Date   

Re: Tis the season. Pergolide decrease protocol

Missy Libby
 

Thanks, LeeAnne. I read/printed those but I'm still not seeing the
answer to my question. When decreasing, do I have the vet draw blood
before I start the decrease (she's been on 3mg/day), or after I get to
where Abby was last fall (2mg/day)? That's my basic question. Also, in
the post that I have by Dr. K it says to decrease by .25mg at 3 week
intervals. The Pergolide 101 says to do increasing every 3 days. Makes
no mention of decreasing dosage. Sorry, if I'm being a real numbskull
here but I can't find the answer to my question and I need to do blood
work sooner, rather than later. Thanks again.
Missy and Abby in Maine
Nov 2008

-----Original Message-----
From: EquineCushings@...
[mailto:EquineCushings@...] On Behalf Of tomtriv


Hi Missy,
Just wanted to let you know about the document called "Pergolide
101".ecirhorse.com .


Re: Pergolide AND Chasteberry Tree powder

gail bond <windybond1@...>
 

Sorry not a answer but a question as well, maybe they will all get answered together.



Just started on peroglide, was feeding chasteberry, my mare is now not eating her tea so cannot give the chasteberry?

Gail


x






To: EquineCushings@...
From: teamlaura@...
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 22:29:26 +0000
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: Pergolide AND Chasteberry Tree powder







--- In EquineCushings@..., "old_horselover" <morganhorse@...> wrote:

My gelding is doing OK on Pergolide, other than not shedding out any more. I tried to wean him off from the Pergolide at one time to try Chasteberry but he became VERY ill, so I am keeping him on the Pergolide. I'm wondering if I can feed the Chasteberry in addition to the Pergolide, to aid in his shedding, since I've read that Chasteberry works better to promote shedding. If so, how much Chasteberry should I feed?


Lois and Jettl from Wisconsin
2004
I don't know what others would say, but I give my mare 1 Tablespoon a day in her morning feed and she shed out beautifully. Using 4 months now. We are not on Perolide, tho...
Laura
2010
Metro Atlanta





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Re: Tis the season. Pergolide decrease protocol

Missy Libby
 

-----Original Message-----
From: EquineCushings@...
[mailto:EquineCushings@...] On Behalf Of tomtriv
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 10:43 AM
To: EquineCushings@...
Subject: [EquineCushings] Re: Tis the season. Pergolide decrease
protocol




Hi Missy,
Just wanted to let you know about the document called "Pergolide 101" It
answers a lot of your questions and maybe ones you'll have later. You
can find it on the ECIR website at www.ecirhorse.com . Just type
"pergolide 101" in to the search box.
Another great source of info on pergolide is the files section. If you
go here
http://tinyurl. <http://tinyurl.com/ydvj2ph> com/ydvj2ph
and open "Table of Contents" (TOC). Using this document can easliy
search the files (use the keys crtl + f and type "pergolide")to quickly
find a link to Pergolide 101 as well as additional information.

The TOC search makes finding information in the files easy for any
subject.
Cheers
-LeeAnne 03/04
Newmarket, Ontario
ECIR File Clerk


Re: ALCAR and Pure Lysine

Shawn
 

Laura,

The mineral balancing alone will help and I personally add 20mg of biotin. Does it help? Not sure, but it won't hurt 'em any.

Tammy
2002
Mn

--- In EquineCushings@..., "lauratmatt" <lauratmatt@...> wrote:
What, if any, hoof supplements are of any benefit to help grow a stronger hoof.


Re: Hay analysis

spearhead10000 <spearhead10000@...>
 

As you requested in you last post.

http://www.equinesciencenews.com/news/080709.html

Equine Science News:

08/07/09 - Soaked Hay May Not Help Laminitis

"New research conducted by the Laminitis Consortium has raised questions over whether it is safe to feed laminitis-prone equines soaked hay.

Laminitis has been previously associated with too many water-soluble carbohydrates (WSC) in the diet and it has been recommended that hay with a non-structural carbohydrate content (water-soluble carbohydrates and starch) of less than 10% should be fed to obese horses as well as those prone to laminitis and that this hay should be soaked in water first.

However, it has been previously shown that soaking chopped hay for a prolonged period of time can result in nutrients draining out of the hay. But in Britain, the tendency is to use long-stemmed hay soaked in only a small volume of water for varying timescales and the researchers decided to replicate this practice and look at what happened to the WSC.

They found that in 30minutes of soaking, less WSCs leaked out of the hay as previously found for chopped hay and very few sample reached below the 10% WSC content despite prolonged soaking.

Nutritionist Clare Barfoot of Mars Horsecare UK Ltd is worried. She has been quoted on Horsetalk as saying: ""The concern is that this strongly suggests that soaking may not be sufficient to render some hays safe to feed to horses and ponies prone to laminitis."

She added that the "current advice is that ideally you should analyse your hay before feeding it to an animal at high risk of laminitis and choose hay with the lowest WSC content you can find."

"Soaking hay provides an additional safeguard but should not be relied upon", she confirmed.

The researchers also found that by soaking hay for extended periods of time, a substantial amount of other nutrients, vitamins and minerals can be lost, meaning that the hay may no longer meet the nutritional requirements of the animal. In such cases, it is advisable to contact a nutritionist who would be able to advise you of the relevant supplements to add to your horse's hard feed.

The Laminitis Consortium comprises leading equine veterinary, nutrition and research experts interested in laminitis and is conducted in association with WALTHAM, one of the world's leading research centres in pet care and nutrition."

-I think this article is very clear that other nutrients are indeed lost.
.


Can you help us by providing some links? Especially with reference to nutrients being lost, other than postassium?

Thanks.

Lorna in Ontario
Support/Moderator
2002


Re: WAS: Mr. Frizzer NOW: grass

runwayknitting2
 

Nancy,
Thanks so much for taking an interest and you are certainly not in my face.. I appreciate all of the advise and help from everyone.

Frizzer has always been healthy never overweight, never underweight.
We didn't know about the IR until one of your group said have him tested and we did. He has never been Laminitic or showed any signs of having anything wrong with him.Never given us any worries about his health at all.

It was a real shock for us, he had never been in a lush field and if we had of known or even suspected that he had IR or a sheath infection or any problem we would have had the Vet there 911.

He started off with one foot limping which he had a dirtclog which we got out and he just walked off with no pain.
The next day the other foot was ouchy and we called the Farrier in to check him and he showed no tenderness at all. The Farrier said call the Vet something else is going on with him , which we did and that's when the sheath infection was found and we were told it had caused Frizzer to have Laminitis.
So it was around 3 days of all this going on before we could find out what was wrong.
So it was a lot going on and we just didn't catch what it was until evidently it was too late..
He is getting better, we have had him trimmed, he was too very sore at first, now today he's walking better.
This will be a lifetime of watching him so very closely, never want to see him suffer again,
If there's anything I can do to stop it I will.

Thanks
Pam
April 2010
Alabama

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Nancy" <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

I'm currently lurking on the side lines due to a family emergency but have been following this line of questioning about grass and sugars, etc., adn have to speak up. There are a few things to point out from the perspective of the work of members here over ten years.

The question of grass from the perspective of this group is cut and dried. The goal and focus of this group is zero laminitis. None. Zilch. Zip. Whether it be subclinical (see recent thread on subclinical laminitis) or acute, our goal is to eliminate laminitis in the horse.

Putting a horse with real or suspected high insulin from any cause - sheath, post pregnancy, poor diet, lack of exercise, metabolic/hormonal or any health issue that raises insulin for prolonged periods - on any grass can have direct microscopic or acute affect on his feet.

Combine this with poor trimming and you have both barrels loaded.

We're here to tell that if you know your horse has trouble with it, take him off the grass until you have addressed a complete and correct diagnosis, a diet over haul, a real understanding of the hoof care needed and an ability to get back to work. Period.

With all due respect, too many vets do not understand this. We wish they did. However it is correct that you cannot reliably test grass for sugar content. You can for mineral however.

Most of the info on Safergrass was initially compiled here. A search of the message archives from 2001 to 2002 will show anyone interested how it was compiled, the contribution by the members here, the science and deep background for the conclusions.

Warm or cool season grasses can both cause problems. Years of experience by the members here show it is not necessary or prudent to take the chance of the acute pain that comes with laminitis.

I realize I'm a tad in your face about this, however a survey of hands of old time members will show you how many have suffered as a result of thinking they can give them a little bit of lush or short or warm or cool or sparse or muzzled grass only to find they made a mistake. I was one of them and it has cost my horse dearly. Do everything you can to avoid this.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

--- In EquineCushings@..., "spearhead10000" <spearhead10000@> wrote:
Pam, you are not the only one confused by this grass issue, and I don't think it's really cut and dried (pun intended!) at all. My vet said that unless you have a testing lab in your basement, no one really can know what grass is safe and when.


Charlie is Slobbering

runwayknitting2
 

Charlie is a 6 year old Gelding, he is slobbering.Not a whole lot but enough when he gets a drink from the bucket we are having to change the water because it looks yucky.
He is not in a pasture with Clover. Small pasture since we had problems with Frizzer we have kept them all in the small pasture.

Nothing different other than we gave him some Target IR that is supposed to have vitamins to replace the oats when they mostly get hay.

Why do they just start slobbering and what to do about it?
Thanks
Pam
April 2010
Alabama


Re: looking for diet advice

Mandy Woods
 

Kim!
I was re-reading my post to you and this statement did NOT come out the way I intended it......

oh ~ you can feed up to 30% her body weight a day in dry beet pulp. Just be sure to rinse/soak/rinse it.

You can feed your mare up to 30% her daily Feed weight ! So if you're giving her 20 pounds of hay a day she could have 6 pounds of BP if you could get her to eat that much. Apologize for the error.

The ECH3 site is


http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3/

Mandy in VA
EC First Responder
OCT 2003


l/s wellsolve

salzerclaudia
 

last few days i 'm finding pieces of corn my bags call 1800 an let them
know .they told me inbetween changes feed it can happen. my problem is it puts the carbs up.so i'm not happy to have to check every soop i feed what else is in there that shouldn't.there answer was check new bags then exchange well if i find them in new bag i'll switch to other
low starch feeds. just want to warn everyone ,date may ,spokane plant
claudia& moonlight
oregon


WAS: Mr. Frizzer NOW: grass

Nancy C
 

I'm currently lurking on the side lines due to a family emergency but have been following this line of questioning about grass and sugars, etc., adn have to speak up. There are a few things to point out from the perspective of the work of members here over ten years.

The question of grass from the perspective of this group is cut and dried. The goal and focus of this group is zero laminitis. None. Zilch. Zip. Whether it be subclinical (see recent thread on subclinical laminitis) or acute, our goal is to eliminate laminitis in the horse.

Putting a horse with real or suspected high insulin from any cause - sheath, post pregnancy, poor diet, lack of exercise, metabolic/hormonal or any health issue that raises insulin for prolonged periods - on any grass can have direct microscopic or acute affect on his feet.

Combine this with poor trimming and you have both barrels loaded.

We're here to tell that if you know your horse has trouble with it, take him off the grass until you have addressed a complete and correct diagnosis, a diet over haul, a real understanding of the hoof care needed and an ability to get back to work. Period.

With all due respect, too many vets do not understand this. We wish they did. However it is correct that you cannot reliably test grass for sugar content. You can for mineral however.

Most of the info on Safergrass was initially compiled here. A search of the message archives from 2001 to 2002 will show anyone interested how it was compiled, the contribution by the members here, the science and deep background for the conclusions.

Warm or cool season grasses can both cause problems. Years of experience by the members here show it is not necessary or prudent to take the chance of the acute pain that comes with laminitis.

I realize I'm a tad in your face about this, however a survey of hands of old time members will show you how many have suffered as a result of thinking they can give them a little bit of lush or short or warm or cool or sparse or muzzled grass only to find they made a mistake. I was one of them and it has cost my horse dearly. Do everything you can to avoid this.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

--- In EquineCushings@..., "spearhead10000" <spearhead10000@...> wrote:
Pam, you are not the only one confused by this grass issue, and I don't think it's really cut and dried (pun intended!) at all. My vet said that unless you have a testing lab in your basement, no one really can know what grass is safe and when.


Re: Tis the season. Pergolide decrease protocol

tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>
 

Hi Missy,
Just wanted to let you know about the document called "Pergolide 101" It answers a lot of your questions and maybe ones you'll have later. You can find it on the ECIR website at www.ecirhorse.com . Just type "pergolide 101" in to the search box.
Another great source of info on pergolide is the files section. If you go here
http://tinyurl.com/ydvj2ph
and open "Table of Contents" (TOC). Using this document can easliy search the files (use the keys crtl + f and type "pergolide")to quickly find a link to Pergolide 101 as well as additional information.

The TOC search makes finding information in the files easy for any subject.
Cheers
-LeeAnne 03/04
Newmarket, Ontario
ECIR File Clerk


Re: ALCAR and Pure Lysine

Susan Young
 

The best product I have found for producing hoof and increasing sole depth is E3LiveforHorses:
http://www.e3liveforhorses.com/store.asp/CAME_FROM/Saddle%20Up

Take a look at these x-rays of a horse I am working with. He was mechanically foundered, on E3Live for two months with regular weekly trimming to realign P3. The sole depth is amazing:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30992517&l=2d4146c476&id=1519730848

Matrix is not IR or Cushings, so you would have to do some research to make sure the E3Live would be appropriate - it is a blue/green algae from a lake in Oregon. It's expensive, but it works.

Susan
Florida

--- In EquineCushings@..., "lauratmatt" <lauratmatt@...> wrote:

Just wanted to know exactly what these supplements can do for a recovering foundered horse and also if Farrier's Formula is considered safe for horses with IR. What, if any, hoof supplements are of any benefit to help grow a stronger hoof.

Laura and Boo Boo
NC 1/2010


ALCAR and Pure Lysine

lauratmatt <lauratmatt@...>
 

Just wanted to know exactly what these supplements can do for a recovering foundered horse and also if Farrier's Formula is considered safe for horses with IR. What, if any, hoof supplements are of any benefit to help grow a stronger hoof.

Laura and Boo Boo
NC 1/2010


Re: Pergolide AND Chasteberry Tree powder

tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>
 

Hi Lois,
I asked this exact question a few years back. See message 119428 for Dr. Kellon's reply. For an explanation of How Chasteberry works: Message #140976
-LeeAnne 03/04
Newmarket, Ont
ECIR File Clerk


Re: Dr.Kellon?any chance to get help on 'FREITAG'?

kunigunde77
 

Dr. Kellon,owners had sent their mail May 4th in the evening
to yr recommended e-mail address/Dr.Kellon....but they haven' received
any confirmation from yr side till now...could you check,pls and let
them know,pls.?
Many Thanks.
Greetings Katharina with Kuni(IR+PPID)-Syke/Germany-member since 2007

--- In EquineCushings@..., "drkellon" <drkellon@...> wrote:

I'll be glad to help you. Try sending a test mail to drkellon "at" drkellon.com. That will automatically redirect to my gmail and should get through.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Good news for Sunny

Tracy & Don Goglio <zamarays@...>
 

I am so happy to report that my gelding only 2.5 weeks after his dx of founder, had normal white line yesterday on his hoof clipping! He has lost weight and his cresty neck and fat pockets have diminished. The farrier was amazed how quickly he has turned around. I know I still have to be really careful with his diet, and will not change anything.

He has been off bute for 6 days, but is still having some diarrhea and watery gas. I have started him on probiotics/yeast just a few days ago. Anything else I can do for him? He is eating and drinking normally.

He still seems more comfy in the founder stance (prior to farrier)... is this normal? Does it take time for them to be more comfortable? He is walking with a limp. He is not laying down hardly at all anymore. He does have joint issues (large boney calcifications) in his hock and knee that I am sure cause some discomfort.

Last question :-) I have my mare on the same diet, but she can handle 1 hour grazing a day. Since we feed 1.5% of body weight a day, how do you figure in grass to the equation?

Thanks to everyone for the support (especially Linda!).

Tracy - WV
April 2010


Re: Mr. Frizzer

spearhead10000 <spearhead10000@...>
 

Pam, you are not the only one confused by this grass issue, and I don't think it's really cut and dried (pun intended!) at all. My vet said that unless you have a testing lab in your basement, no one really can know what grass is safe and when. Since you know your horse has trouble with it, consider a grazing muzzle once he recovers from this incident. That way he can still move around, but the grass intake is lessened immensely. I was very resistant to using muzzles, but I have seen all 3 horses I own lose a lot of weight with them. They still do eat some hay, but not as much as they would on a dry lot.

I have heard and read everything about grasses, and there is no set answer. I think the safergrass website is a very good start to understanding it better, but trusting your gut and reading journal articles is the best answer. I still bush hog my field when the fescue goes to seed, and then the horses can graze on the warm season grasses. I think that the TYPE of grass you have in your pasture is just as important as the length. And the time of year, plus your horse's BCS is a real biggie in many (but not all) cases.

Good luck and know you are not alone in this confusion. There is no one "right" answer about grass, every horse is an individual and has his own environment, that's why everything is so contradictory/confusing.

Nancy
Southern Illinois
2009
-
So many contraditions it's amazing me.. However I'm learning to read everything everyone sends me and make a gut reaction to the info..
Thanks
Pam
April 2010
Alabam
--- In EquineCushings@..., "runwayknitting2" <runwayknitting2@...> wrote:


Re: Mr. Frizzer

runwayknitting2
 

Mandy,
He is a little sore from the trim. Thanks for finding the pictures guess I didn't put them in an album . I tried but somehow it didn't work..
At least everyone thinks he had a great trim and he is improving everyday.
The Farrier said he would be touchy for a few days then we should see big improvement.

Thanks
Pam
April 2010
Alabama

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Linda" <PapBallou@...> wrote:




Mandy,
Once again I am lost, I have posted new pictures to Mr. Frizzers page but can no longer find them.

Hi -

I found them! WOW! He had really long toes via x-ray. How is he feeling? The one pic of the sole looks as if it's getting close to where it should be! YAY!

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Fructose affect in IR horses

spearhead10000 <spearhead10000@...>
 

I found this in a journal article (Nutrition and Metabolism Journal)

"In addition, diets specifically high in fructose have been shown to contribute to a metabolic disturbance in animal models resulting in weight gain, hyperlipidemia [27], and hypertension [28].

" A high flux of fructose to the liver, the main organ capable of metabolizing this simple carbohydrate, perturbs glucose metabolism and glucose uptake pathways, and leads to a significantly enhanced rate of de novolipogenesis and triglyceride (TG) synthesis, driven by the high flux of glycerol and acyl portions of TG molecules from fructose catabolism. These metabolic disturbances appear to underlie the induction of insulin resistance commonly observed with high fructose feeding in both humans and animal models'.

This article states there is a relationship between fructose and IR in these controlled studies.

Where I am confused is that I was told, by someone in this group, that ONLY sucrose was the problem with IR horses, not fructose. So that is my first question.

When turnout is discussed in this group, it is always recommended that the turnout be in the morning. At that time of day, fructans have been shown to be at their lowest levels. Soooo, if fructose is not a problem, why should morning be considered as the optimal turnout time for IR horses? Or is the morning the best time for turnout due to other reasons? This is my 2nd question.

3rd question - with the idea that I am perceiving - perhaps very incorrectly - that diet is to be corrected (which I agree with totally), but that turnout for these IR laminitis horses is never really addressed until the horse is "comfortable". Turnout is vital, according to my vet and my trimmer, for these horses to recover DURING a laminitis event; I was encouraged to turn my horse out with a muzzle while he was experiencing pain, to SPEED recovery, as most barefoot sites recommend. NOT while overly medicated, when they can hurt themselves, but while tottering around on their sore feet, preferably booted for comfort. Either this recommendation is not on this site, or I have completely missed it.


Thanks,

Nancy Spear
Southern Illinois
2009


Re: Boo Boo vet visit results

Laura Matthews <lauratmatt@...>
 

Did Kelly put you in touch with Rebecca Wyatt? If so, Rebecca will
definitely be >able to help you. Tell her I said Hi.


Hi Susan!
Kelly directed me to Rebecca Wyatt and we had about an hour conversation
yesterday. She is coming Friday @ noon and I can't wait. I will give an
update on the results. She gave me such hope! Again, thanks for you
suggestion--it was a god-send!

Laura and Boo Boo
NC 1/2010

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