Date   

Re: A little info on APF

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "hoofbeats5" <hoofbeats5@...> wrote:

I found APF on a web search then found it recommended here in the files. She had one dose last night, one this morning (stopped the bute). Tonight she came happily out of her stall and even tried to trot during our walk. I am totally amazed if that stuff works so quickly or even works at all, but I think I'm about to become a believer!

Yes, it often does work that quickly! Stopping the bute probably helped too. The more depressed the horse was to begin with, the more dramatic the response. Adaptogens regulate the cortisol response to stress, pain, etc.

You do have to be careful about letting them do too much on compromised feet. Do you have a good farrier/trimmer to work with you on realigning her hoof capsule?

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Seeking source of ODTC or Sterett Fog Pellets in Olympia WA

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "wolf1ette" <wolf1ette@...> wrote:

My cushings gelding has tested to approach high IR risk (G:I ratio 5.11). I have been feeding a combination of BP, local hay and LMF Low carb complete. I think I need to go to a different diet as soon as I can.

I am searching for a source for:
Sterett Fog Pellets or Ontario Dehy Timothy cubes?
The pellets are being made by Mid Valley Milling. They have a dealer locator on the web site:

http://midvalleymillinghaypellets.com/find-pellet-dealer

They're the low NSC pelleted hay with balancing minerals, bottom of this page:

http://midvalleymillinghaypellets.com/product-lineup/hay-pellets

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Time to add levothyroxine?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "jrlaur46" <jrlaur46@> wrote:

Hi All -- I've posted a current summary of my QH mare Manda's labs which includes the last one done a couple weeks ago.
Yes, you could add thyroid supplementation but you'll need fresh drug. 2 to 3 years is too long. Are her cycles still a problem? If so, contact me or ask Lisa to. There have been some developments in treatment of these mares.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: protocal for horse that got out on grass????

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Laura Matthews" <lauratmatt@...> wrote:
Apparently there is a close relationship with the adaptogens that are in APF
Pro and the same ingredients that are in the MMP STOP. I do know that it
worked wonderfully from my close call. My horse licked it out of the bowl
like cake batter and there was no need to syringe it in.
I don't believe this is snake oil. It worked too well as stated on the label
and the support from the company was very reassuring.....I'm just saying....
.Not everyone would/will try it, but desperate times call for desperate
measures ......I believe we averted a disaster because of this product!
Hi Laura,

It's wonderful that Boo didn't have any trouble after his grazing, but I wouldn't be so sure this product is why. We've had many experiences with "break outs" on the list over the years, and the vast majority of horses don't have any serious consequences if they have been carefully managed and controlled before the grass episode happened.

Many grasses have reached a mature growth stage by this time of year, especially in early growth areas such as yours. They can still be dangerous, but not as much as when in very early growth stages. Many factors, yet to be identified, determine whether or not an individual horse is pushed over the edge. During the period of the Va Polytechnic field study, 54 ponies were identified as being at risk/having had laminitis in the past, yet only 13 got laminitic that spring.

Many factors go into overall risk of laminitis if an IR horse gets access to grass, but if we arbitrarily put a low overall risk on it, lets say 10% chance, that's still too great a risk for most owners to take, especially if they have already seen first hand the devastation that laminitis causes. On the other hand, if you're selling a supplement that is supposed to prevent laminitis and let the horse graze, those numbers work in your favor.

The only thing proven to prevent laminitis after exposure to a trigger is icing the feet. Proven is the key word here. To prove something works, you have to set up conditions where untreated horses will reliably develop laminitis then show the product or drug prevented it in the ones that were treated.

As for being like APF, "it's in there" doesn't cut it. Just like with drugs, dosage is important. The difference between dried herb and herbal extract is also extremely important. There are many herbs with documented anti-inflammatory properties but they have to be fed in very large amounts to be effective unless the active ingredients have been concentrated in an extract. Without full disclosure, there's no way to determine how potent, or not, a product will be.

It's also very risky to feed something when you don't know all the ingredients. We've seen complete ingredient lists from several products from that supplier which turned out to contain herbs contraindicated for an IR or Cushing's horse, a pain masking ingredient, even an herb prohibited by the FDA. Again, dose would help determine risk but that information is not forthcoming.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Nosebleeds

litewriterrs
 

My now-confirmed Cushings/IR 24yo TB has been getting nosebleeds since last fall. Had him tested a few weeks ago (still waiting to get a copy -- poor vet is alone in his practice, and of course the day he came out for my other critters, his printer failed) and both the Cushings test and the IR test came back positive. When I asked about the nosebleeds, my vet said that short of scoping him, there was no way to know the cause, and even knowing, might not be treatable. From other things I've read, I can understand that. He suggested Vit. K, to keep the amount down. So far, although he spreads it all over when it no doubt tickles, the amount of blood seems to be fairly small maybe 1/4 of a cup. That is, except when he came back from testing. I found a puddle then that may have been about 2 cups. He was very stressed by being away from home, even though I took his buddy along too (they got their spring shots while there, so it wasn't a waste.) Vet and I agree that this extra flow was probably stress-induced.
Does this have any connection to Cushings, or is it something else? Anyone know of a good source for Vitamin K for equines? I'll add test results to files once I get them.
Randi & Paulie, Wyoming, Feb 2010.


Re: Ontario balance cubes amounts?

 

Timmi,

I use Triple Crown Lite to help get supplements down for a few of my horses. A quart seems like a lot of TCL. It is designed to only feed from 2 to 4 lbs./day and no more than 4. I feed about 1/2 lb. mixed with beet pulp and supplements, and 1/2 pound measures out to be about 1/3 of a 13 oz. coffee can. It is very dense. Have you actually weighed the amount you are feeding of both the cubes and the TCL?

IMO, Wellsolve is overpriced and has way too much iron in it. I would have to add even more copper and zinc to my supplements to make up for the high iron in the Wellsolve.

Carol
Dayton, Ohio
August 2007

--- In EquineCushings@..., timfantim@... wrote:

My mare in lock down due to foundering in 12 x 24 ft. stall is getting less
than a qt. of TCL a.m./p.m. until I switch, on vet's recommendation, to
WellSolve with all appropriate meds. Right now I'm giving her two 3 quart
scoops of the hay cubes, soaked, and 1 flake of hay per feed, a.m./p.m. Am I
feeding too much, too little of
the cubes?

Thank you.

Timmi in MD
0909





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: A little info on APF

hoofbeats5
 

Hi Sue,
My mare is an extremely easy keeper. I have had her since she was 6 months old and at around 2 she started to get overweight, very cresty neck, fat pads on either side of her tail, huge fat behind the shoulder. She was on timothy hay, Nutrena Safe Choice, and pasture. I changed Safe Choice to a handfull of alfalfa pellets to carry supplements, cut hay down and pasture time. Her feet started to deteriorate (chip, cracks) so I decided my supplements must not be right. Anyhow, I heard about Nutrena Lite Balance for IR and Cushings so I put her on that hoping it would help. Funny thing is I had the vet out the week before she foundered to check her and see what he thought about IR. At that time he wasn't too concerned about blood work, he just said to try to control her sugars (soak hay etc) . The next week he came out and gave spring shots. She foundered the following day. I think she already had a mild laminitis and the shots pushed her over the
edge. She has lost about 200 lbs. since she foundered as I've been soaking hay and she get Zero grass. The grass was the problem, but she still has the cresty neck and fat behind her shoulders. I think I am going to have the vet out for glucose testing anyhow but he said it requires a special tube and timing so we have to get that set up with our work schedule. I hope your horse is doing OK.
Laura




________________________________
From: sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Fri, June 18, 2010 12:03:31 AM
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] A little info on APF


Hello,
I have a horse that the vet thinks she has IR. but shes on different things, does your horse have a crusty neck and fatty patches. its hard to explain. but why does your vet think your horse IR? mine foundered at 18% and on only hay no grass. please let me know.
thanks sue

--- On Thu, 6/17/10, hoofbeats5 <hoofbeats5@...> wrote:

From: hoofbeats5 <hoofbeats5@...>
Subject: [EquineCushings] A little info on APF
To: EquineCushings@...
Date: Thursday, June 17, 2010, 7:44 PM



Hi all, I've only posted a couple of times..mostly read and learn from everyone's posts. I just want to share this and I may be jumping the gun a bit, but here goes. My mare foundered two months ago. The vet thinks it's probably IR, but wasn't all that interested in blood work. He put her on Thyroid, bute, and acepromazine, soaked hay and low starch diet. She hasn't been able to go off the bute even in two months and walk without pain. Her feet are too unstable (10 degree rotation) to put her in a dirt paddock so she stays in a deeply bedded stall and is hand walked when she is willing. I have been so frustrated and worried about her. I found APF on a web search then found it recommended here in the files. She had one dose last night, one this morning (stopped the bute). Tonight she came happily out of her stall and even tried to trot during our walk. I am totally amazed if that stuff works so quickly or even works at all, but I think
I'm about to become a believer! Just want to say thanks to whoever created this group...Also put my Cushings mare on it.

It's true we will try anything to help our horses when laminitis happens. I would try snake oil at 200.00 an ounce if someone said it would help! This group is helping me to make the right choices and I sure appreciate it.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Clarification on current status of Majik and Rafiq...

Shannon
 

The questions I've been asking are preventative.

Both Rafiq and Majik are completely off any sort of pain medications, and are doing very well. Rafiq had an abscess irritating him, but that has resolved itself (with the help of ichtammol poulticing on the sole of the foot). He is so comfortable that I have to hold him back from prancing and snorting and acting like a young stud rather than a 19 yr old gelding. This is on a hay-only diet! Majik has not had a single flare up in a couple of years. I've made diet changes along the way to move more in line with what is described here. Her Xrays and hooves look like she never foundered at all. She has plenty of sole and we are pursuing a show career along with lots of trailriding.

I believe that Rafiq would eventually return to a sound state for riding IF he didn't have a nasty bone spur within his hoof and poking into navicular suspensory ligament. This was there LONG before he foundered with Cushing's and IR, and he's been off at a trot for a long time. A great WP with many championships together as a team - and even more fun adventures on the trails. Once we get more sole on that hoof, I'll be able to give him more space than the small turnout attached to his stall.

Rafiq has made this recovery with many brains in the mix, many of them right on this list. Majik's continued good health is also courtesy of much from this list. Neither is testing with high insulin at this time, so my understanding is that it is under control, as is Rafiq's PPID with Pergolide. Hopefully I'll be able to take Rafiq along on many more adventures by ponying or just as my really big (expensive) dog as our future unfolds.

I just want to take all the preventative precautions I can, and this includes regular testing and Xrays along with farrier down to 4 wk intervals. (Will be 3 if needed!) Majik will be on the same schedule to keep it straight in my brain. She lives in FULL turnout all day (stall at night seems to be her comfort zone). The turnout is huge, and it has no grass as it is clay-sand based. But she gets to run as much as she likes as long as its not muddy. In this heat and humidity, however, running is not always the choice of even youthful horses.

Just wanted y'all to know - with all the posts I've been making concerning supplements and hay - there is no current crisis, and no current (or recent even) pain.

Shannon, Majik and Rafiq
Houston / June 2009


Re: Seeking source of ODTC or Sterett Fog Pellets in Olympia WA

Pam Miller <pam.miller24@...>
 

Ursula,

I just looked on the Mid Valley Milling website and saw that Linda Sterett Fogarty is the contact for them.  Gee, name look familiar.  :)  I do remember calling her a couple years back too.  

Pam
June 2010
NorCal - Gold Country




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Balancing the diet and hay testing

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

I buy about 20 to 30 bales at a time. Will the minerals be basically the same since the same farm grew all of the hay?
Hi - your name?

This can be a bit of a loaded question. In theory, coming from the same farm, you will probably find the minerals to be pretty close. Sugar/starch will be a moving target.

I say this with a little trepidation since I don't want people to test from a grower once, and then expect the results to always be very close.

Many of my neighbors now balance their hay, and most get their hay from a grower not too far away. The results have been quite different each time. Two live next door to each other and their mineral mixes are not even close. One had never heard of magnesium since she doesn't need it, but the neighbor needs quite a bit.

I get hay from a different grower. All my tests (I think eight now over the past two years) have been darn similar. But I have many tests to prove to me that they are similar. I would want some track history before even contemplating it.

Trace minerals can be rather predictable from area to area, hence a few regional mixes are out there. But the major minerals are just not as predictable.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Commitment - What We Do Here and Why We Do It

Shannon
 

It is this very commitment that will keep me coming back (ie, you aren't getting rid of me), even when all I have is the best I can do at this time. As far as I'm concerned, it was the information provided here which saved Rafiq's life and has prevented relapses for Majik. So far, what I can do is proving to work, and I adjust as new doors open.

So THANK YOU for being committed.

Shannon, Rafiq, and Majik
Houston, June 2009

--- In EquineCushings@..., Nancy Collins <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

Time to roll this out from our files. You can find it in folder
number 8, Pulling it Together, here

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/8%20Pulling%20it%20Together/


Re: A little info on APF

sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
 

Hello,
I have a horse that the vet thinks she has IR. but shes on different things, does your horse have a crusty neck and fatty patches. its hard to explain. but why does your vet think your horse IR?  mine foundered at 18% and on only hay no grass. please let me know.
thanks sue

--- On Thu, 6/17/10, hoofbeats5 <hoofbeats5@...> wrote:

From: hoofbeats5 <hoofbeats5@...>
Subject: [EquineCushings] A little info on APF
To: EquineCushings@...
Date: Thursday, June 17, 2010, 7:44 PM







 









Hi all, I've only posted a couple of times..mostly read and learn from everyone's posts. I just want to share this and I may be jumping the gun a bit, but here goes. My mare foundered two months ago. The vet thinks it's probably IR, but wasn't all that interested in blood work. He put her on Thyroid, bute, and acepromazine, soaked hay and low starch diet. She hasn't been able to go off the bute even in two months and walk without pain. Her feet are too unstable (10 degree rotation) to put her in a dirt paddock so she stays in a deeply bedded stall and is hand walked when she is willing. I have been so frustrated and worried about her. I found APF on a web search then found it recommended here in the files. She had one dose last night, one this morning (stopped the bute). Tonight she came happily out of her stall and even tried to trot during our walk. I am totally amazed if that stuff works so quickly or even works at all, but I think
I'm about to become a believer! Just want to say thanks to whoever created this group...Also put my Cushings mare on it.



It's true we will try anything to help our horses when laminitis happens. I would try snake oil at 200.00 an ounce if someone said it would help! This group is helping me to make the right choices and I sure appreciate it.

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Seeking source of ODTC or Sterett Fog Pellets in Olympia WA

Pam Miller <pam.miller24@...>
 

Ursula,

I have been on the phone this week with OD, TC, and 2 local feed dealers to get the ODTBC in our area.  I have got a date of them being delivered next week to 2 local feed dealers.  What about Mid Valley Milling in Washington?  This was endorsed by the ECgroup a few years back and they still say that on their website.  I couldn't get anywhere with them delivering down here then, but did not bother to try again since I found the ODTBC.

I will get all the numbers I have from OD and TC, as well as a rep's name and forward that to you tonight.
 Pam
June 2010
NorCal - Gold Country




________________________________
From: wolf1ette <wolf1ette@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Thu, June 17, 2010 8:20:29 PM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Seeking source of ODTC or Sterett Fog Pellets in Olympia WA

 
My cushings gelding has tested to approach high IR risk (G:I ratio 5.11). I have been feeding a combination of BP, local hay and LMF Low carb complete. I think I need to go to a different diet as soon as I can.

I am searching for a source for:
Sterett Fog Pellets or Ontario Dehy Timothy cubes?

Does anyone live in or near Olympia, WA and can tell me a dealer or store that carries or sells them?

Looking at the files for this group, those are the feeds that are most reliably low in harmful sugar. Or, are there some other feeds available that are recommended for IR horses?

Thanks.

Ursula and E.T.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: protocal for horse that got out on grass????

Lorna <briars@...>
 

It worked too well as stated on the label
and the support from the company was very reassuring.....I'm just saying....
.Not everyone would/will try it, but desperate times call for desperate
measures ......I believe we averted a disaster because of this product!

Laura ,thanks for doing all the typing wrt the ingredients!

I don't want to dissuade you from your belief.
But I *am* concerned about people who may be reading ,and drawing the conclusion that this product will work in this way,thus not making room for some of the successful ways members have found here.Vicki had a great post recently,listing a number of ways,proven over the years to stave off laminitis in situations such as these.
I agree with you that it was a desperate measure.
But I can't agree that it was this product which saved the day.Too many times we credit a product with doing the job,especially when the company is advising us that their product will work.Ask me how I know.
But I have questions,rumbling around in my head.For example,you said this happened at night.At night the sugar levels are lower than during a sunny day.Maybe they were just low enough that they wouldn't have caused trouble anyway. Maybe.
Maybe you had the diet tight enough that this in itself helped avert a problem.Maybe.
I don't ask these questions in order for you to answer,but rather for others reading,who should consider other possibilities before jumping to a conclusion that could jeopradize their horses.

In any event,I'm really glad laminitis was not the end result.

Lorna in Ontario
Support/Moderator
2002


Seeking source of ODTC or Sterett Fog Pellets in Olympia WA

Ursula Euler
 

My cushings gelding has tested to approach high IR risk (G:I ratio 5.11). I have been feeding a combination of BP, local hay and LMF Low carb complete. I think I need to go to a different diet as soon as I can.

I am searching for a source for:
Sterett Fog Pellets or Ontario Dehy Timothy cubes?

Does anyone live in or near Olympia, WA and can tell me a dealer or store that carries or sells them?

Looking at the files for this group, those are the feeds that are most reliably low in harmful sugar. Or, are there some other feeds available that are recommended for IR horses?

Thanks.

Ursula and E.T.


Re: SO CALIF OD TIM BAL CUBES

Carlynne Allbee
 

If you have problems finding them, or need your dealer to order  them, they come from O H Kruse.
 
Contact Gina Anson, Outside Sales (for so. calif) at her cell phone 949-300-5280 or by email at g.anson@...
 
Carlynne Allbee
Lakeside, CA  March 07




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: leftover medications

Carol <calpiner@...>
 

Hi Jen,

I'm very sorry about the loss of your mare. Saying goodbye to our buddies is never easy.

When I lost my Mac in January, I had a number of supplements that I no longer needed. My vet passed the supplements on to a rescue group. You may want to talk to your vet on what options you have.


Carol
Pacific Northwest

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Jennifer" <Pharlap74@...> wrote:

Hello,
To those of you who have lost a Cushings +/or IR friend, can you tell me what you did with any leftover medications. I have 80 1mg pergolide capsules, 480 20mg prednisilone tablets, an unused bottle of Gentocin and an unused bottle of Naxcel along with syringes leftover after the recent loss of my mare. I hate the idea of tossing it all given the expense.

Jen
Exeter, RI
member since 06 or 07


Re: leftover medications

ejm <ejmico@...>
 

Jennifer wrote:
Hello, To those of you who have lost a Cushings +/or IR friend, can you tell me what you did with any leftover medications.
Please accept my sympathies for the loss of a loved one. It's horrible to go through this. What I did was ask my vet if he had any clients that were struggling financially and could use the leftover medicines from my Cushings girl. He did and the lady he gave them to called and thanked me personally. I was so glad I could help her.

Elva
New Mexico
June 2004


Re: Time to add levothyroxine?

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "jrlaur46" <jrlaur46@...> wrote:

Hi All -- I've posted a current summary of my QH mare Manda's labs which includes the last one done a couple weeks ago.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory2/files/Jeanette%20%26%20Manda/
I'm wondering, given the persistence of the insulin/glucose numbers, if it's now time to try adding some levothyroxine to the mix to see whether that will have any effect both on thyroid AND glucose & insulin levels.

If so, (1) what's a reasonable starting dosage for ~1000 lbs BW? I want to start conservatively. And (2) what's the shelf life for Thyro-L? I have an unopened container that I got from my vet 2-3 years ago. Should I discard it & buy fresh or is what I have likely to be fine?
Jeannette - hope we're not too late, but ... I don't have a good answer. I'm hoping Dr. Kellon will have some advice... stay tuned.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com/


Re: leftover medications

Nancy C
 

Jen --

I am so sorry for your loss. It is never an easy time.

If you allow folks to contact you privately, there will be folks who may be on financial need of the meds and would be willing to pay you for shipping and such.

Absent that, I second Amy's suggestion for a rescue.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

140661 - 140680 of 280039