Jessica,

This is a previous post from Dr Kellon. Post #123435.

Since we are entering the Seasonal Rise I am copying the entire post.



" Just as a brief synopsis on the seasonal changes. There is a
documented rise in ACTH that is in full swing by September, starts ?,
ends for most horses by January. Older horses and confirmed PPID
horses have higher levels. We know by experiences over the years that
some horses can get into trouble with this as early as mid July. Some
non-PPID horses (i.e. normal when tested in May)will have elevated
levels that last longer than January. These are more than likely "pre-
Cushing's" horses that will eventually show the elevations year-round.

"Something" also appears to be going on around the time of the Spring
Equinox in mid to late March. Every year we see a blip on the radar
screen in horses experiencing hoof pain problems around this time -
unexplained by medication or diet changes. This has not been studied
yet, or "officially" documented by any published studies but we see
it in this large group every year. This is also the same time that
horses are going through changes in pituitary and hypothalamic
responsiveness to hormones that trigger shedding of the winter coat
and the resumption of reproductive cycles. We've even had horses that
snap out of their unexplained foot soreness on precisely the same
date in subsequent years. Fascinating stuff all - but still
unexplained.

As for what this all has to do with when you test, that's a bit
difficult to say when you don't know what the heck is going on in the
first place. If you want to know your horse's best case scenario
baseline, wait until April or May to test. However, if you have a
horse that has seasonal problems, you want to test during (better
yet, before the danger period) that time to make sure your program is
working adequately. "

Hope this answers your questions.

www.http://ecirhorse.com also has a section on Seasonal Rise. Have you had an opportunity to visit/read the website?

Susan
EC Support/Primary Response

..........................................................................

Thank you, I tried.

There is no preview available.



Heike Bean

08/VT



Dr. Kellon wrote:

There's a search box on the left side of the page. Type laminitis into that
and it will bring you to several pages, the first of which is the beginning
of that chapter.

--- In EquineCushings@..., "bmccray12000" <bmccray@...> wrote:

All horses have a seasonal rise in ACTH levels but it is more so in horses with PPID.

Barb (or others),

Does "seasonal rise" refer to the rise in the forage, rise in the horse, or rise in the horse due to rise in the forage? I know that sounds confusing, but that is the only way that I could express my confusion. I guess I am looking for what exactly the "seasonal rise" is, although I know it has to do with the ACTH level. Thanks.

Jessica & Mia
LA 08-10

Lorna, I checked the files for the Canadian sources of minerals etc. Pestell is listed as one. My local feed store uses Pestell shavings, so would I be safe to assume they can order anything that Pestell carries? I will have a look at their website in the meantime. Are there other sources you would recommend?

I need a cheaper alternative to ODTB cubes. Rosie is doing well on them, but it seems silly to spend all that money on cubes when I get my hay for nothing and would just have to buy the stuff needed to balance it. This would also solve the problem of my other horse chowing down on her cubes. She will walk away from the cubes to get hay. I am sending a hay sample to A&L and will likely need help with the spreadsheet when I get the results back.

Thanks.
Sharon & Rosie
Caledon, ON
Jan 2010

Hi Leanne n Rani,

This one finally game through!! Yeah!!

Great to talk to you.

A value of 60 is still high considering that you've just come off the seasonal rise. If this were Dazzle, I'd increase it for the off-season (now) and increase it even more for the high season.

It's not unusual to have to increase the pergolide to almost twice the level as before to help keep the ACTH levels in a good range.

If this were Dazzle, I'd probably move the pergolide up to 2.5 mg now, then plan to increase it to about 3.5 mg during the seasonal rise.

Don't forget to keep that diet tight. As long as the ACTH is up, it will be more difficult to keep the insulins under control, especially in a mare who's hormones are an issue!

For others reading - don't forget that Leanne is in Australia and their seasons are opposite of ours.

Joan and Dazzle
Anaheim, CA 2006

Nancy, Thanks. The horse that I suspect is IR is the only one not on the
Seminole. She is on TC Low Starch for now.
 
Susan
Duck, Ice, Connie, Dalton, Swani, Vanessa, and Shadow
Florida /August 2010/NRC0610
 
http://www.artnanimals.com




________________________________
From: Nancy Collins <threecatfarm@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Mon, August 30, 2010 9:35:29 AM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: Yucca

 
Hi Susan

This link will take you to an archived message about joint
supplements, including Yucca. In the message are additional links to
the group FILES section that will give more info about Yucca and IR.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/139800>

Since your horses are not diagnosed IR, you most likely do not have an
issue. I would be careful with the one you suspect as being IR.
getting a diagnosis would hep you decide what to do. You probably
know that already.

PS - Some years ago, Triple Crown took the yucca out of it's product.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

Hi Susan

This link will take you to an archived message about joint supplements, including Yucca. In the message are additional links to the group FILES section that will give more info about Yucca and IR.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/139800>

Since your horses are not diagnosed IR, you most likely do not have an issue. I would be careful with the one you suspect as being IR. getting a diagnosis would hep you decide what to do. You probably know that already.

PS - Some years ago, Triple Crown took the yucca out of it's product.


Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

--- In EquineCushings@..., "congleton" <juliecongleton@...> wrote:

I am posting for a friend.

What do I do? No, I do not know how tight they are on the diet. This is a girl that struggled for years in denial. When she finally broke down and came for advice, we did a really tight diet and sf hay. That was when she was at my place. Then she moved away. She also went onto one of the MIRACLE CURE PRODUCTS and I posted about that last year as the owner felt like all of our diet regime was in the bucket....

Julie,

A quick review of past postings regarding this horse shows that this has been going on for years. Repeated halfway measures, repeated "magic bullets" and repeated laminitis. I'm sure the cost has been out the roof with the vet bills and miracle products and that doesn't begin to address the cost to the horse, which you've sadly detailed here.

We often are criticized for our hard line drill - Follow the DDT/E to the letter, no halfway measures - but we say that because the chances of successful management or recovery are highest using this protocol. That doesn't mean a person has to do what we say - that's their choice - but we won't sway from that message. I'll add that 100% of management and 99% of recovery is in the hands of the owner; not the vet, not the farrier.

There comes a time when you just have to step away. This may be it.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

thank you Vicki,

Have a 34 on those otbc and really need to find them if we move. My vote on moving at all, depends on being able to get those cubes. Found a few propertys with barns but need to feed my Pony too.
ML

Nancy...is yucca to be avoided for all horses or just IR/Cushings horses. I have

some of my horses on Seminole Senior Formula (as soon as I am comfortable with
my calculations I will be balancing my hay and probably not using this). The
feed store promoted it because of the yucca and some other things. It was
promoted as an anti-inflammatory I think.
 
Susan
Duck, Ice, Connie, Dalton, Swani, Vanessa, and Shadow
Florida /August 2010/NRC0610
 
http://www.artnanimals.com




________________________________
From: Nancy <threecatfarm@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Mon, August 30, 2010 8:07:08 AM
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: Yucca

 
Hi Jessica

Yes, yucca is to be avoided.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

I am posting for a friend. She has a history with us and I am not looking for it..I think she is 19 years, saddlebred, very thin, easy keeper. I just got this recent "history" this a.m. This saddlebred tested "0" for IR (almost negative) which was really bad. The test was done twice, and her results were the same. She was negative for cushings, which dr. k suggested polycystic but the owner was not proactive. Then they left our place, put in a bahia pasture and had a few ups and downs, nothing major, made a dry lot, and things were going pretty well. The boyfriend bought some metamucil in July and it was not sugar free. I am unsure how much she got of this or for how many days...I haven't had time to find out ..... and here we are with today's update from the owner:
Kenzie has been through about 4 types of shoes including easyride boots. Her rotation in the right was typical and we got her back to her usual 5 degrees...club foot. Problem there was lack of sole. She didn't drop through but close. Now she has grown sole but she wont come off her toe and it looks like there maybe an abscess around the tip of P3 where she keeps wanting to stand. White line developed on that foot also. Abscess blew through the coronet. This is her "good foot"!
The left entered a whole new realm of laminitis we have never been through! She rotated mediolaterally - side to side. Biggest changes are felt in her heel. Her hoof wall separated at the coronet and created quite a mess. If you thought there wasn't enough info about founder try googling mediolateral rotation. I'm trying anything and everything. She is on 2 types of recovery supplements bute msm 3-4 chinese herbs......
She's been to the state guy twice now and he said if the shoeing we put on this time doesn't help she needs a tenotomy on the right. After that we are out of things to try!
What do I do? No, I do not know how tight they are on the diet. This is a girl that struggled for years in denial. When she finally broke down and came for advice, we did a really tight diet and sf hay. That was when she was at my place. Then she moved away. She also went onto one of the MIRACLE CURE PRODUCTS and I posted about that last year as the owner felt like all of our diet regime was in the bucket....when the bucket ran out, she didn't re-buy.
Having said all this.....if anyone is interested, let me know. Also, for newbies SUGAR is not acceptable for IR horses and ponies. It just isn't. And there is SUGAR IN GRASS. Okay, fructans, but I've been out of the loop for a while.
Hugs, Julie without Cinderella

Hi Heike,

There's a search box on the left side of the page. Type laminitis into that and it will bring you to several pages, the first of which is the beginning of that chapter.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Stacy" <saberger@...> wrote:

She indicated that normally they won't test this time of year because it will give misleading information (??)

Just to clarify that, it can be misleading if you are trying to establish a diagnosis of PPID, but if it's high and that corresponds with the symptoms appearing, you have a problem.

If it is the ACTH being very high, would increasing his pergolide dose help him to restabilize his weight?

It should, yes. In the future, you might want to consider increasing it a week or two before you expect the gain to start - head it off.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

Hi Jessica,

No, do not wait. I'm forgetting Mia's age but I'm assuming you are getting insulin, glucose and ACTH?

All horses have a seasonal rise in ACTH levels but it is more so in horses with PPID. It is recommended that horses that are diagnosed PPID and are on pergolide be checked at this time of the year to see if the current dose of pergolide is controlling ACTH levels. Some early PPID horses may only need pergolide during the seasonal rise to control ACTH levels at that time. If a horse were to be started on pergolide at this time of year based on ACTH levels, it is often wise to recheck levels after the seasonal rise to see where the horse is at then.

Does this make sense?

Barb in western CO
(with Sierra, Libby, Josie and Lola)
2005
EC List Support Team

www.ecirhorse.com

Hi Jessica

Yes, yucca is to be avoided. If you were going to look at the Seminole feed, I'd suggest contacting the company to find out how much is used. They may say "not very much", but I'd press for an exact number. Might be ppm (part per million) or percent or milligrams or grams.

Because this is a complete feed, designed to be fed in say 20 pounds for a 1000 pound horse, thought would be that the amount in 1 or 2 pounds used for a supplement carrier would be too small to be an issue. We'd have to know the amount though to be sure.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

Thanks mandy and Joan for responding, hope you get this one! Ranis ACTH was taken in August she has been on pergolide for approx. .a year she has had her bloods taken 4 times during that period. She has been through one seasonal rise(acth of 186) whilst on it. That is when i increased her dose from 1mg to 2mg over a period of days..She once again became `clingy and calling for me constantly' and lethargic/depressed as she was when our problems first arrived the May before last.I haven't decreased it as i understand she was 60 in the low time and therefore would need increasing again.I need to order some more .25mg pergolide which i have done. So asap she will be increased. Am I to presume she will need another increase before her next seasonal rise? Nice to talk to you Joan as i believe you have a hormonal little mare in common. Im guessing her rises may be a little more dramatic due to this?
Leanne n Rani
Aust. 2009

--- In EquineCushings@..., "mrsjessicawiltz" <mrsjessicawiltz@...> wrote:

Mia appears to now be in season. Both my boys are geldings, but this has just prompted the question: How does pregnancy affect an IR or Cushings mare? Is it dangerous? Can I breed her in the future?

Since normal pregnancy induces insulin resistance, any thoughts of breeding should be laid to rest until her insulin resistance is under control. Pregnancy is metabolically challenging all by itself without the added complication of existing IR or PPID. That said, some here have, with careful management, had healthy foals from IR mares.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

Thanks for clarifying the course being taken.

Cheryl - No. IL 10/07

This year's hay ended up being rather high in Sugar/starch.

Here are my Three questions.

1. If I feed Ontario Dehy Tim Balance cubes or Trip Crn Safe Forage, do I have to add flax (I use horseshine) and minerals or are they really balanced and "no supplements needed"?

2. Can I safely do a "quick switch" if I feed these products in place of my "regular hay" when I am on vacation? I am afraid that "house/horse" sitters may not soak hay as diligenlty as I do. It would be convenient if the house/horse sitter only had to dole out cubes or safe forage.

3. Do the cubes have to be soaked before being fed or are they "soft" enough for the horse to eat straight out of the bag?

Thanks,
Jane and Miss Kitty
NE MS
10/09

All,

Recently, there was a discussion of a feed, Seminole, (I don't know if I spelled that correctly) and about the ingredient, yucca. But when I looked on the Items to Avoid in the files, I found this:

"YUCCA has a corticosteroid effect and the Yucca saponins can induce IR. Yucca may also be irritating to the stomach lining."

So why would we use this feed? Does it depend on the amount? If so, is a "little bit" of this as bad as the "little bit" of fat that we have been discussing/debating?

Jessica & Mia
LA 08-10