Date   

Re: Custom Feed?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

With as much as you are going to be feeding on non-hay, it would be worthwhile to contact Aurelio at Ontario Dehy and get a price on a pallet of the ODTB cubes.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: New member in New Mexico ..... basic help/questions - thank you!

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Sharon,

We'll look forward to your history but from the information so far the radiographs are more consistent with an overlying long toe and somewhat underrun hoof than with laminitis but can't rule it out. Nerve blocks would tell you more and photos would help us. Was she sound on all surfaces and inclines previously?

Antech's insulins tend to run much lower than other labs. I would consider repeating that and the TRH stimulation and sending to Cornell. The TRH stimulation shouldn't be done that early in November because we don't have seasonally adjusted normal but with a response that high it is probably a true positive.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Custom Feed?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 01:45 PM, <lindsaykrauland@...> wrote:
Dr. Kellon, in the recent blog I posted above, you discuss the need for a proper Ca:P ratio in any homemade mixes but only address trace minerals for hay balancing.  However in an older blog, you mention that trace minerals become more of an issue with homemade mixes at feeding rates over 1 kg/day.
That's correct. If it's over 10% of the ration, you need to consider it in balancing as a rule of thumb.
Ca:P is good for the feeds we had already discussed, which are 6 lb beet pulp, 3 lb wheat bran, 1 lb flax daily.  (1.3:1 overall Ca:P) Do I need to worry about trace mineral balancing?  Hay is already balanced, and he’ll also be getting a couple lbs of ODTBC daily, at least until his weight is in a better place.
With the amounts you are feeding, yes you do.
I’m just resigned to the idea that I’ll have to RSR beet pulp pellets, which do seem to be the most readily available.  However, for those times that I can get unmolassed BP shreds, would it be enough to simply wet them down rather than the entire RSR routine? Could Audi handle that amount of unsoaked shreds?
The whole routine.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: New member in New Mexico ..... basic help/questions - thank you!

Sharon Bice
 

Oh goodness, just realize I need a case history. I will do tonight or tomorrow first thing. I’m sorry! Will get photos of feet and perhaps better body photos. Thx again for this forum!
--
Sharon Bice, New Mexico,  2020


New member in New Mexico ..... basic help/questions - thank you!

Sharon Bice
 

Hi there from New Mexico! My 14 year old mare was diagnosed with laminitis & Cushings this past month. I’m thankful to have found this group;I have no experience with either issue. I am not sure if this is the right group for laminitis questions, but will include this information in my post. 
 
I started noticing this year that she was resistant to being ridden, which she has never previously been. I ride often rocky and sometimes steep trails. Even after getting Cavallo boots for riding (I pulled her shoes in the beginning of the year) and a new nicer fitting saddle she wasn’t happy about being ridden. And then in mid-September (about 1.5 mos ago), after going on a steep smooth downhill part of a trail she was very choppy/short strided in her front. As well, she still likes to avoid some rocks while riding. So I took her to the local vet and he took x-rays and did the cushings/insulin tests. Her diagnosis: low-grade, early stage laminitis and Cushings. Solution: good barefoot trims every 4-6 weeks, and Prascend 1 mg/day. 
 
Here are my Questions:
 
1) I am not sure this diagnosis of Cushings is correct. My nutritionist wanted me to investigate. It was done Nov 1. Should I get her bloodwork done again? Do I keep her on Prascend?
 
2) Can I still ride her - how do I know? I can use padded boots (or no padding - the Cavallo boot brand padding isn’t much)? Do the trails need to be soft footing (no rocks) and no inclines/declines? 
 
3) Her diet: 
 
~ She is 15 hands, bigger build quarter horse. She was very overweight (my nutritionist estimated via internet photos about 990 but I’d say she was more, although no fat pads, cresty neck, etc).  I am now using hay nets for my tested Bermuda hay and she doesn’t like the nets so I am afraid/concerned she is now not getting enough of her hay - maybe only 10lbs/day, versus the recommended 15-18. It is hard for me to tell but when I put out the 15-18lbs/day in two slow-feeder hay nets and the barrel there is some still left after 24 hours. And my younger horse seems to be eating more often. She prefers the hay slow-feeder (porta-grazer) barrels. They are in a large 10 acre wooded pasture (no grass basically a wooded dry lot), and it would be complicated to feed them differently. Younger horse  is also on a diet. They are on some nutritional supplements to balance out a mineral deficiency in their hay as per Clair and Summit-Equine Nutrition. 
 
 
Here is the link to images of foot, photo of mare and vet report:  https://imgur.com/a/XVCElqH 
 
 
Please let me know if you have any thoughts. My main wish is to keep her feeling well and be able to ride her. Thanks so much in advance - Sharon & Tailight
--
Sharon Bice, New Mexico,  2020


Re: Custom Feed?

 

I fed Logo beet pulp for quite awhile and used both shreds and pellets.  They both needed lots of care because it’s not just any sugars remaining after processing you are trying to decrease but the iron as well.  It’s been awhile but it seemed as though the shreds needed more rinsing than the pellets but neither of them is ready to eat.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Toxic laminitis broodmare

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Anel
I'm so sorry your mare is going through this. Although we don't know if she is PPID or EMS at present, I am sending you our new member welcome message, as it contains information that will be helpful in your management of her through this crisis. Please refer particularly to the Diet section, as the forage-based diet we recommend, low in sugar and starch, is the basis for every horse's diet not just PPID or IR horses. It should help keep her insulin and blood glucose steady and stable. There are also many ideas on how to manage her feet while she is in pain in the Trim section. You can click on the blue links in the message for further information. 
I'm glad Dr Kellon was able to respond as well. I can add that you could pad her feet while she is lying down, boots with soft padding are great, or you can duct-tape pads to her feet--cut up gym mats, styrofoam, old felt saddle pads, diapers, anything that gives her comfort. Shake some athlete's foot powder or zinc oxide powder on the hoof under the pad for hygiene. 
Make sure she has hay and water within her reach while she is lying down. Many members have nursed their horses through similar situations--you are not alone. If you have time, you can do a search of the Messages for their experiences. For example, Lorna's experience with horses lying down for longer periods has helped many members. 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/253016

If you can create a case history folder and photo folder as detailed in the message below, you can post radiograph copies there for Dr Kellon to comment on, once you have the rads done. 

Here is the welcome message. It's long, but full of important information that we hope will help.

Hello 

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Custom Feed?

lindsaykrauland@...
 

Dr. Kellon, in the recent blog I posted above, you discuss the need for a proper Ca:P ratio in any homemade mixes but only address trace minerals for hay balancing.  However in an older blog, you mention that trace minerals become more of an issue with homemade mixes at feeding rates over 1 kg/day.

Ca:P is good for the feeds we had already discussed, which are 6 lb beet pulp, 3 lb wheat bran, 1 lb flax daily.  (1.3:1 overall Ca:P) Do I need to worry about trace mineral balancing?  Hay is already balanced, and he’ll also be getting a couple lbs of ODTBC daily, at least until his weight is in a better place.

I’m just resigned to the idea that I’ll have to RSR beet pulp pellets, which do seem to be the most readily available.  However, for those times that I can get unmolassed BP shreds, would it be enough to simply wet them down rather than the entire RSR routine? Could Audi handle that amount of unsoaked shreds?  And would iron in the shreds likely be a problem if they’re unrinsed?

--
Lindsay in TX 2020

Audi Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi

Audi Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156 


Re: Fertilizer

Frances C.
 

Hah! Baling up the tarp is good reason for giving it all up. Oh what things you can find in a bale of hay! Brings back memories of my 90 year old plus neighbor with his 2 stroke tractor (Phut Phut, never to forget that sound.) and his sickle bar, then rolling the bales into the bucket of his tractor. Wouldn't accept any help - loved that old tough devil.
On the questions re fertilizer - since my horses tolerate alfalfa with no problems and having the opportunity of buying commercially grown or a dry land crop, sort of a wild native whose soil has not been disturbed for over 20 years nor fertilized, which would be the best? I try to get the last cutting of the season, 4th for the commercial and 2nd for the wild.
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Re: Dr. K Blog On Hay Belly - Could Relevante Have This?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The best way to tell is the view from the front. If they look pregnant, there's a problem.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Dr. K Blog On Hay Belly - Could Relevante Have This?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I wish there was a guaranteed safe exercise regimen for older horses but there isn't. It's just too complicated with nutrition and other musculoskeletal issues like old injuries also playing a part. Your schedule looks perfectly reasonable. Just be alert for things like decreasing enthusiasm for the exercise and stiffness when starting out. When in doubt, skip a day or two of formal exercise but still allow turnout.

You're within the reported dosages for even concentrated Ashwangandha extracts so no concerns there! It is rather unique among the adaptogens in having a calming/anti-anxiety effect.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Dr. K Blog On Hay Belly - Could Relevante Have This?

Bobbie Day
 

My of my geldings I am sure has a hay belly going on, Dr.K do you have any pictures for comparison? He’s one of my rescues so I don’t have too much information on him but his diet is balanced but he has other issues I won’t go into here (not IR or PPID).


--
Bobbie and Desi
NRC March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: Free Fecal Water Syndrome and Question from Dr. Teskey

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Psyllium at the level you are giving it is only about 2% of the total diet, extremely low.  Research in other species has found no significant impact of psyllium on mineral absorption when used in the usual therapeutic amounts. It's even less of a concern for the horse because they ferment the fiber, releasing any bound minerals.

If the horse is on pergolide I would give that an hour before feeding psyllium just to be safe because the dose of active medication is so low but otherwise there's no issue.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Free Fecal Water Syndrome and Question from Dr. Teskey

larkstabatha
 

Hello Dr. Kellon... I am thankful to report that Tabby's manure has become more formed since I increased the Psyllium to give it to her as you recommended twice per day.  A few of my horse friends and my husband got photos of the balls in her manure.. I was so excited! 

Even tho I know better, I made the mistake of changing more than one thing at a time with increased Psyllium and transitioning her to a new hay.  I was thinking I would back off the Psyllium once the hay transition is complete to see what might happen at that point.  

Tomas was here yesterday and wanted me to ask you if there is a concern with feeding Psyllium and it preventing other supplements from being absorbed if fed together.  Is it okay to give them together, or in separate feedings.. or best to count on the supplements not being at full efficacy while Psyllium is also in the daily meal plan?

Thanks very much,  Sally
--
Sally in Big Park, Arizona/April 2013

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sally%20with%20Tabby%20and%20Maisie 

  

 

 


Re: Fertilizer

 

Hi Carol,
Could you please share some links for this sort of equipment?  I’m not too likely to start on that project now although we used to hay many years ago with antique equipment.  I am curious, however.  The last thing we did was to bale up the tarp protecting the baler, at which point we gave it all away.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Dr. K Blog On Hay Belly - Could Relevante Have This?

Lynn
 

Hi Dr. Kellon - thank you so much for your response! I will check out that link. And thank you for confirming and reminding me to go slow! It has taken us almost a month to get up to 30 minutes of hand walking in the arena - do you feel that is too fast? How long should I consider going before adding more time on (i.e. should he be at 30 minutes for 2 weeks and then add 5 or 10 minutes more?). I definitely don't want to push this. I've been paying the barn owners daughter to hand walk him on the days I can't be there so that the exercise is fairly consistent. Actually with the Ashwagandha I do feel like his outlook is brighter. The chiropractor noticed too. Because he tends to leave some of his "powders" behind from his supplements I've been putting 1 tsp. in the am. baggy and 1 tsp in the pm baggy. Is that too much?
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: Fertilizer

 

Cindy et al.,

There are dealers in the U.S. that sell hay equipment designed for smaller acreage.   We purchased some this year because we were mowing down most of our 8 acres of pasture.  The bales from a mini round baler are 40 to 60 pounds and easy to lift and store.  

Carol Broyles 
Spring Valley,  OH 
August 2007


Re: Dr. K Blog On Hay Belly - Could Relevante Have This?

Lynn
 

Hi Tracy,
Thank you so much for your input. It is valuable! When i rescued Relevante he was a bag of bones. Starved. We got him past that and had a wonderful summer of riding and physical recovery until laminitis hit him in the fall (due to Cushings) and then PPID diagnosis a few months later. He has had the topline/belly thing since diagnosis. Even when I bumped his pergolide up to 3 mgs. that never changed (except it made him crazy)...we've been at 2 mg. ever since. The vet and chiropractor seem to feel the topline/belly/rump are largely related to the lack of conditioning due to his issues with his feet which have caused long periods of downtime. I did just start him on the new Uckele Muscle EQ - his diet has been balanced since day 1. We went through the whole hay weighing exercise etc., with our hay balancer so I know his hay intake is correct. His Renegade Vipers came today so I'm going out to try those on and see if they fit (fingers crossed). That will allow me to start hand walking him outside the arena for longer periods. I just want to make sure I'm doing everything I can for him.
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: Help for IR mini please - new to group

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Great news, Francine. Many horses have trim issues that get in the way of seeing this but you are a perfect example of how quickly the correct diet can help.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Dr. K Blog On Hay Belly - Could Relevante Have This?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If you mean the photos from September, he looks to have a sagging abdomen but I don't see any prominent distention and wouldn't call this a hay belly. I agree the ACTH is well controlled but older horses in general also develop sarcopenia - a loss of  muscle mass with multiple causes behind it https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6442923/ . The most effective way to control this is with exercise but you have to be extremely careful not to overdo it .  The Muscle EQ and Tendon EQ are power protection but you will still need to go slowly and give it lots of time.

On another front, did you see any change with the Ashwagandha?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

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