Date   

Help with some questions

horseegall2002
 

Last year when I started my horse on ODTs and the minerals etc. I managed to get 150 lbs off of him. Now he starting to put the weight back on, I have cut the amount of soy hulls, or ODT, or BP to mix the supplements in to see if that helps. We do some form of work, not hard, every day for 1 or more.

I have been lurking on the site and don't see or may have missed, articles on some of my questions.

My questions are:
1. Has anyone had the problem arise with the weight gain and feed is cut back and is this the sign of Cushings?
2. Does anyone have an IR horse boarded elsewhere, where the hay
brought in constantly changes and so the supplements I am working or based on last years hay. I cannot afford to pay $50 every month to have a new analysis done. Any ideas out there?
3. Has anyone used Platinum Performance on IR horses with any results as it does list the same ingredients I am feeding my horse now.
4. What if any results, are there on feeding FORCO feed, prebiotic to IR horses? I have tried this with my boy and gave him 1 oz and wanted to increase it and as soon as I did, he broke out in hives. Now whether it is an allergic reaction or possibly a sign of detoxifying, can't say.

Hopefully some others have had the same questions or problems arise and what to do. Thank
Donna - Wonder Lake, Il - 9/09


Chantilly - maggots - Dr. Kellon

Karen <karen@...>
 

It has been several weeks since the lst maggot treatment. She has a tiny bit of drainage every day on her animalintex pad. Not smelly and just a very slight color to it. She still has a small hole that maybe the maggots could navigate. We don't want to make it any bigger before the RLP.
Head vet here wants us to keep the hole open forever to allow any drainage that may happen. Any thoughts on this.
Karen
Princess Tilly, Tommi and Koko
3-2005 Bend,Ore


Re: Abscess - Bess

pecanrancher
 

One would have to appreciate the passion of the website below. No doubt some merit from such an austere and experienced source.

In our less austere approach and experience, we have humbly found that typically after a few soaks most problems take care of themselves and when needing to soak for a longer period, the horse was spared the intrusion into their sole and the owner a tremendous amount of work and worry. Generally the issues surfaces for a few light cuts or it bubbles out the top when appropriate. We have not seen a hoof soften to the point of what I would perceive to be less than that needed to support a horse and actually have not seen it soften to any noticeable degree at all. Must be interesting.

Of course there may be situations we do not know of where it is warranted to dig into a hoof with the associated risks, worry, work, and complications and we would not wish to dissuade someone who is confident in need of such dramatic and traumatic action. We have seen the digging happen and mourned the horse and owner.

No doubt one's history plays apart in the approach.

Jon
Texas
Jan 08



________________________________
From: JMF <jane@...>

(after reading about too much soaking on http://www.equipodi atry.com/ footsoak. htm. I am hoping beyond all hope that I don't have to do that anymore!

Jane and Miss Kitty
NE MS
10/09


New vet to do blood work Question for Dr. K

jean mullen
 

Just want to be clear- Do I still give the pergolide, thyro-L, APF and other sups(flax,salt,forco,gueissence)on the day of the blood draw(ACTH,insulin & glucose). He gets these with am and pm meal which is mainly some soaked ODTBC and a little carb guard. I remember to feed hay as normal, and keep the routine normal.I searched but couldn't find the answer on the meds and sups. I still don't know what time of day he will get there. The vet is due out Thursday 3/18. Thanks for any advise. I want this to be a good sample. My last one wasn't.
Jean and Catchme in MD
2006???


Re: Chantilly-Distal Limb Perfusion-Dr. Kellon-maggots

Karen <karen@...>
 

Dr. Kellon

It has been several weeks since we did the last maggot treatment. She still has drainage - note smelly, just a very light color. I am wondering if we should do another maggot treatment just before the RLP. What do you think?
She still has a small hole in her toe that we could put the maggots in. The one draw back that I can see is we do not want to make the hole any bigger. Do not want the antibiotics to run out of a big hole.
Karen
Princess Tilly, Tommi and Koko
3-2005 BEnd,Oregon

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Karen" <karen@...> wrote:

Thanks Linda

It worked.
Karen

Sorry monitors for the short message. Just wanted Linda know she helped me.
Karen



I believe you can register but register as a student.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Chantilly-Distal Limb Perfusion-Dr. Kellon

Karen <karen@...>
 

Thanks Linda

It worked.
Karen

Sorry monitors for the short message. Just wanted Linda know she helped me.
Karen


I believe you can register but register as a student.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Abscess - Bess

JMF <jane@...>
 

My horse Miss Kitty did much the same thing. However her sole is very thick and the abscess was low so after 2+ weeks of awful lameness, I had the vet dig for gold (black gold, for sure). After he drained the bugger, I made a duck tape/guaze bandaid for her sole and epson soaked/iodined it 2x a day for an additional 10 days. Then used a Animalintex pad 2 days (with boot). Then just cleaned and iodined the hole for five more days. (after reading about too much soaking on http://www.equipodiatry.com/footsoak.htm. I am hoping beyond all hope that I don't have to do that anymore!

Jane and Miss Kitty
NE MS
10/09


Re: Chantilly-Distal Limb Perfusion-Dr. Kellon

Karen <karen@...>
 

Just got my estimate and all I notice on it is Gentocin Injectible 100ml bottle.
Karen




I cannot get the sight you suggested I read. It states that you have to be a Doctor to get on.
Can you somehow provide me with the notes. I will send it to the vet, but not sure he will read it.
1
.
!



Feb 2001


Re: Chantilly-Distal Limb Perfusion-Dr. Kellon

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 

I cannot get the sight you suggested I read.
Karen -

I believe you can register but register as a student.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Chantilly-Distal Limb Perfusion-Dr. Kellon

Karen <karen@...>
 

I cannot get the sight you suggested I read. It states that you have to be a Doctor to get on.
Can you somehow provide me with the notes. I will send it to the vet, but not sure he will read it.
Karen
.

That's good news! RLP *can* kill bone infections too. The reason the tourniquet is kept on for 30 minutes is to keep the tissue pressure high, forcing the antibiotic even into areas with poor blood supply, like dead bone. There will also be residual effect, much longer than with oral or intravenous antibiotics.

Do you know if they will just use an antibiotic, or are they combining it with 20% DMSO?

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/AAEP/2004/Cimetti/chapter.asp?LA=1
.
!

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Chantilly-Distal Limb Perfusion

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Karen" <karen@...> wrote:

We have an appointment for the procedure next Monday even though the Head Vet says I am wasting my money. A couple other vets that also work with Tilly have said they think it is worth a shot so I am going with them. I know it will not kill the infection on her bone.
The vet says the second the procedure is done and the tourniquet is released the bacteria will start flowing into her feet again. That is depressing.
That's good news! RLP *can* kill bone infections too. The reason the tourniquet is kept on for 30 minutes is to keep the tissue pressure high, forcing the antibiotic even into areas with poor blood supply, like dead bone. There will also be residual effect, much longer than with oral or intravenous antibiotics.

Do you know if they will just use an antibiotic, or are they combining it with 20% DMSO?

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/AAEP/2004/Cimetti/chapter.asp?LA=1

Would there be an advantage to giving her a high dose or a long term dose of antibiotic to help clear the bacteria in her blood.

RLP is usually combined with systemic antibiotics. She shouldn't have any bacteria in her blood though. Bacteria won't gain access to the tissues again either, as long as they are healthy. The maggots are an important part of her treatment, getting rid of the dead tissue. RLP then blasts any remaining infection. You can also use something like cow mastitis antibiotics on packing for open areas until they fill in.

The fact it has been going on so long is the worst aspect here - but the only way to know if you can stop it is to try!

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: NRC Minimum Requirements vs. Optimum

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "pposey09" <pposey@...> wrote:

Hi all,
I am feeding my horses the minimum requirements to function in maintenance.

Why are we not feeding optimum requirements? Are optimum requirements published?
Optimums aren't known - and very few people look for them! Minimums are set by balance studies, which strive to find the level that keeps the horse from losing more mineral (in manure, urine) than is being taken in. To get optimal, you would have to study a key biochemical function of the mineral. For example, a key antioxidant system in the body involves the enzyme glutathione peroxidase (contains 4 selenium ions) and glutathione, which accepts oxygen free radicals. In humans, taking higher than minimum doses of selenium increases levels of glutathione until a ceiling is reached and higher doses have no further effect. That ceiling dose would be optimal. Glutathione production requires the amino acid glutamine. Similarly, glutathione levels will rise until a ceiling is reached.

Requirements for the major minerals are at least based on building body tissues for young animals, but then revert to minimums based on balance studies. I shoot for 150 to 200% of minimums for all minerals.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: 2nd request - Amino Acid Chelates vs. Poly's

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "pposey09" <pposey@...> wrote:

Here's a post that addresses what is said in the NRC:
<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/122372>
Studies that have compared the absorption of chelates to inorganic minerals have found no differences in adult horses. This is most likely because horses have efficient absorption of minerals from their large bowel as well as the small bowel. The poly minerals are inorganics (sulfates) wrapped with a polysaccharide coating. They are liberated close to the intestinal lining by digestion of their coating. This helps protect minerals like copper which are poorly soluble in the small intestine. I prefer Poly Zn for people mixing their own minerals because it's easier to measure accurately, but otherwise use zinc sulfate.

In addition to cost considerations, chelates are not distributed evenly throughout the body. They end up in higher concentrations in tissues that have high levels of whichever amino acid they are chelated to. Also, one big reason for balancing in the first place is to give all minerals a chance for absorption that is in proportion to their required levels. If you use chelated minerals, that effect is lost.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Chantilly-Distal Limb Perfusion

Karen <karen@...>
 

We have an appointment for the procedure next Monday even though the Head Vet says I am wasting my money. A couple other vets that also work with Tilly have said they think it is worth a shot so I am going with them. I know it will not kill the infection on her bone.
The vet says the second the procedure is done and the tourniquet is released the bacteria will start flowing into her feet again. That is depressing. He suggested keeping her toes open so she has an opening for the fluid that develops to get out. The only thing I hate about this is she will always have to have her feet wrapped and protected and in boots, but we have been doing this for years so ok we will continue .
I had a thought last night while trying to sleep. Would there be an advantage to giving her a high dose or a long term dose of antibiotic to help clear the bacteria in her blood. Someone suggested using Trimethoprim Sulfa. Any thoughts are welcome.
Karen
Princess Tilly, Tommi and Koko
3-2005 Bend,Ore


Re: APF alternative Dr. Kellon please

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "tink92065" <tink92065@...> wrote:

Are these herbs safe for long term use ? If my memory serves me right Siberian Ginseng is not. Something about the way APF extracts the whatever that makes it safe for long term use.
Extracts are actually more potent than the powdered dried herb. However, all the side effects you mentioned are linked to true ginsengs. Siberian ginseng (Eleuthrococcus) is not a ginseng.

Here's a good monograph on Eleuthrococcus:

<http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:Hg3Ll-ip7X4J:scholar.google.com/+Eleutherococcus&hl=en&as_sdt=800000000001>

and this describes the type of effects we are after with APF/adaptogens:

Curr Clin Pharmacol. 2009 Sep;4(3):198-219. Epub 2009 Sep 1.
Evidence-based efficacy of adaptogens in fatigue, and molecular mechanisms related to their stress-protective activity.

Panossian A, Wikman G.

Swedish Herbal Institute Research and Development, Spårvägen 2, SE-43296 Askloster, Sweden. alexander.panossian@...

The aim of this review article is to assess the level of scientific evidence presented by clinical trials of adaptogens in fatigue, and to provide a rationale at the molecular level for verified effects. Strong scientific evidence is available for Rhodiola rosea SHR-5 extract, which improved attention, cognitive function and mental performance in fatigue and in chronic fatigue syndrome. Good scientific evidence has been documented in trails in which Schisandra chinensis and Eleutherococcus senticosus increased endurance and mental performance in patients with mild fatigue and weakness. Based on their efficacy in clinical studies, adaptogens can be defined as a pharmacological group of herbal preparations that increase tolerance to mental exhaustion and enhance attention and mental endurance in situations of decreased performance. The beneficial stress-protective effect of adaptogens is related to regulation of homeostasis via several mechanisms of action associated with the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis and the control of key mediators of stress response such as molecular chaperons (e.g. Hsp70), stress-activated c-Jun N-terminal protein kinase (JNK1), Forkhead Box O transcription factor DAF-16, cortisol and nitric oxide (NO). The key point of action of phytoadaptogens appears to be their up-regulating and stress-mimetic effects on the "stress-sensor" protein Hsp70, which plays an important role in cell survival and apoptosis. Hsp70 inhibits the expression of NO synthase II gene and interacts with glucocorticoid receptors directly and via the JNK pathway, thus affecting the levels of circulating cortisol and NO. Prevention of stress-induced increase in NO, and the associated decrease in ATP production, results in increased performance and endurance. Adaptogen-induced up-regulation of Hsp70 triggers stress-induced JNK-1 and DAF-16-mediated pathways regulating the resistance to stress and resulting in enhanced mental and physical performance and, possibly, increased longevity.
=============================

Safety in general isn't usually about long term use as much as it is dose, individual variations (the link describes this well) and pre-existing medical conditions. For example, the true ginsengs, especially Asian, can cause hypertension depending on dose and the user's health when they take it. This will happen with the first dose though. It's not a long term consequence, although the risk of secondary consequences from the hypertension, like renal or cardiac failure, are long term reactions.

An adverse event that can develop with any herb is sensitivity reactions such as rash, hives or wheezing.

The longest I have had a horse on APF is around 6 months. Many people have used it every year during the competition season of a similar length, or longer, but don't give it during rests. Whether constant use is a problem or not, I just don't know. The breaks in supplementation are partially financial and partially because resistance to the effects does develop, probably as a result of the liver ramping up metabolizing enzyme systems.

Extracts like APF draw out and concentrate the bioactive chemicals/drugs in the raw herb. This eliminates or reduces effects from poor digestion related to things like stomach acid suppression or rapid intestinal transport. Other than that, to duplicate the effects of APF with dried herb you would need to know the relative proportions of the herbs in the product, the strength of the extract (how the dose would compare in terms of dried herb) and would have to have the same source of herb. We don't know any of that.

That said, using 10 to 15 grams of each (about what a tablespoon probably weighs) is a reasonable place to start.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: selenium - what's up with this?

Linda Peccie
 

Hi, Marie

"All sources" = everything including hay, water, supplements, treats, grazing. Linda in NC-2002

Are you refering to tested levels in hay, as "all sources"?


I believe Dr Kellon suggested toxicity levels are much higher than 6mg
but you have to be super careful to add up all sources before actually
adding Se. Linda in NC-2002


APF alternative Dr. Kellon please

Monique Warren
 

I would LOVE to find a less expensive alternative ! APF about breaks the bank !

Are these herbs safe for long term use ? If my memory serves me right Siberian Ginseng is not. Something about the way APF extracts the whatever that makes it safe for long term use.

Siberian ginseng is LIKELY SAFE for most adults when used short-term. While side effects are rare, some people can have drowsiness, changes in heart rhythm, sadness, anxiety, muscle spasms, and other side effects. In high doses, increased blood pressure might occur.

Hormone-sensitive conditions such as breast cancer, uterine cancer, ovarian cancer, endometriosis, or uterine fibroids: Siberian ginseng might act like estrogen. If you have any condition that might be made worse by exposure to estrogen, don't use Siberian ginseng.

Diabetes: Siberian ginseng can affect blood sugar levels. Monitor your blood sugar carefully if you take Siberian ginseng and have diabetes.

Mental conditions such as mania or schizophrenia: Siberian ginseng might make these conditions worse. Use with caution.

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-985-Siberian+Ginseng+GINSENG,+SIBERIAN.aspx?activeIngredientId=985&activeIngredientName=Siberian+Ginseng+(GINSENG%2C+SIBERIAN)&source=2

Anyone else ?

Monique
San Diego
2007


Beet Pulp Price Reduction?(gasp)

emjewelry <emjewelry@...>
 

I started buying BP pellets about 15 years ago in Canada. They always had molasses and I just fed it instead of grain back then. The price crept up and up over the year from $5 a 55# (25 kg) to now just under $12. This is about 35 miles away in Manitoba.

Stateside here in North Dakota I have to travel 90+ miles to get plain. Fed it for about 4-5 years but quit that supplier when it went from $9.95, 12.95 to $16.95 for a 40# bag of shreds. The excuse about 21 months ago was the price of fuel. Well guess what - it went up when diesel was $4 a gallon - but never dropped dime the last nearly 2 years when the price of fuel dropped!

I switched back to my Canadian supplier - almost half the price, 1/3 the distance to drive and I don't care if it is pellets with molasses - I soak and rinse anyhow. I have tested it and it will run 9-12% sugar WITH the molasses and I have tested PLAIN shred to have 12-18%.

If plain could guarantee me 5% or less sugar I might spend more - but not when the sugar levels are so variable.

I might have to make a few phone calls this week and inquire if prices have changed. I only feed a couple pounds a day so it lasts me quite awhile.

Melanie
in slow to melt ND



I've been paying around $12.00 for a bag around here. Used be $5 when I first started buying it 8 years ago. And, for the life of me, couldn't find a bag of plain until a month ago and now it's all the feed store carries as well. It does look the same to me, but doesn't take as much rinsing, IMO.

Tammy
2002
Mn


Re: 2nd request - Amino Acid Chelates vs. Poly's

pposey09
 

No, that's not what I'm saying. The quote is about a study in horses, and you might want to look at these two previous posts.

122367 135196
Linda,
Thanks again for revisiting this with me. It has been a while since my original question posted! You're direction was very helpful.

Please, correct me again if I'm off course. This is what I gather from the posts: Studies have shown absorption of mineral from chelates is greater in several species than absorption from other mineral forms. There is an industry assumption this carries over to equines. However, studies have not been performed in equines to prove or deny that assumption. What we do know, from studies, is the absorption rate in equines from mineral salts is generally 70%.(70% is from Dr. Kellon's post)

I continue to be amazed by what has not been studied in equines! I thought I didn't know things because I was not well informed. It appears, in addition to that, there are answers to many questions science has yet to reveal.

Thanks again!

Paula
MT 12/09


Re: Roasted in the shell peanuts

Kelly <kellysbrightstar@...>
 

A few months ago there were some postings regarding the feeding of roasted in tne shell peanuts being used as horse treats for cushings/IR horses. I cannont find those postings in the files. I remember that >they were said to be 'safe' for cushings/IR horses.
Hello! I use roasted in shell peanuts as a treat for my mare. She loves them. I think they are a file under safe treats in the files section.

Kelly & Lady
Oregon
11/08

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