Date   

Re: Balancing the diet and hay testing

shotgunranch <shotgun.ranch@...>
 

Hi there
We are currently buying (& testing) a three week supply of hay at a time from our local feed store.
We can't buy in bulk the way we have in the past(even though we have a small hay barn)
because the feed store owner can't hold a stack until I get results... his supply only lasts a couple of days.
The good thing is that he always buys from the same local grower, so.... so far the mineral profile has been somewhat consistent. It is my guess that this grower always cuts his hay
very early in the morning because the s/s has always been under 9% (knock on wood).

Since they do not deliver we're buying 12 bales at a time. My hubby is 65 years old so throwing hay bales around isn't as easy as it was in the past. We stay about 2 weeks ahead, so the
12 bales we will buy on Monday won't be fed for another 2 weeks.
So, basically I'm testing a new batch every 2-3 weeks, using the Equi-Tech ( I know... not ideal but affordable for the frequent testing we are doing) and I allow for slight inaccuracies
by planning to soak anything over 9% s/s.
It's working out well so far, my black horse is jet black & he starts to fade at about 2-3 weeks if not on balanced minerals. I have 7 analysis so far & have put
together a base mix that I can tweak with every new batch as needed. So far, everything is pretty
consistent except for phosphorus. One stack required about 9 grams of phosphorus to
balance while the next batch required none. I will continue to test my hay because s/s levels are very important for my PSSM horse and IR horse & donkey. I will not risk laminitis at any cost. I came very close to having my IR Morgan come down with laminitis a couple of years ago because I wasn't paying attention to the s/s level in my hay. That story is in link below, halfway down the page:
http://members.cox.net/shotgun.ranch/AboutIR.html

You do what you have to do & sometimes you have to be creative but I will NOT risk my horses by feeding them untested hay.
Just my experience, for what it's worth.
Claire in AZ
Aug 2000

--- In EquineCushings@..., "hoofbeats5" <hoofbeats5@...> wrote:

I understand the need to test the hay in order to balance the diet, but I buy hay about every two weeks and even though I get it from the same dealer, it could be different from the last hay I purchased. ....


Re: A little info on APF

hoofbeats5
 

I am strictly hand walking her and only as far as she wants to go. This morning she was sore again with heat and pulses up again. I'm hoping that will be gone tonight. I called my vet and he is coming back out to do blood glucose but can't get there for almost two weeks. Also, I am ordering a hay corer and testing the hay. As soon as I get that back I would like to have you go over it and help me set up her supplements. How do I go about contacting you for that and what is your fee?

Do you know the NSC of Nutrena Lite Balance? I called the company and they couldn't tell me. They said the reason was that there isn't a standard in the industry for measuring it, but they assured me it is safe for laminitic or IR horses. I am going to change to your emergency diet until I know more from blood work and hay analysis.

I have a barefoot trimmer who is working with us. He works a lot with foundered horses and has good success although he isn't certified. Her rotation is 10% so we have a lot of healing to do.

Thank you again for your group here and your help!
Laura




________________________________
From: drkellon <drkellon@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Fri, June 18, 2010 8:39:13 AM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: A little info on APF




--- In EquineCushings@..., "hoofbeats5" <hoofbeats5@...> wrote:

I found APF on a web search then found it recommended here in the files. She had one dose last night, one this morning (stopped the bute). Tonight she came happily out of her stall and even tried to trot during our walk. I am totally amazed if that stuff works so quickly or even works at all, but I think I'm about to become a believer!

Yes, it often does work that quickly! Stopping the bute probably helped too. The more depressed the horse was to begin with, the more dramatic the response. Adaptogens regulate the cortisol response to stress, pain, etc.

You do have to be careful about letting them do too much on compromised feet. Do you have a good farrier/trimmer to work with you on realigning her hoof capsule?

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: A little info on APF/ now, what is APF? Exercise a founder??

Michael NA
 

Hello Kathleen. I've been reading these posts, hoping some light would be shed on APF. I'm not sure what this is and my browser is really offering problems so google isn't producing good results at this point in time. Also, for the cresty neck and fat deposit part, I know exercise if very important for any horse. My two Arabs are doing well and get lots of exercise, but the founders I'm taking care of, all obese and huge crests and deposits elsewhere (two are not my horses, the one that is has just came into my posession) how is it that you exercise to remove fat deposits when they are not able to walk much at all? My idea of exercise is running and round corral. I can't see attempting that sort of exercise to lower fat deposits when they can't barely walk. That's my question and thankyou. =)

Michael


_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5


WAS: Hay cannot be tested Now: answers and background

Nancy C
 

Hi Shannon

Answers to your questions and more background

Minerals can vary from cut to cut. See Dr Kellon's post from today for a bit more info.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/142254>

Also Linda's post

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/142245>

As to finding a place to store - think about it! You are right, all you need is a corner. The hay will be coming and going at basically the same rate, you'll just have your stash off to one side.

I store my hay in a non-climate controlled barn. I'd say most of us do.

Obviously it's your choice on how you want to spend your money, however Jiaogulan is a primary ingredient in LS. It has been used successfully by many in restoring feet. Many here have started on LS and switched over to jiaogulan. The how and why behind why it works. as well as info on Dr Kellon's trail and report to the Equine Congress are here:

Files > Jiaogulan, Nitric Oxide Support, AAKG & Supps

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/Jiaogulan%2C%20Nitric%20Oxide%20Support%2C%20AAKG%20%26%20Supps/>


I initially used LS. Switched to j-herb and had exactly the kind of growth you report. He was less foot sore and had much better spirits. At pennies a day. Got better results actually, and used the money saved elsewhere. Just want you to know jiaogulan is not some herb that got pulled out of thin air. Check the background posted above.

I am not surprised about the exer-lite being well accepted as it has dextrose and artificial flavors. With time, 99.9 percent of the horses here develop a salt hunger that is often missing because they have not gotten enough and eat up the table salt just fine.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

From: "Shannon" <skgserenity@...>
I checked storage units nearby, and they are upwards of $50/mth (not climate >controlled, either). 90 days of hay for my 2 horses would not be such a huge amount in >my mind, but I'll trust your math, LOL. I will ask again.

Thing is - if I get a core sample from the new provider, how many cuts is it good for?


Seeking source of ODTC or Sterett Fog Pellets in Olympia WA

Carlynne Allbee
 

To find out who carries ODTC:   In Southern Calif, they are distributed by O H Kruse and I just posted the contact info.   You don't order them thru Kruse, but they can help you with the store you are buying from.
 
So I called Gina, our rep at O H Kruse and she said that up in Olympia WA, your store would be getting them thru Triple Crown.  Again, you don't buy from Triple Crown, but your store does.
 
She said that Triple Crown has a really good website and is really "on the spot" to make sure their product is out there.  That if you are having trouble, call Triple Crown, and they can help you find a store, help your store carry the product, etc.
 
Again, this is for the ODTC - cubes.
 
Carlynne Allbee
March 07  Lakeside, CA


Protocal for got out on grass - now in the files

Nancy C
 

Just put the a copy of Vicki's message along with Dr Kellon's from today in a folder called Emergency Protocols.

It's here and can be downloaded to your computer for future reference.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/Emergency%20Protocols/>

Just a reminder we have a TABLE OF CONTENTS to help negotiate the EC library. If you are trying to find something, go to the TOC first. If you can't find it, let us know and we'll point you.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/%201%20A%20%20Table%20of%20Contents/>

The TABLE OF CONTENTS is downloadable, searchable and update regularly by our esteemed archivist LeeAnne. Check out her Success Story here

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/%201%20EC%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories%21%21/>

Thanks Vicki, Dr Kellon and LeeAnne.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/


New file uploaded to EquineCushings

EquineCushings@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the EquineCushings
group.

File : /Emergency Protocols/Protocol for horse that got out on grass.pdf
Uploaded by : goddess03259 <threecatfarm@...>
Description :

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/Emergency%20Protocols/Protocol%20for%20horse%20that%20got%20out%20on%20grass.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/forms/general.htmlfiles

Regards,

goddess03259 <threecatfarm@...>


Re: Good mineral source?

Paul & Valerie Snyder
 

Kathleen,
I'll get it from the back of the bag for you. It's hard to find on their website, but I did once! When I balanced the minerals using the hay balancing sheet from the group it seemed that the Grostrong covered the lack.
I'm attempting to get: ( I'm actually getting more with the addition of Grostrong, but the ratios seem good) (Less Grostrong?)
100mg copper
400mg zinc
My hay had less than that.
Hay had 63.6 mg copper for 20 pounds hay
154mg zinc for 20 pounds hay
and only 1 gm sodium (!) for 20 pounds hay

Grostrong Minerals from ADM Alliance (formerly Moormans?)
522 mg Zinc for two oz.. Grostrong
163.6 mg Copper for two oz. Grostrong
17.2 gm Sodium for two oz. Grostrong
The other minerals all seemed good in the hay.
Of course, this is what I calculated using the balancing sheet and the back of the Grostrong bag.
The actual % and ppm of the minerals are on the bag back and as soon as I can figure out how to scan and send it, I will.
I will say though that it has:
Copper 3,600 ppm
Zinc 11,500 ppm
Salt 26-31% ( I think I tried to separate the sodium out when I did my own figuring)
Thank you for any input.
Valerie
Navarre FL
Sept. 2009


Re: Balancing the diet and hay testing

Linda Rollins <lindarollins38@...>
 

Hi "Hoofbeats,"
I see that Dr. Kellon has answered this question for you, and now I would like to sent you the "official greeting!"

Welcome to the group. We ask that you set aside some time to read the files that were sent to you when you joined. There is a ton of information in there, and probably answers to a lot of your questions!

This group's philosophy is DDTE.

1.Diagnosis - Diagnosis through blood work (ACTH, insulin and glucose) DO NOT DO THE DEX SUPPRESSION TEST. It can push these horses right over the edge.

2. Diet - Diet is through hay testing and balancing your hay with the minerals it is lacking. Testing also determines the sugar and starch content of your hay. We are shooting for a low sugar/starch grass hay based diet. You can't tell by looking at a hay if it is *poor quality,* *hot*or low sugar/starch. You need to test. We recommend sending hay yo Equi-Anlytical No green pasture. No grains. Once you know what you are feeding the horse by hay analysis, then you balance the diet with minerals specific to your horse and your hay. Bagged, pre-made products rarely fill the bill. Stop whatever supplements you are giving until you know for sure what your hay is lacking. We recommend sending hay samples to http://www.equi-analytical.com and get the "trainer" package. Then, we can figure out if your hay is "safe" and what it is lacking in minerals.


3. Trim - a low heel, short toe trim. If the horse is laminitic, many find that barefoot in boots can make the horse much more comfortable than shod.

4. Exercise - ONLY if possible. Exercise can be hand walking too!

Please fill out a case history at our sister group, if you haven't already.We can get the big picture of what's going on with your horse and then help you to the best of our abilities.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3

You will have to join but it takes no time to gain access. Then, when you post questions, include the link so it's easy to take a quick look.
We know these are stressful times, and we remind all new members to read thoroughly and breathe deeply. We are here to help.

Linda

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Linda in MA, Peanut in CT - 09.07


Re: A little info on APF

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., Laura Lindsey <hoofbeats5@...> wrote:

Hi Sue,
My mare is an extremely easy keeper. I have had her since she was 6 months old and at around 2 she started to get overweight, very cresty neck, fat pads on either side of her tail, huge fat behind the shoulder. She was on timothy hay, Nutrena Safe Choice, and pasture. I changed Safe Choice to a handfull of alfalfa pellets to carry supplements, cut hay down and pasture time. Her feet started to deteriorate (chip, cracks) so I decided my supplements must not be right. Anyhow, I heard about Nutrena Lite Balance for IR and Cushings so I put her on that hoping it would help. Funny thing is I had the vet out the week before she foundered to check her and see what he thought about IR. At that time he wasn't too concerned about blood work, he just said to try to control her sugars (soak hay etc. The next week he came out and gave spring shots. She foundered the following day. I think she already had a mild laminitis and the shots pushed her over the edge.
I'm leaving the entire paragraph above because this is a classic story that we've heard hundreds, possibly thousands of times. A young horse develops IR, a feed blend (Nutrena Safe Choice/Lite Balance) is supposed to help (aka, the "fix"), the vet isn't concerned about blood work and something finally pushes them over the edge. BTW, I'm not mocking or disparaging you or your care - we've all been there, done that and that's why it's so frustrating. First, because the Nutrena Products aren't safe no matter how you spin the product; second, because the vet doesn't understand the mechanism (high insulin); and third, because it progressed to laminitis. If you don't mind, I have a few suggestions that might help you progress to the next level.

She has lost about 200 lbs. since she foundered as I've been soaking hay and she get Zero grass. The grass was the problem, but she still has the cresty neck and fat behind her shoulders. I think I am going to have the vet out for glucose testing anyhow but he said it requires a special tube and timing so we have to get that set up with our work schedule.
1. Diagnosis. She's clearly IR and you don't need the glucose test that you're describing here. Glucose is normal in IR. What you need is glucose and insulin from a single blood draw. Don't fast. If she's still got the cresty neck and fat behind her shoulders, I'd bet the farm that her insulin is still elevated. Save your money on the glucose test with multiple blood draws because it will not inform you.

2. Diet. You're soaking hay - that might not be necessary. A hay analysis will inform you of the ESC + starch content of the hay and you may find that you don't have to soak. The analysis will also inform you as to what supplements need to be added which will help her chipping feet, IR and get her on a solid nutritional foundation so that she can cope better with her IR. See Dr. Kellon's message yesterday about why that's important.

3. Mechanism behind the laminitis. This is borderline nit-picky, but I want to drive this point home. In insulin resistance, elevated insulin triggers laminitis. Anything that causes further elevation of insulin like forage or feed that causes a glycemic spike, fevers, apparently vaccination as in your case, will worsen the condition. Grass, vaccines, etc. are not bad things for horse that doesn't have hyperinsulinemia. Elevated insulin (hyperinsulinemia = IR) is a bad thing. It's really all about getting insulin under control and that should be the focus. Of course, the way to do that is to control what goes in their mouth and I know it sounds like I'm going in circles here, but it changes your mindset when you see those fat pads and crest and you're thinking, "I need to get insulin down." The best way to do that is exercise, exercise, exercise and keeping sugar/starch below 10%. Balancing the mineral portion of the diet is also key to recovery.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com/


Re: Help with Vitamins/Minerals when Hay cannot be tested

Nancy C
 

From: "Shannon" <skgserenity@...>
Date: June 18, 2010 1:16:51 AM EDT
To: EquineCushings@...
Subject: Re: Help with Vitamins/Minerals when Hay cannot be tested


This response DID get missed by me. Thank you for reposting it.

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Nancy" <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

Hi Shannon
Good for you for speaking up with your friend/BO. Timothy is good.
Hoping it will be good quality timothy. Crazy weather has made the hay crops vary considerably even in the same location. One time the delivery included BLACK hay (aka, pure mold), which of course was turned away.


Instead of purchasing your own hay, have you been able to talk with your barn owners >>- they are friends, right?- about putting some aside from ONE shipment for you?
Must be a really large property with several out buildings. Or just one corner of the hay >>storage area or loft, marked with orange tape.
Ah yes - we discussed this, and there is a problem with space already for what they have (I don't think they initially planned on @120 horses. The property is large, quite, but most of it is barns, arenas, turnouts and trails. Parts of it are in flood zones. Their buildings are usually packed to the absolute limit. Even on their personal property across the street. I believe they'd do it if they had the space, but they have stated there is no space available. I checked storage units nearby, and they are upwards of $50/mth (not climate controlled, either). 90 days of hay for my 2 horses would not be such a huge amount in my mind, but I'll trust your math, LOL. I will ask again.

Thing is - if I get a core sample from the new provider, how many cuts is it good for?


You can also cut your expenses by dropping the lamina saver - an expensive product >>which Horse Journal trials showed needs to be used at twice the recommended amount >>to be affective.
This is TRUE - but it was part of the program that pulled Rafiq through growing an entire new hoof in less than 9 mths. There is this formula that worked for him, I'm trying to stick as close to it as possible.

Exer-Lyte is something I have given him (and added to Majik b/c she will consume a salt block in a day sometimes!) b/c he dehydrated and had a very severe colic one day several weeks ago. Not caught in time, it very well could have been fatal. I had been using table salt, I upped it to the Exer-Lyte which is a bit more of a booster and he's been drinking and licking the salt blocks like crazy now. This is basically as easy to give as table salt, but they took little interest in the table salt.

Thank you for the further input, Nancy!

Shannon, Rafiq and Majik
June 2009 / Houston


Re: Nosebleeds

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Vitamin K supplements usually come with vitamin C, important for capillary health:

http://www.ka-hi.com/equine-complete.php#c-k

The odds of this fixing the problem are pretty slim, but it won't hurt him. Some things would be fixable (e.g.leaking prominent vessels, fungal infection), others not, but it's worth taking a look so that you know what's going on and what to expect.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Balancing the diet and hay testing

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "hoofbeats5" <hoofbeats5@...> wrote:
Do I need to test each new load? I buy about 20 to 30 bales at a time. Will the minerals be basically the same since the same farm grew all of the hay?

Talk to your dealer. If the hay is all coming from the same farm, there's an excellent chance the minerals will be very similar. If the grower is consistent in how the fields are managed, test a representative sampling from the second cutting. Once a year should be fine.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: A little info on APF

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "hoofbeats5" <hoofbeats5@...> wrote:

I found APF on a web search then found it recommended here in the files. She had one dose last night, one this morning (stopped the bute). Tonight she came happily out of her stall and even tried to trot during our walk. I am totally amazed if that stuff works so quickly or even works at all, but I think I'm about to become a believer!

Yes, it often does work that quickly! Stopping the bute probably helped too. The more depressed the horse was to begin with, the more dramatic the response. Adaptogens regulate the cortisol response to stress, pain, etc.

You do have to be careful about letting them do too much on compromised feet. Do you have a good farrier/trimmer to work with you on realigning her hoof capsule?

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Seeking source of ODTC or Sterett Fog Pellets in Olympia WA

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "wolf1ette" <wolf1ette@...> wrote:

My cushings gelding has tested to approach high IR risk (G:I ratio 5.11). I have been feeding a combination of BP, local hay and LMF Low carb complete. I think I need to go to a different diet as soon as I can.

I am searching for a source for:
Sterett Fog Pellets or Ontario Dehy Timothy cubes?
The pellets are being made by Mid Valley Milling. They have a dealer locator on the web site:

http://midvalleymillinghaypellets.com/find-pellet-dealer

They're the low NSC pelleted hay with balancing minerals, bottom of this page:

http://midvalleymillinghaypellets.com/product-lineup/hay-pellets

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Time to add levothyroxine?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "jrlaur46" <jrlaur46@> wrote:

Hi All -- I've posted a current summary of my QH mare Manda's labs which includes the last one done a couple weeks ago.
Yes, you could add thyroid supplementation but you'll need fresh drug. 2 to 3 years is too long. Are her cycles still a problem? If so, contact me or ask Lisa to. There have been some developments in treatment of these mares.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: protocal for horse that got out on grass????

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Laura Matthews" <lauratmatt@...> wrote:
Apparently there is a close relationship with the adaptogens that are in APF
Pro and the same ingredients that are in the MMP STOP. I do know that it
worked wonderfully from my close call. My horse licked it out of the bowl
like cake batter and there was no need to syringe it in.
I don't believe this is snake oil. It worked too well as stated on the label
and the support from the company was very reassuring.....I'm just saying....
.Not everyone would/will try it, but desperate times call for desperate
measures ......I believe we averted a disaster because of this product!
Hi Laura,

It's wonderful that Boo didn't have any trouble after his grazing, but I wouldn't be so sure this product is why. We've had many experiences with "break outs" on the list over the years, and the vast majority of horses don't have any serious consequences if they have been carefully managed and controlled before the grass episode happened.

Many grasses have reached a mature growth stage by this time of year, especially in early growth areas such as yours. They can still be dangerous, but not as much as when in very early growth stages. Many factors, yet to be identified, determine whether or not an individual horse is pushed over the edge. During the period of the Va Polytechnic field study, 54 ponies were identified as being at risk/having had laminitis in the past, yet only 13 got laminitic that spring.

Many factors go into overall risk of laminitis if an IR horse gets access to grass, but if we arbitrarily put a low overall risk on it, lets say 10% chance, that's still too great a risk for most owners to take, especially if they have already seen first hand the devastation that laminitis causes. On the other hand, if you're selling a supplement that is supposed to prevent laminitis and let the horse graze, those numbers work in your favor.

The only thing proven to prevent laminitis after exposure to a trigger is icing the feet. Proven is the key word here. To prove something works, you have to set up conditions where untreated horses will reliably develop laminitis then show the product or drug prevented it in the ones that were treated.

As for being like APF, "it's in there" doesn't cut it. Just like with drugs, dosage is important. The difference between dried herb and herbal extract is also extremely important. There are many herbs with documented anti-inflammatory properties but they have to be fed in very large amounts to be effective unless the active ingredients have been concentrated in an extract. Without full disclosure, there's no way to determine how potent, or not, a product will be.

It's also very risky to feed something when you don't know all the ingredients. We've seen complete ingredient lists from several products from that supplier which turned out to contain herbs contraindicated for an IR or Cushing's horse, a pain masking ingredient, even an herb prohibited by the FDA. Again, dose would help determine risk but that information is not forthcoming.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Nosebleeds

litewriterrs
 

My now-confirmed Cushings/IR 24yo TB has been getting nosebleeds since last fall. Had him tested a few weeks ago (still waiting to get a copy -- poor vet is alone in his practice, and of course the day he came out for my other critters, his printer failed) and both the Cushings test and the IR test came back positive. When I asked about the nosebleeds, my vet said that short of scoping him, there was no way to know the cause, and even knowing, might not be treatable. From other things I've read, I can understand that. He suggested Vit. K, to keep the amount down. So far, although he spreads it all over when it no doubt tickles, the amount of blood seems to be fairly small maybe 1/4 of a cup. That is, except when he came back from testing. I found a puddle then that may have been about 2 cups. He was very stressed by being away from home, even though I took his buddy along too (they got their spring shots while there, so it wasn't a waste.) Vet and I agree that this extra flow was probably stress-induced.
Does this have any connection to Cushings, or is it something else? Anyone know of a good source for Vitamin K for equines? I'll add test results to files once I get them.
Randi & Paulie, Wyoming, Feb 2010.


Re: Ontario balance cubes amounts?

 

Timmi,

I use Triple Crown Lite to help get supplements down for a few of my horses. A quart seems like a lot of TCL. It is designed to only feed from 2 to 4 lbs./day and no more than 4. I feed about 1/2 lb. mixed with beet pulp and supplements, and 1/2 pound measures out to be about 1/3 of a 13 oz. coffee can. It is very dense. Have you actually weighed the amount you are feeding of both the cubes and the TCL?

IMO, Wellsolve is overpriced and has way too much iron in it. I would have to add even more copper and zinc to my supplements to make up for the high iron in the Wellsolve.

Carol
Dayton, Ohio
August 2007

--- In EquineCushings@..., timfantim@... wrote:

My mare in lock down due to foundering in 12 x 24 ft. stall is getting less
than a qt. of TCL a.m./p.m. until I switch, on vet's recommendation, to
WellSolve with all appropriate meds. Right now I'm giving her two 3 quart
scoops of the hay cubes, soaked, and 1 flake of hay per feed, a.m./p.m. Am I
feeding too much, too little of
the cubes?

Thank you.

Timmi in MD
0909





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: A little info on APF

hoofbeats5
 

Hi Sue,
My mare is an extremely easy keeper. I have had her since she was 6 months old and at around 2 she started to get overweight, very cresty neck, fat pads on either side of her tail, huge fat behind the shoulder. She was on timothy hay, Nutrena Safe Choice, and pasture. I changed Safe Choice to a handfull of alfalfa pellets to carry supplements, cut hay down and pasture time. Her feet started to deteriorate (chip, cracks) so I decided my supplements must not be right. Anyhow, I heard about Nutrena Lite Balance for IR and Cushings so I put her on that hoping it would help. Funny thing is I had the vet out the week before she foundered to check her and see what he thought about IR. At that time he wasn't too concerned about blood work, he just said to try to control her sugars (soak hay etc) . The next week he came out and gave spring shots. She foundered the following day. I think she already had a mild laminitis and the shots pushed her over the
edge. She has lost about 200 lbs. since she foundered as I've been soaking hay and she get Zero grass. The grass was the problem, but she still has the cresty neck and fat behind her shoulders. I think I am going to have the vet out for glucose testing anyhow but he said it requires a special tube and timing so we have to get that set up with our work schedule. I hope your horse is doing OK.
Laura




________________________________
From: sue wolf <wolffarm4@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Fri, June 18, 2010 12:03:31 AM
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] A little info on APF


Hello,
I have a horse that the vet thinks she has IR. but shes on different things, does your horse have a crusty neck and fatty patches. its hard to explain. but why does your vet think your horse IR? mine foundered at 18% and on only hay no grass. please let me know.
thanks sue

--- On Thu, 6/17/10, hoofbeats5 <hoofbeats5@...> wrote:

From: hoofbeats5 <hoofbeats5@...>
Subject: [EquineCushings] A little info on APF
To: EquineCushings@...
Date: Thursday, June 17, 2010, 7:44 PM



Hi all, I've only posted a couple of times..mostly read and learn from everyone's posts. I just want to share this and I may be jumping the gun a bit, but here goes. My mare foundered two months ago. The vet thinks it's probably IR, but wasn't all that interested in blood work. He put her on Thyroid, bute, and acepromazine, soaked hay and low starch diet. She hasn't been able to go off the bute even in two months and walk without pain. Her feet are too unstable (10 degree rotation) to put her in a dirt paddock so she stays in a deeply bedded stall and is hand walked when she is willing. I have been so frustrated and worried about her. I found APF on a web search then found it recommended here in the files. She had one dose last night, one this morning (stopped the bute). Tonight she came happily out of her stall and even tried to trot during our walk. I am totally amazed if that stuff works so quickly or even works at all, but I think
I'm about to become a believer! Just want to say thanks to whoever created this group...Also put my Cushings mare on it.

It's true we will try anything to help our horses when laminitis happens. I would try snake oil at 200.00 an ounce if someone said it would help! This group is helping me to make the right choices and I sure appreciate it.

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