Date   

For Dr Kellon

Roger Rittenhouse vmaxept <rogerept@...>
 

Asking this question of Dr Kellon or anyone who has the correct repsonse.

How many days can a EC horse on 1 mg Pegolode miss a dose?

If I had to stop doseing for my horse for say 2 days, would there be a major impact.?

What is the withdraw time of Pergolide to preclude a drug test failure.
What does the drug test show. I suspect the actual drug is not tested but some metabolite?

Thanks
Roger R
TN June 2010


Re: Sabrina-Now Photos added

Pat
 

Had good luck with a product called 'Magic Cushion'. Venice based, smear thick black goo on sole, diaper and finish with duck tape booties. Turn out 24/7. Allow horse to wear duck tape off. Helps with the tender footed type, especially after a trim, even tho sole was not touched.

Pat
NC, 2012



Re: Sabrina-Now Photos added

Pat
 

Yes, the sub-bruising continues to reveal itself. Haven't navigated to rads yet, mobile = slow.

Pat
NC, 2012



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Sabrina-Now Photos added

Nancy C
 

PS - All these products were reviewed by HJ while Dr Kellon was still there. In January 2010, I think. You you used to be able to get a two week trial subscription and search the archives for the full article but I think they've discontinued that nifty feature.

This is not a current endorsement of the publication. Just more info to back up what I'm telling you.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Nancy" <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

Hi Gayle

My experience with both Tuffoot and Venice Turpentine and Pine Tar is that they toughen, not harden.


Re: Shedding question

Nancy C
 

Vicki

You made my day, but I especially laughed with this...

Biggest indicator of all that he is feeling better than he used to is that, now he is walking away from his hay to poop. <
That's a huge indicator for me! My fastidious boy does exactly the same when he's feeling good.

Great news! Thanks for letting us know.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...


Re: Sabrina-Now Photos added

Nancy C
 

Hi Gayle

My experience with both Tuffoot and Venice Turpentine and Pine Tar is that they toughen, not harden.

A while back you talked about dry hard ground from lack of rain. I had the same thing going on here and mentioned to you Pine Tar to soften but strengthen the foot. Like VT, it also has some analgesic properties. I just slathered it on twice a day. He's currently not in boots and moving very well as a result.

If she's as sore as she was in the last vid you posted I'd not be worried about sweaty feet. But try a diaper. Or even a little bit of gauze.

You should be able to get both PT and VT at Tractor supply. OR a good tack/hoof shop that especially deals with drafts.

<http://www.bickmore.com/bickmore/Health%20Care/PineTar.html>


Pine Tar

• 100% PURE Pine Tar.
• Offers the best hoof moisture retention
available.
• Topical antiseptic that combats fungicidal
and bacterial infections.
• Helps keep hooves elastic and flexible.
• Promotes new hoof growth.
• Effective treatment for quarter cracks,
split hooves and hard frogs.


You can use the pine tar with the venice turpentine.

Lorna recently suggested a wet face cloth and plastic to soften her frog.
<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/166372>

Epsom salt will dry and can harden when used in soaking.

I've worked on and seen others successfully work on feet as painful as these. Try to fix the foot that hurts the most - the RF. Do what you can from the top to the LF until she can pick it up. Work from the top on the one(s) you can't pick up for now until the RF gets more comfortable.

The hinds will need support too. Can we see some shots of the hinds?

Gayle, I'm hoping you'll ask for some mark ups.

I'd still like to hear what a rim notch is.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

--- In EquineCushings@..., "sunshine12982000" <ourmagicboy@> wrote:

Nancy, Linda, I have a question. One of the really bad problems we've had trying to bring Sabrina's feet back into balance as been the unbeliveable hardness. You can't move the frog, you can't scrape or peel anything. It's just one solid form down there.


Re: Shedding question

merlin5clougher <janieclougher@...>
 

Vicky, wonderful news about Peri. He is so lucky to have you as his human! That's where being paranoid is actually a good thing - it's not really paranoia if there is actually something going on!

Cool about the TENS. I have heard good things about its use on people. Good for you for using it on Peri.


Chasteberry could help with the coat on your oldie, and it won't interfere with ACTH testing in July/Aug.

Thanks for the update, and hugs to Peri,

Jaini (BVSc),Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/





- Aha, Peri! - Jaini, well you wouldn't believe a horse could be so close to the edge and claw his way back. He's looking fantastic if still lacking in muscle a bit. He's not been tripping for about three months now and he's never actually not tripped since I've had him!


Interestingly, I've had some good results with using a TENS on his shoulders.

He has been on .5mg of Perg since about Jan and we've added a Joint supp. Took out the ALCAR. He did about 8 weeks on Omeprazol also at the beginning of the year. That made a huge difference to the yawning, looking round at his sides and exploding on the lunge.

Biggest indicator of all that he is feeling better than he used to is that, now he is walking away from his hay to poop.
Vicky, Peri, UK Aug2011


Re: Sabrina-Now Photos added

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "sunshine12982000" <ourmagicboy@...> wrote:

Nancy, Linda, I have a question. One of the really bad problems we've had trying to bring Sabrina's feet back into balance as been the unbeliveable hardness. You can't move the frog, you can't scrape or peel anything. It's just one solid form down there.
Gayle -

What can help get the sole aspect of the foot correct, is low heel/short toes. The toes are still too long, especially in one foot (don't have the photos in front of me). When the hoof capsule can flex correctly, the hard, dead stuff will start to break apart. It may take time with Sabrina. She has been forming sole in the presence of inflammation for a long time so that imbedded serum is working a lot like glue.

My Tuffoot comment/little experiment was about the bars, not the rest of the foot. It looks as if there has been management of the foot for it to look textbook perfect. I can attest that trimming for textbook bars can, not always, make a horse dead lame. I have to wonder that this is the case with Sabrina.

My point for readers is that you can get to the horse's naturally occurring bar (some are quite deformed and they are what they are) in ways other than forcing it.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Sabrina-Now Photos added

sunshine12982000
 

BTW, forgot to mention the vet just left. He pulled blood for iron (KSU) and ACTH, insulin/glucose, leptin, and thyroid. Hope that will give us some definite answers, although I'm concerned about false positives with the pain/stress she's going through.

Gayle and Sabrina
3/06
Fairview, TN
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Sabrina/


Re: Sabrina-Now Photos added

sunshine12982000
 

Nancy, Linda, I have a question. One of the really bad problems we've had trying to bring Sabrina's feet back into balance as been the unbeliveable hardness. You can't move the frog, you can't scrape or peel anything. It's just one solid form down there. I described it once as seeming like someone had poured resin into a mold, and when it hardened, glued it to the bottom of her leg. I was told by someone else that they completely understood, they had a horse like that. Then I've been encouraged to soak to make trimming easier (which it never did because it never softened anything).

OK, so I researched Venice Turpentine and Tuf-Foot. Both say they will harden the hoof. If she's so hard now we can hardly trim, isn't this going to make things even more difficult?

Also, if we use one of these products, how do we do it inside the Soft-Ride boots? I don't want to wrap in plastic - too much sweating. Would a diaper work. How long does the turpentine stay sticky? I read that the Tuf-Foot dries rather quickly.

Main question still is should we further harden very hard hooves?

Gayle and Sabrina
3/06
Fairview, TN
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Sabrina/


Re: Shedding question

vic
 

Hi Jaini, George & Mike

Thanks for the replies :) I had planned to get him tested July/Aug time when I 'hopefully' do Peri next so long as he doesn't need it doing sooner that is, LOL!

I never can be sure that I'm not just being paranoid, Doh! I did take him to a show weekend gone and the only other horse to have a coat still was a much older looking pone who actually had a striking resemblance in shagginess to my oldie. I'm trying him on some Chastberry at 30g per day to see if that loses the hair in the meantime.

Aha, Peri! - Jaini, well you wouldn't believe a horse could be so close to the edge and claw his way back. He's looking fantastic if still lacking in muscle a bit. He's not been tripping for about three months now and he's never actually not tripped since I've had him! I had tried to bring him back into work at the end of last year or beginning of this, can't remember now but it didn't go well by day four both times.... but, touching all things wooden, he's not gone off this time. I'm just keeping a strict routine of walk and trot with some walk laterals for the time being but he's coping with it just fine. He had been growning a high medial wall on the fronts but this seems to be sorting itself out which is probably linked to a slightly wider stance. All positive stuff. Vet three had now also said that I'd be better off looking for a wife for him rather than trying to get him right under saddle but being the stubborn old goat that I am, I'm not for giving up just yet :)

Interestingly, I've had some good results with using a TENS on his shoulders. He's still lying down two/three times daily but his stance has improved since using the TENS. So being that all the structures which have been compensating for years maybe for lots of pain/discomfort in feet, legs, shoulders, neck, I guess something has to break the cycle and allow for the body to get itself back to where it needs to be. God I'm just waffling now but I'm sure you know what I mean here?!So I'm hopeful that the laying down will get less over the next few months now.

He has been on .5mg of Perg since about Jan and we've added a Joint supp. Took out the ALCAR. He did about 8 weeks on Omeprazol also at the beginning of the year. That made a huge difference to the yawning, looking round at his sides and exploding on the lunge.

Biggest indicator of all that he is feeling better than he used to is that, now he is walking away from his hay to poop. He used to just turn around and poop on or right by his hay then stand right back in it to continue eating. He'd do this in his stable and outside. Again, he's never been this clean since I've had him and I know that a previous owner complained of this behaviour and he would have only been 9yrs old then. Poor lad must have had stuff going on for a long time which is why I'm absolutely not quitting just now on him :)

And me, well, I've just been keeping my head down and reading and learning lots. All hopefully to help him ultimately :)

Vicky, Peri, UK Aug2011

As George says, testing is the best way to tell. If for some reason you can't test, and his shedding delays well into summer, then for sure pop him on pergolide in mid-July - don't want to risk fall laminitis.

How is Peri doing? I think of him often.


Re: Sabrina-Now Photos added

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 


I'd sure be leaving any bar pooling alone with that bruise. I know exactly what is being referred to here. I have seen it on my own horse. IME, it flakes off in time. Checked the concept with Dr Bowker. He agreed.

I have to agree with Nancy with the comment. I once thought the bars were the bane of the earth because I had been taught that. I now know that the excessive management done by some is simply not going to make the horse more comfortable. Some horses couldn't care less about how you trim bars, and others do. The key is to know which is the case.

I would stop that bar trimming now. I sort of cringed when I saw the new photos, but was not surprised.

One thing I stumbled on quite by accident was how the product Tuffoot has a secondary great effect - since it has drying properties, it dried out the excess bar that had *pooled* and instead of me digging it out, which made this one horse dead lame, it simply popped out. With that horse, I trim by Tuffoot.

In my little several horse experiment, I found it works wonderfully with bars that naturally grow at an angle to lay over, or those that seem to have melded with the sole. What is really dead will dry out.

I do think there is a big difference in trimming a normal foot for great form, and trimming a laminitic foot just to regain it back.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Questions RE; IR

c_searcher@...
 

HI,Lavinia,
Thank-you for the explanation! Felt like a dummy after posting found
many articles in the files giving an indepth explanation of IR. I just
really want to fully understand this process. Also, Uckele is doing my
mineral mix. They are using Distillers?? as base, stevia and fenugreek
for flavoring due to the high amounts of phosphorous and magnesium
needed in my mix. Are Distillers and stevia O.K ? Appreciate your help!!
Kim,Snicki and TeddySpooner,WiMay 2012
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Kim%20H%2C%20Wi/


Are the insulin levels in IR horses elevated to keep the glucose
under control?




The glucose isn't resistant to the effcts of the insulin, the cells
are. The cells use the glucose for food and are screaming that they are
starving but do not allow it in when the insulin "knocks on the door".
The body answers by producing more insulin to knock more often.
Check with the manufacturer as to what they are using as the
flavoring - it could be just an "essence" of the fenugreek, not the herb
itself. It shouldn't be an issue as a flavoring in your mineral mix.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC SupportTeam


Trouble finding your way around the ECIR Group list?

Nancy C
 

Trouble finding your way around the ECIR Group list?

There's so much info here, the links below can help you negotiate the learning curve and find background to questions and issues:


*** DDT+E - Diagnosis, Diet, Trim plus Exercise - What is it?

<http://www.ecirhorse.com/index.php/ddt-overview>

Once at the above page, click on the black boxes for even more detail.


*** Table of Contents - searchable document for all the files in three ECIR Group lists

<http://tinyurl.com/6lsvppq>


*** Archived Messages - How to Search this treasure trove of information and history

<http://tinyurl.com/767cxyy>


*** Moving OT Topic to sister or related lists

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/167167>


*** Current Case History filing cabinet accepting new member info

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/>



Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Teams of the Equine Cushings Lists


Re: Sabrina-Now Photos added

Nancy C
 

Hi Gayle

I'd sure be leaving any bar pooling alone with that bruise. I know exactly what is being referred to here. I have seen it on my own horse. IME, it flakes off in time. Checked the concept with Dr Bowker. He agreed.

Can someone explain what a rim notch is please? It was suggested one on the photos. I know it is used by a particular trim school but I'm not clear on that term, why and when it is used.

Hope you will look into either arnica for that bruise, or venice turpentine. Just gone through the kind of footing Pat describes only dry and hard. Tried both the above remedies and the VT is working the best.

What applies to Sabrina is what *she* says makes her feel better. Gayle, we can put together an approach but it's going to be different than what you have been doing. Contrary to at least one member opinion you've heard, we've done it successfully. A lot.

Is she still shifting on the hinds like she was in a video you posted a week or more ago?

Thanks

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...


Thanks, Pat. Here is link to February and April x-rays.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/861226757/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

We've been working on overgrown bars. X-rays seem to show she's lost some sole, but even the vet admits that's questionable, since sole and bar look pretty much the same on x-rays. Don't know. Some of the research I've found says bruising can occur (or show up if it was already deeply there) when pooled bar is removed. There are hundreds of different ideas, and it's just so difficult to know which applies to Sabrina.


MESSAGE POSTING ETIQUETTE - KEEPING ECIR USER FRIENDLY

tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>
 

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Re: Sabrina-Now Photos added

sunshine12982000
 

Have considered having your vet take lateral radiographs to check sole depth and P3 angles?
Thanks, Pat. Here is link to February and April x-rays.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/photos/album/861226757/pic/list?mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

We've been working on overgrown bars. X-rays seem to show she's lost some sole, but even the vet admits that's questionable, since sole and bar look pretty much the same on x-rays. Don't know. Some of the research I've found says bruising can occur (or show up if it was already deeply there) when pooled bar is removed. There are hundreds of different ideas, and it's just so difficult to know which applies to Sabrina.

Gayle and Sabrina
3/06
Fairview, TN
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Sabrina/


Re: Sabrina-Now Photos added

Pat
 

Had a similar sounding issue during a particularly cold, icy winter.

An OTTB with deep and copius sub-solar bruising. The bruises continued to reveal themselves for eight months. He was much more comfortable when we put him back in front shoes. A typical thin soled, thin walled turf horse. Tried for several years to have him go barefoot, but he never would lay down enough sole. We tried, had a very skilled natural hoof care specialist.


Have considered having your vet take lateral radiographs to check sole depth and P3 angles?


Pat Land
May, 2012



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Tired horse, vet suggests Red Cell

crossley_liz
 

Yes, thank you Rose, I do clean his sheath and legs, I used pure soap and water yesterday and rinsed it plenty. I need to do it more frequently than once a year. I only recently read that this black smelly discharge is a sign of IR and potential laminitis. It had been much better until recently.

I rode my horse today and he did seem livelier, maybe it was the weather (cold and windy) or maybe he is noticing the extra protein already! I am increasing it gradually,I do not want any upsets.

Thank you for your comments

Liz

UK
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Crossley%20-%20Sifwa%20-%20UK/


Re: Equi-Analytical #603? or #644?

Lavinia <dnlf@...>
 

I appreciate that suggestion; I didn't realize I could just test for ESC and starch.
Hi Sara,
You can test for a single mineral if you want. EA will keep the sample for a week or two after they run whatever analyses you ask for so once you get the ESC+Starch numbers you can request more tests if you want to without sending in another sample.
Would you please add your general location to your future posts and delete most, if not all, of the post you are answering. This makes it much easier for everyone and can help us to help you better. Thanks for your assistance with this.

Lavinia, Dante, George Too and Peanut
Jan 05, RI
EC Support Team