Linda,
No she does not have any signs of DSLD. She looks normal in that regard. Her feet were very neglected and she has very obvious IR traits. Cresty neck, bulges above her eyes, tail padding, you name it. She was on 15 acres of green grass when I took her in. My hunch is she's abscessing from all that rotation (I don't have x-rays but rotation is very evident)and seperation but all four feet and at the same time? Seems unlikely but I don't have experience with that so not sure.

I was reminded to sign with my location and date of joining the group:

Lydia, Atascadero California, and I think I've been a member since about 10/2007

I hope someone can answer this question for me. I have a newly diagnosed
I.R. horse. He is seven years old this spring. We did a test for the PPID
which came back within normal range at 23.9 on a range of 9-35 from Cornell.
As I have been reading the files on this site for a couple of months now
gleaning everything I can, I have a question now.



Since it is June and mid 80's most days, should I be concerned that my horse
is not completely shed out? He had begun shedding late and patchy at that.
I read that the thyroid is probably not a problem, but if a little off would
recoup after the diet and such were more tightly controlled.



He is eating 2 TBS of iodized salt per day with 2 oz. fresh ground flax 2000
mg of liquid Es mixed with 1 pound of ODTBCs with water. Plus he gets 14
pounds of ODTBCs soaked per day divided with a small mesh hay net of soaked
hay for over night, approximately 5-6 pounds.



With all the exercise, his weight is good now very close to a 5 on the body
condition score. I need to use a smaller girth now. His energy level has
doubled but still not 100%.



Is there anything else I should do for him or look into concerning him not
shedding out completely? Is there an herbal that will help his thyroid if
that is the problem yet?



Thank you for any and all suggestions.

Kim Lee in NW PA

With Malachi

March 2010

I recently found out that my 10yr old QH gelding is Insulin resistant.

Darcey sent me a pic of her gelding - a handsome buckskin. He does look a bit pudgy and from the pic sure looks as if he has a crest. She says his feet are getting tender.

Darcey - as I mentioned before, it is indeed unusual for a QH to develop IR. But you do describe something that needs to be explored and managed.

Diagnosis, diet, trim, exercise...these steps will help you help your boy the best.

Diagnosis: Again, how did the diagnosis come about? From the symptoms that you see? Or blood work? Please share lab results, if you have them.

If not, you need to make an appointment with your vet to have insulin and glucose run. As a 10 y/o it's not likely that he is a PPID (cushings) candidate, but I am here to tell you that my boy started his issues at 10, and he ultimately had a diagnosis of PPID.

PPID, when not controlled with medication (pergolide), can cause IR. What makes this so deja vu for me is that I figured Pap was IR because of his similarity at 10 to what you are seeing with your boy, but Pap's genetics said that he was unlikely to be IR. Turned out it was related to very early onset of PPID. Not typical but definitely possible.

To test for PPID, the vet can draw an ACTH at the same time as the G and I. Your horse needs to eat before the vet arrives - at least 4 hours before and should be feed a low sugar/starch *grass* hay...or free choice if possible.

Diet:

If you don't know the s/s content of your hay, you need to soak your hay for one hour, drain and feed. This will remove up to 30% of the sugars in the hay, and often diminishes the foot tenderness rapidly.

Feed him 2% of his ideal weight or 1.5% of his current weight, whichever is greater. Spread it out over several small feedings/day. No bagged feed, no fat, no grazing. You were sent some documents when you joined. There are instructions in there for temporary diet and supplements until you are able to have your hay analyzed. You can then balance your hay with minerals specific to your horse's needs and your hay - we will help you with that.

Trim:

Low heel/short toe, or trimmed to x-rays. He looks long in the picture. A well balanced trim can help stave off disaster should he develop full blown laminitis.

Please avoid the liberal use of bute should his foot tenderness get worse. It is helpful for the first few days, but the low s/s hay will be the big help. Lengthy use of bute actually impedes healing of laminitis. If he has an elevated ACTH, the start of pergolide will be the last piece of the tenderness puzzle.

Exercise - only as able, but a great way to keep IR under control.

Please post a history of your horse here:

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3/>

You also might find our educational website of interest:

http://www.ecirhorse.com

Please post any and all questions. I'm sure you have many! Take a deep breath - this is all doable!

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004

Forage is being sent for testing tomorrow. Consulting w/ Dr. Kellon as soon as those results are in along with new blood work.

In the meantime, how about I up his LinPro..........I've got to do something...I can't just sit here and wait.

Kristie & Sashi
SW Ohio

Shannon,
I did not follow your posts, but I have a question, since I live only 3 hours northeast of Houston. Has this hay been tested?Or are you just assuming that it may be too high in sugar and therefore soak it?
One of the two sources of bermuda hay I had this winter only had 4% sugar and no starch! The other bermuda hay had a combined 7%. They got 1/3 of the lower sugar hay and 2/3 of the second hay, together with a handful of Safe Choice as a carrier for their minerals. My assorted horses became rather lethargic, no energy, even my 2 year old. A neighbor, who fed the 4% hay exclusively with some Safe Choice had the same problem with her horses. I did the math and decided that adding 2 lbs. of a grain pellet at around 40% sugar/starch would still only bring their sugar/starch level up to around 8% in the diet. That made a huge difference in their attitudes, nothing crazy, just didn't always act totally tired and without any energy.
I do feel that there is such a thing as too little sugar in the case of my hay, especially the first one.Could that be the case for you too?
Sibylle

This thread is being moved to ECHorsekeeping as more on topic to that list, and not on topic to ECushings.

Thank you,

Don - Pacific Northwest U.S. Temperate Rainforest
11/2007 - EC List Support Team

Visit the new Cushings and IR site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

KFG wrote:

You and Rafiq would be far better served by getting the forage he's eating analyzed so that you'll know whether his nutritional needs are
being met - protein, carbohydrate, fat, calories, major and trace minerals.

And I can add from personal experience also that getting those minerals balanced to the main course of forage is sooooo important. My Beau has gone from cresty and fat pads plus being laminitic for two and a half years...to a slim beautiful horse. Unfortunately, he had bad trims for almost a year so even tho the laminitis is gone, we are dealing with contracted tendons/muscles. But there was a major difference when we started on the balanced timothy cubes and only added the salt, Vit E and small amount of ground flax seed. It took a while but not as long as I thought it would. I know it's hard to believe, but try it for six months and I bet you will be so pleased.

Elva (and angel Satin)
New Mexico
2004

Hi Shannon

In addition to the great advice you've been given over the past few days by members who have been right where you are, I'd like to suggest going back to basics. Reread the New Member primer found in the START HERE folder. Here's a link

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/%201%20START%20HERE%21%21%21/>

If link does not work, go to the group home page and click on the FiLES section. It's the third folder down.

If Rafiq's IR and PPID are under control, he should be able to gain weight on daily 2 percent of his desired body weight in hay. So if you want him to weigh 1000 pounds, give him 20 pounds of hay. Many members have reported excellent results using slow feeders to mimic grazing and provide better stabilization of the appetite hormones. Tons of discussion about how to do that is available on our sister list for horse management issues ECHorsekeeping.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHorsekeeping/>

You can read about the science behind it in messages 141073, 131236, 108515,
100818, 100750

If he is in pain, he will not gain weight. However we do not recommend bute as it has been shown over and over to slow down the healing process. If you suspect abscess, bute will retard the exit of such. Info on other pain relief products is here

http://tinyurl.com/ylfj5b8

But nothing will fully relieve a foot that needs trim adjustment.

Sometimes it's not weight per se that is the problem but muscle development. As Kathleen has said the OTC minerals are not going to help you there. A well balanced diet consisting of tested hay is key. The seemingly impossible has been accomplished by many folks in boarding situations.

You've been through a lot recently and it can seem impossibly hard to make changes. I can speak from experience though that nothing is more liberating than seeing your horse get better.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

Hi Shannon,

My auto waterer comment has sure stirred things up!  Actually my PLASTIC-style, double-walled waterers have a cooler temp than buckets/tubs and stay cleaner -- BY FAR.   These waterers are not in stalls, they are out in pasture areas. 

Cathy 
Cathy Huffman --

May you always be overwhelmed by the Grace of God rather than by the cares of life

Operation Christmas Child (a ministry of Samaritan's Purse)
Area Coordinator
Upstate South Carolina
National Collection Week is November 15-22, 2010

Community Bible Church
Alms & Legs Ministry Team Member
Easley, South Carolina




________________________________
From: Shannon <skgserenity@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Tue, June 1, 2010 6:25:05 AM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: A Few Quandries concerning Rafiq as summer closes in...

 
My experience is that the water stays cool..... and nasty. No matter how much I have cleaned it, the water comes out rust-colored. Its not the temperature that would make me hate it, its the metallic taste I assume it has. This is not the kind that the horse has to nudge with his muzzle, it just has a floater that tells it to refill when it dips. (Like a toilet works, basically.

Just my experience with one in a well-ventilated stall, though.
Shannon, Rafiq and Majik
Houston June 09

--- In EquineCushings@..., "headmare0" <headmare0@...> wrote:

Wow Cathy that is a sweeping statement that is totally incorrect in very high temp areas, like southern AZ where I live.

--- In EquineCushings@..., Cathy Huffman <frazzia5@> wrote:

An automatic waterer keeps water cooler.  It holds less and when the horse drinks, the water is kept fresh and cool coming from pipes underground.

No fast. Think about it - you don't need to know what a horse's insulin when they fast because... they don't fast. Horses are trickle feeders - or so they are in the wild. You'll end up with an artificially low insulin value if you fast and you still won't know the insulin value when the horse is eating. Hay only - no grain. If he doesn't get hay for an hour or two before the blood draw, that's OK, just don't do an overnight fast.

If it were my vet I would say, "OK, we've established what his fasting insulin is. What I really need to know is how his insulin responds to feeding low carbohydrate forage."

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Shannon" <skgserenity@...> wrote:

I understand that many folks here believe that mineral blocks and supplements containing a variety of vitamins and minerals can do more damage than good. Rafiq was doing quite well on Platinum Performance 2x/day for the past 9 mths, and I'll probably return to that. He ignores salt and mineral blocks anyway.

Shannon,

I realize you and Rafiq have been through the wringer, but there are a couple of things that we need to clarify.

1. Commercial mineral supplements or blocks: This recommendation is not based in belief or personal preferances. It's based in science and the personal experiences of those of us here. Rafiq is recovering and underweight. His nutritional health is important for both weight gain and returning to good health.

2. Platinum Performance provides remarkably little in the way of major and trace minerals. The label would lead you to think otherwise but when you consider the actual amount, the truth comes out. See message #94644 for a detailed review.

You and Rafiq would be far better served by getting the forage he's eating analyzed so that you'll know whether his nutritional needs are being met - protein, carbohydrate, fat, calories, major and trace minerals.

I know from my own experience what a difference this makes. Plus it takes you away from that helpless feeling of watching your horse suffer to doing something that you know can, and does, help.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com

Hi Carol --


Sorry I wasn't clear about the auto waterer (i'm from Tucson, myself).  Living in Upstate SC now, our temps are often over 90.  Our waterers are not metal, they are some kind of plastic, double thickness for insulation.  Also, no valve for horse to press -- they operate on the "toilet principle."  A float inside refills when water level goes too low.  The water is always nicer temp than a bucket or tub, and stays much cleaner.  Well -- it works like a charm for us -- solved lots of the problems associated with buckets/tubs (although we still have some of those in some paddock areas).

My best to you --
Cathy
Cathy Huffman --

May you always be overwhelmed by the Grace of God rather than by the cares of life

Operation Christmas Child (a ministry of Samaritan's Purse)
Area Coordinator
Upstate South Carolina
National Collection Week is November 15-22, 2010

Community Bible Church
Alms & Legs Ministry Team Member
Easley, South Carolina




________________________________
From: headmare0 <headmare0@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Mon, May 31, 2010 3:05:55 PM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: A Few Quandries concerning Rafiq as summer closes in...

 
Wow Cathy that is a sweeping statement that is totally incorrect in very high temp areas, like southern AZ where I live. Personally I would never use an automatic watererer for several reasons: as you mentioned they do hold less, however with it being very shallow it rapidly approaches the air temperature and when that goes over 90 degrees, the horses do not like to drink it. Also, the metal holding bowl gets extremely hot, increasing again the temp of the water most esp if located in direct sunlight. The heat of the metal also discourages the horse from pressing the valve as it actually can get so hot it can burn the sensitive muzzle, let alone the human hand. Also the temperature of the water as it comes out of the pipe is extremely warm and I generally have to let the water run for a while until the water cools off. I have several friends who did not realize this as they did not want to deal with cleaning water tubs, but I would rather do that than
deal with the automatic system.

Carol
Sept 2009
AZ

--- In EquineCushings@..., Cathy Huffman <frazzia5@...> wrote:

An automatic waterer keeps water cooler.  It holds less and when the horse drinks, the water is kept fresh and cool coming from pipes underground.
 
Cathy Huffman --

May you always be overwhelmed by the Grace of God rather than by the cares of life

Operation Christmas Child (a ministry of Samaritan's Purse)
Area Coordinator
Upstate South Carolina
National Collection Week is November 15-22, 2010

Community Bible Church
Alms & Legs Ministry Team Member
Easley, South Carolina




________________________________
From: Shannon <skgserenity@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Sun, May 30, 2010 5:38:14 PM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: A Few Quandries concerning Rafiq as summer closes in...

 
Hi Ronia and Mandy - thank y'all for responding with some good ideas. Lately I'm just beyond exhausted, and at the moment being hit hard by allergies (and benadryl). Hope I make sense here!

Ronia -

No, I haven't tried mushes. It is definitely something to consider for the hydration if it comes to that, but at the moment I'm really only able to get out there once a day, usually in the evenings. So I wouldn't be able to feed it 3x/day. Putting water on the hay is an old trick that I am kicking myself for not considering until now. I give him his supplements by syringe (salt added as of today), and I also clean his pen/stall, refill water, and go through his medical and treatment protocol. I believe thateven the folks who work at the barn will do that. I'm also going to look into the "soak, rinse, soak" beet pulp suggestion.

Definitely going to be more sensitive to the water being as cool as I can make it. Rafiq lives in a 12'x 12' stall with an attached pen that is an additional 12' x 24'. There is very little relief from the sun in ths area where these walk-out pens are located. The water tank is at the far end of the pen to encourage him to move around a bit. With the direct sun most of the day, that thing heats up and it evaporates. Last night I added a hanging water bucket to his stall (since he apparently won't drink from the automatic waterer regardless of how often it is cleaned). This will allow him to get a drink without hitting the direct part of the heat.

I have a couple of fans on him now, and another heavy duty one to hang from the upper corner of his stall when I find someone strong enough to even lift it that high. This is going to be a very hot summer.

Mandy -

I do not feel like a strong person. The heat/humidity plus allergies are kicking my butt! I'm too old for this!

Table salt is easily given by syringe, so adding that is easy. The exercise is more complicated as his hoof is still in a transition phase. Taking him for a walk is okay, but with increased exercise there is more of a chance that he will wear down the already-weak feet. It may come down to putting him in a small one-horse turn out to increase his mobility (and digestion).

Basically, I would rate Rafiq's weight at a 3 on the body score index. In returning home he definitley has gone down in the quality of hay he was eating and in the intervals of receiving it. I expect that he will need alfalfa or the Purina L/S to help with the weight. I am certainly not going to starve him.

Thank you!
Shannon, Rafiq and Majik
June 2009




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In EquineCushings@..., "barefooted4" <kristiebrand@...> wrote:

In message # 141169 you requested I look at my bag of LinPro and get the #'s for Copper & Zinc. Here they are!

Copper - 2.1% = 1200 ppm
Zinc - min. 5000 ppm

Is this sufficient for a Cushing's horse?

That's clearly different than what's posted on their website (thank heavens!) but still falls short of National Research Council (NRC) minimum daily requirements. Two ounces of LinPro, based on these figures would provide 68 mg of copper and 284 mg of zinc.

There is no "one-size-fits-all" supplement for horses with Cushing's so it's impossible to know if it comes anywhere close to meeting your horse's daily needs without knowing the mineral profile of the forage. It is better than nothing at all.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005

So about two weeks ago she started walking sore again. I can feel pulses again. The strange thing is she is more sore in the back than the front now.

Lydia -

Where are you at?

I'm wondering with the paso fino genetics if she is possibly a DSLD horse? Do her fetlocks appear lower than they should be? Does she look as if she's trying to curl/roll onto the toes?

I have minimal experience with DSLD but other list members do. Please offer suggestions!

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004

When I tested my hay, I did not rinse or soak it. Would the minerals reflect the hay + the dirt on the hay or do they clean it before they test it?

Hi Jane -

The only mineral that is *on* the hay in any amount is iron. We usually balance the traces to the amount of iron - sometimes the amount of manganese. EA does not rinse or soak.

Soaking actually drives more iron into the hay; soaking soaks out potassium which is OK since most hays are really high in potassium. If you need to soak hay due to sugar content, you could rinse the hay first, and then soak.

Rinsing will drop the amount of iron since it removes the surface dirt. Whether it is any, all or not at all bioavailable is the question we can't answer.

A sample from the field will give you the mineral picture, but if you are also looking for sugar/starch, you'd need to send in many samples from different hours of the day/night. The s/s is a moving target!

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004

I have a pony I took in who was badly foundered. I have been a member of this group for a while and joined because of another horse i have who is compensated Insulin resistant so I am very familiar with all the normal protocol and reccomendations. Please understand that I live in an area where there are many sound healthy horses people are giving away and taking to auction. Nobody wants this pony and I took her in to try to help her live. I will keep her if she does well and give her a good home however I cannot spend hundreds on vet care and feed testing and all that goes with that. I have other horses I have had for many years that are still my priority. I am just prefacing this note with that because I want you to understand that I do know what the very best would be for her and unfortunately that is not available for her.

So here is my situation and I hope I can get some advice. She was down in a pasture near me with feet so long I am sure it had been two years since any trimming. She had grass foundered every year and more according to another neighbor and did not get any care. She is only about 7 years old and does not have a name. She is a Spanish Gaited Pony which is a mix of Paso Fino or Peruvian Paso and Welsh pony. I talked the guy who was going to shoot her into letting me medicate her and get her to my dirt paddock. I trimmed her feet pretty drastically at first (with her lying down) because it just had to be done that way for her to have a fighting chance. I padded her and fed her the emergency diet. She spent a lot of time down the first week and then made pretty amazing progress the next week. I have trimmed her feet a tiny bit just about weekly to keep the fast growing heels in check and have the leverages removed from her toes. It has been four months. She was doing incredible and actually had started running around which my neighbor said he had never seen her move faster than an amble in the last three years! I was thinking everything was perfect and her feet had grown and been trimmed to the point that from the top they looked "almost normal" unless you looked closely or turned the foot over and could still see what was left of the lamillar wedge. I do not have x-rays on her even though that would be great to have it's not in the budget. So about two weeks ago she started walking sore again. I can feel pulses again. The strange thing is she is more sore in the back than the front now. She is on low sugar Teff Hay only and no grass no grain. Sometimes soaked beet pulp and remission but not every day.I treated her like she was foundering again but now I am not so sure as her appearance is different. She is very sore to move but hardly ever lies down. She will let me pick up each of her feet and can stand and I don't see anything unusual or different. Her feet look just like I would expect at this stage. Could she be abscessing in all four? One hind and one front are the most sore but it really looks like all of them hurt. How long after a bad founder do abscesses usually develop? I am just trying to figure out what to do next. I'd love it if I had tons of money for diagnostics and tests or somebody who could take her who did, but that's not an option. She is a sweetie and never complains and does not look like she is suffering at all. I think foot pain has been a part of her whole life so she doesn't really know much differently. If anybody has had a similar experience or ideas of what I should be looking for please share with me. I have been a vet tech for large animals and have had horses for almost 40 years and had some lame ones and hoof abscess etc but have never had a badly foundered horse to recover until now.
Thank You!
Lydia

So true about the mild mannered buddy. I lost the mild mannered mare
that was his buddy also to colic years ago and replaced her with the
grey buddy that died of the tumor strangulation of the small intestine.
So the poor pony has been doubly stressed. So I am in the looking stage
for another "free" buddy that I can also ride trails with an occasional
schooling show on the side.

This week Jimmney Cricket has been better. So I guess it will take more time. I hope that it will not take 3 months like Jill's older horse did. I have been keeping hay in his safe zone for him to retreat to if she is too bossy. It is hot and humid here and he also has a fan and water in the zone. He is much brighter today and yesterday. Makes me feel much better.
Angie
Cricket and Luna
Sept 08

If it is the supplements she doesn't like, have you considered syringing the
supplements in. > >

I'll just add to this post by suggesting if your horse is resistant to
having a syringe put In the corner of his mouth and frequently spits out
their meds/herbs/supplements, use one of those worming bits you see in tack
catalogs. It is a hard plastic hollow bit and headstall with a plunger
attached. I make my supplements about the consistency of baby food or really
soft peanut butter. I squirt it in the opening and immediately use the
plunger to push it all the way into their mouth. I don't know what I would
have done all these months w/o one of these wonders. They get all their
stuff with no real waste to speak of and they can;t really spit it out. And
mine has held up beautifully!

Laura and Boo Boo
NC 1/2010

My IR/Cushings horse had an insulin blood test recently. He normally has an elevated insulin around 75. This last one was 4. Normal is 10-30.
I was told for the first time from my vet that it should be taken on
a fast, so that's what I did.

Someone on this site said it should not be on a fast for that blood
test.

My horse is not doing well at the moment (laminitis and heaves all of a sudden since March) and I'm having another test taken this week. I don't know if I should have it taken after fasting or not.

He is on pergolide, cyproheptadine, albuterol, and an antihistamine.


Thanks,
Judy

Dr. Kellon,so sorry you have this stress too...we will be patient now and will wait for yr note here, where we can find yr comments-thankful
you are willing to go this unconventional way for the horse and the owners !
Greetings/Katharina with Kuni(IR+PPID)-Syke/Germany-member/2007