg Cu
329mg* Mn*

2000IU Vit E 1000IU/500lbs BW

5mg I 0.0
1.0mg Se

I hope this gets you started until someone can help you finesse it.Sorry.

Lorna in Ontario,Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
*See What Works in Equine Nutrition*

Re: question on vit e ( sue & princess)

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>

They should just call it  canola oil.
thanks sue & princess
oh 6/10

--- On Fri, 6/15/12, Nancy <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

Re: Bounding Digitals in all four - Help


Hello Dr. Kellon,
Thank you for helping.

I do believe there was sole removed, I watched this final trim. It was all
dead flaky looking stuff that came off easily. He said he was careful to
not remove live tissue. And yes, he was very much more tender after the
trim, to the point of needing to be asked to move forward a few times. The
grass was okay as long as there were no stones and he also walked on the
surface of the roadway so that Steve could video his walk for a comparison
slow motion video to the one my son and I did the week before that showed
the imbalances. The drive way stones were very much a problem. I have a
couple of pictures of the trim that Steve did, but after walking him on the
road the tar stuck to his hoof some then to walk in the grass had some
grass stick to the tar. I will send them to Linda who has been so kind to
post things for me until my son returns.

Steve fitted him for the Swiss hoof boot while we were there and had me
walk him on the drive way with stones again. He was cautious at first but
at about the tenth stride he seemed to step out at almost a normal stride.
He looked relieved with the hoof boots on. I ordered them and they will be
here soon. Malachi is even having trouble on the cement floor in the
barn. Not like the stones in the driveway, but I can tell it is still not
right. He did not even want to come out of his stall.

So I should then, give hand walking in grass to get him moving? His
turnout is a sand arena not too deep and not too firm.

No I have not tried Jiaogulan.

Should I stand him in cold water with ice added for these digitals? I just
need to know what to do to help him so it does not get worse.

Kim Lee in NW PA

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 8:40 AM, drkellon <drkellon@...> wrote:


To answer your question on the green liniment, it doesn't actually cool,
just creates a sensation of cooling.

Was sole removed in the trim that made him sore?

Working in the sand is hard on tendons and ligaments. Walking on grass
would be better.

Have you ever tried Jiaogulan?

Eleanor in PA
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Bounding Digitals in all four - Help

shotgunranch <shotgun.ranch@...>

Kim Lee
I just looked at Malachi's x-rays
Please keep in mind that I'm no expert however about 5-6 years my horse was over trimmed & too much sole removed. He could barely walk, it was horrible. My trimmer blamed it on his arthritic fetlocks but when I put him in pads & boots he was a happy camper, so what did that tell me? Is there any difference when Malachi is in boots?
Just a thought....
Claire in AZ
Aug 2000

--- In EquineCushings@..., Kim Lee Gillette <tkgillette@...> wrote:

Just found the test results from 9/2011 for Malachi.

Re: Standlee timothy pellet test results

Linda <PapBallou@...>

Just wondering anyone have any idea why the iron is so high? Could it be
the soil?

Hi Joyce -

When a feed is processed, it can pick up iron from the milling equipment. Some companies use bentonite, a clay, to help in the binding of the pellet, and that, too, will increase the iron.

EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004

Re: Standlee timothy pellet test results

Joyce/K-J Hollow Andalusians

Just wondering anyone have any idea why the iron is so high? Could it be
the soil?

Also I did ask OD about their timothy pellets a couple of weeks back
response below


Hello Joyce,

If you have issues with IR, then the timothy pellets we can not recommend to
you as it is not a product we make with guaranteed low sugar and starch. We
have two products that we do have that are low NSC's. One product is the
Timothy Balance cube. It is made with pure timothy hay, beet pulp pellets
without molasses, and minerals. We test and choose the lots of timothy hay
we use and also test the beet pulp pellets as well. We then test every
batch of the end result, the Timothy Balance cubes themselves, to make sure
they meet all requirements and are less than 10% NCS. They are a mini cube
which means they are made using a 7/8 " die.

The other product that is guaranteed to have low sugar and starch is the
Beet Pulp Pellets. Since we test it as an ingredient for the Timothy
Balance cube we know that the NSC levels are safe for horses with IR. I
believe the last batch we received had a level of approximately 6%.

Feel free to let me know your Zip/Postal code and I will be glad to find you
the best suited distributor for your area. Please let me know if you have
any other questions that I can answer for you.

Best regards,
Eunice Tiesma
Ontario Dehy

Joyce & Ladina

MN, Feb 2006

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