--- In EquineCushings@..., nancyahayden@... wrote:

When feeding ODTBC do you add any other source of long stem forage, grain, or any supplements?
Thanks,
Nancy
KY 2010

If you're feeding ODTB cubes as 100% of the diet at 1.5-2% body weight (15-20 pounds for a 1000 lb animal) you only need to add flax (2-4 oz), vitamin E (1000 IUs/500 lbs) and salt.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

--- In EquineCushings@..., "lklajavic" <lklajavic@...> wrote:

I have an IR mare, a Cushing's gelding, and a yearling. What thoughts does the group have on feeding everyone the same feed? Or should the baby get something different? My feed store carries Triple Crown Low Starch, Purina brands, and Nutrena Safe Choice. Is one of those brands better than the others? Thank you for your guidance!
Linda in Wolverine Lake, Michigan

Go to <http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/3a%20Feeds/> for a list of safe feeds for Cushings/IR horses. TC Low Starch, most Purina products and Nutrena Safe Choice are not acceptable for horses with metabolic disorders.

A yearling should not be fed like an adult horse with metabolic issues. Despite what the feed companies say, there is no reason to use bagged commercial feeds unless your forage is broadly deficient in calories, protein, major and trace minerals. We only recommend using bagged feeds, if needed, as carrier for the added minerals needed to balance the forage, not as a substitute for forage analysis and balancing.

Dr. Kellon says it best in message #113867.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

When feeding ODTBC do you add any other source of long stem forage, grain, or any supplements?
Thanks,
Nancy
KY 2010

Timmi, you must never forget that the lyme disease doesn't become "cured". It will be cleared of the blood by meds and goes underground into muscles. It will NEVER leave the horse's body. Stress, vaccinations, trailering, showing etc will bring the lyme back out of hiding.
This is a constant problem and you need to stay alert of the signs that the lyme has come out of hiding.....

As per Dr. Kellon told me years ago. Do the dog snap test for lyme disease at your vets clinic. Cost is about $8-10.
Then you will have an accurate baseline to work from. Or you can request titres being done. But which ever you decide
the testing will be of excellant information for you to keep tabs on your horses. The immune system should keep the lyme
in control providing you are supporting the gut with Forco or Ration Plus for good flora within. This is a MUST.....
Good luck.
Judy-PA
5/06






She was treated last year for Lyme as was my old gelding and I. We all had
it. Spirit's numbers then were 289 and his were in the 400s. Quick
intervention on the part of me and my vet stopped it with 106.5 fever reduced to
normal in 24 hours and no hoof issues. My gelding, now 24, was nearly put
down at 7 due to 4-way founder at 7. He came back great, but will always show
some residual on Lyme test.

Spirit is now off Banamine, getting 1 g. bute a.m./p.m. which should be
stopped this week. She's being trimmed and digitally x-rayed every two weeks.
Improvement. Sole depth is good. No sign of abcess. She's in a deeply
bedded 12 x 24 ft. stall and is comfortable. Will Hormonise help or should I go
to Jiaogulan or Phytoquench. Vet and farrier due out Friday.

Timmi Pierce in MD
0909

Hi Lynn,

Studies such as this one have led to most vets dropping cypro:

J Vet Intern Med. 2002 Nov-Dec;16(6):742-6.
Treatment with pergolide or cyproheptadine of pituitary pars intermedia dysfunction (equine Cushing's disease).

Donaldson MT, LaMonte BH, Morresey P, Smith G, Beech J.

Department of Clinical Studies-New Bolton Center, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Kennett Square, PA 19348, USA. mtd@...
Abstract

Medical records of 27 horses (including 13 ponies) treated with pergolide or cyproheptadine for pituitary pars intermedia dysfunction were reviewed to determine the effect of treatment on plasma ACTH, insulin, and glucose concentrations and clinical signs. Prior to treatment, the most common clinical signs were laminitis, hirsutism, and abnormal body fat distribution. The median pergolide dose was 3.0 microg/kg p.o. q24h (range, 1.7-5.5 microg/kg). All horses treated with cyproheptadine were given 0.25 mg/kg p.o. q24h. After pergolide treatment, ACTH concentrations (n = 20; median = 30.4 pg/ml; range, 4.2-173) were significantly lower (P < .01) than those in horses treated with cyproheptadine (n = 7; median = 141.0 pg/ml: range, 10-1,230). Among horses treated with pergolide, there was a correlation between ACTH concentration after treatment and the duration of treatment (P < .001) and pergolide dose (P = .04). Significantly (P = .02) more owners of horses treated with pergolide (85%, 17/20) reported an improvement in clinical signs compared to owners of horses treated with cyproheptadine (28%, 2/7).

although others are contradictory:

Equine Vet J. 2002 Nov;34(7):679-85.
Plasma adrenocorticotropin (ACTH) concentrations and clinical response in horses treated for equine Cushing's disease with cyproheptadine or pergolide.

Perkins GA, Lamb S, Erb HN, Schanbacher B, Nydam DV, Divers TJ.

Department of Clinical Sciences, New York State College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca 14853, USA.
Abstract

Plasma ACTH levels have been variable in horses with a positive clinical response for therapy for equine Cushing's Disease (ECD). Therefore, our purpose was to determine the value of monitoring plasma adrenocorticotropin (ACTH) levels during treatment of equine Cushing's disease (ECD) with either cyproheptadine (n = 32) or pergolide (n = 10). First, we validated the chemiluminescent ACTH assay (specificity, precision, accuracy, intra-assay and interassay variations) and tested methods of handling the whole blood from the time of collection to when the ACTH was assayed. The sensitivity and specificity of high plasma ACTH levels for detecting ECD was determined in a retrospective study on hospitalised horses (n = 68). Surveys were sent to veterinarians who submitted equine ACTH levels that were high initially and had at least 2 ACTH samples to determine the value of monitoring ACTH levels during therapy of ECD. The ACTH chemiluminescent assay was valid. The ACTH was stable when whole blood was collected and held in plastic tubes for 8 h before separating the plasma. The sensitivity and specificity of plasma ACTH levels for detecting ECD were 84% (n = 19,95% CI 60,97) and 78% (n = 49,95% CI 63,88), respectively. Treated horses generally showed a decrease in plasma ACTH. Plasma ACTH levels may be helpful when monitoring therapy of ECD, although improvement in clinical signs should be considered most important. There were no differences between cyproheptadine and pergolide in terms of improvements in any of the clinical signs.

Back in the early days of this list, when more horses were getting cypro, we were seeing a good clinical/symptomatic response initially but usually no drop in ACTH. Most (? all) horses eventually became refractory to it and by then their ACTH was really hard to control.
Since your horse is asymptomatic, it probably won't help.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

--- In EquineCushings@..., "grayarabiankasha" <kvshopping@...> wrote:

I recently bagan to give my Cushings/IR boy about a cup to two cups a day of Mountain Sunrise timothy pellets. It gets the pergolyde into him, and he loves them as treats. My question is about other MS pellets. Would Bermuda pellets be better?

By the looks of the analyses: <http://www.mountainsunrise.com/analysis.html> and only considering ESC + starch, the timothy pellet is slightly less in starch. I see no advantage to the bermuda. The amount you're feeding shouldn't cause a problem with your forage balancing.

FWIW, I just wrote Mountain Sunrise and asked if they would include trace minerals in their analysis. The product endorsement of the timothy pellets as a "great source of copper and zinc" caught my eye. Copper and zinc are nearly always deficient in forage and with no trace mineral analysis to support that claim, it leaves me wondering.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

I'd avoid the bute, but you might talk with your vet about using half dose doxycycline as an antiinflammatory instead. If they do turn out to be Lyme positive, you can just increase the dose.

Keep an eye open for signs of cycling the next few weeks and check for any sensitivity to touch in the flanks.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001

--- In EquineCushings@..., "merritabor" <hillhaven@...> wrote:

Hello all, I haven't posted to this group before, but thought somebody might have some suggestions for me. I have a wonderful 7 yo QH mare that we've had since she was a weanling. Although she was so young, she was diagnosed with Cushings and put on Pergolide (1 mg/day).

Cushing's (PPID) would be extremely unusual in a 7 yr old QH. How was she diagnosed? What blood tests were done? What symptoms led to the diagnosis? Long hair coat, muscle wasting, loss of topline and a pot-bellied appearance?

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

Hi Shannon

The soft tissue complications from high heels and toe first landing can be addressed and corrected but it takes time, a correct trim to realign the coffin bone, muscle work and movement. A well balanced diet helps the body support and speed the healing process. At present Rafiq can't move correctly because he's in pain from rotation, distal descent and shoes. That needs to be corrected. You do not need surgery on the DDFT.

The best thing you can do for Rafiq right now is research the foot and how folks are successfully rehabbing these horses. Here are some places to start reading tonight.

Read this article about ongoing successful hoof rehab study at Auburn U.

<http://www.hoofrehab.com/HoofRehabProtocol.htm>

There's tons more on the above site about the sole, heel height and distal descent (aka sinking)

These articles below can all be found on ECHoof

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHoof/files/>

Laminitis - Hoof mechanism.htm
Dr Kellon on how hoof mechanism is changed with laminitis and how different approaches to support might help.

Heel Height.htm
Excellent article showing the effects of high heels

HOOF CARE - Breakover and Balancing.txt
Duckett's Dot System. Posted by Dr. Kellon 2/08/2004


Shannon - As we've said before, we need to see photos. Take some good ones for us. Here's how

2How to take hoof photos.htm
Pictures and instructions to get the best shots for evaluation thanks to Lisa/equine_habit

*******
You have several trimmer/farriers in your area whom you should interview. (Greg and other Texas folk, are you out there and can you help with names?)

Ask them
What is their approach to rehab?
How many have they successfully put back to regular work?
What do they feel Rafiq's prognosis for recovery is based on rads and seeing the horse move?
How often will they trim the horse?
How will they/do they deal with soft tissue discomfort?
Are they okay with getting input from others who have successfully brought horses like this back?

Regarding your other questions/comments....

Okay - so basically J-herb should do the job at a fraction of the cost of LaminaSaver? <<

BINGO!

 The problem as they described it is that Rafiq hasn't enough sole to spare with too much being cut off at the heel and toe at the same time.  Thus we are going a little at a time.<<

We need to see pictures but going "a little at a time" too often leaves you stuck in limbo with the horse not getting better and often getting worse. Most of them can be so much better. (See ECHoof archives.) Generally the approach would be to take the heels, do not touch the sole, back up the toe length from the top. Comfort soft tissue stress with boots, pads, massage and movement as he builds up. Help the body heal with a balanced diet.

See above file on how to get best pics for internet input.

The long term goal has been to align, but the right front is too late in recovery for any "derotation" via extreme trim and cutting the deep flexor tendon?<<  

Do not cut the DDFT.

Are the heartbar shoes doing more harm than good?<<

Yes.

Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

I have an IR mare, a Cushing's gelding, and a yearling. What thoughts does the group have on feeding everyone the same feed? Or should the baby get something different? My feed store carries Triple Crown Low Starch, Purina brands, and Nutrena Safe Choice. Is one of those brands better than the others? Thank you for your guidance!
Linda in Wolverine Lake, Michigan

In the link pics Dr. K posted, I agree with her that I do not see on any of those horses pictures with what I call a IR related " fatty crest".

Baroque horses (or Morgans) have a muscular neck, and those muscles most probably are prominent Splenius and cervical rhomboid muscles that lie *under* the Nuchae ligament. Even with muscular necks, they have sleek neck top lines.


I referred to my anatomy books, and there are 2 ligaments that are of importance running along the top of the back, then up over the base of the wither (Supraspinous ligament), then at about the top of the wither to the poll ( a portion of Nuchae ligament ).

Unless someone can convince me otherwise.... the fat pocket we call a "crest" on an IR horse is above (and possibly around the sides ), but not *below* the nuchae ligament.

So if your horse hase a "fallen: crest - I beleive it's a fat pocket, within which the (fat)cells have dumped most of their contents, so the whole fat pocket is now not firm and won't stand up as it would when filled. And where it falls over, is where the nuchae ligament lies along the top line of the neck.

Comments from other on this?

Barb (VT)
Aug2001

Hi Lynn,

My vet recommended adding cypro to pergolide for my Mac last fall. Mac also consistently tested slightly above the normal range for his ACTH (40 to 45 - lab normal 1 - 30) plus he was a very hard keeper, continued to have muscle wasting and his coat was dull. He was on 2.5 mg of pergolide and really had problems with the pergolide veil when I would increase his dosage.

When he was on cypro and pergolide together, his coat looked much better and he was holding his weight instead of losing weight over the fall / winter months. His energy was good, and he didn't appear to have any issues with the cypro.

We lost Mac to colic in Jan when he was 30. I didn't have a chance to do blood work to see how the drugs were working before we lost him, but based on the clinical signs he seemed to be doing much better than on pergolide alone.

Perhaps some others have had experiences they can share.

Carol
Pacific NW

Hi,

I have had great success with Adequan IM which is a course of 7 injections into the muscle - one every 4 days.
I've used this on 2 horses and both cushings, no adverse effect to their cushings.

I also give them a joint supplement which I also find helps.

Best regards
Michelle
UK 2007





















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We want to hear all your funny, exciting and crazy Hotmail stories. Tell us now

I recently bagan to give my Cushings/IR boy about a cup to two cups a day of Mountain Sunrise timothy pellets. It gets the pergolyde into him, and he loves them as treats. My question is about other MS pellets. Would Bermuda pellets be better? Also, am I giving him too much? So far he seems okay, but I know another low will come along, and I need to know if I should stop the pellets if/when he starts showing pain.

Thank you much.

Kathy Vertullo
SoCal
2003

Okay - so basically J-herb should do the job at a fraction of the cost of LaminaSaver? That is news I love to hear, especially as finances tighten up.

Concerning the RF Hoof -

I must admit I really am far more confused at the moment about this than before, and very stressed out over making the WRONG decision for my horse. I have had about 48 hrs of peace of mind I guess over the past couple of days as he has been walking quite well. However I admit that this situation, the vast difference in respected opinions has me so strung out that I spend a great deal of time in tears and anxiety. I'm completely torn on the trimming/shoeing of that foot than anything else. It scares the heck out of me.

The problem with that RF is that it has built up scar tissue beneath the coffin bone over time, and the ligaments and superficial tendons have shortened to accommodate the new angle. The farrier is out this week for both horses. When I spoke with him about Rafiq 2 wks ago, I asked him about lowering the heel more and shortening the toe more. In Rafiq's case this is quite scary as it takes away good hoof growth that has stabilized the foot. It is what he is working toward, but is not taking too much off at any given time. He explained that it would create less hoof in general, and as I understood it, Rafiq would be walking on his sole - the very thing we are trying to grow more of.

Am I being TOO conservative here? Last time I let someone knock off more toe and heel, we ended up with mega abscessing and the coffin bone sticking out, Rafiq screaming in pain, and casting - so I have some serious paranoia. I can't afford (financially) to do that again.

Rafiq has favored this foot for many other reasons over the years. The heel is down substantially from where we were. Both vet and farrier said that the balance "may" not get much better than what it is now. (I'm praying they are wrong.) The problem as they described it is that Rafiq hasn't enough sole to spare with too much being cut off at the heel and toe at the same time. Thus we are going a little at a time.

Again, I'm wondering if I'm being overly conservative. The long term goal has been to align, but the right front is too late in recovery for any "derotation" via extreme trim and cutting the deep flexor tendon? Not that I have the money for such a surgery at this point.

Are the heartbar shoes doing more harm than good? It seems that my only other alternative is soft-rides again. The ground out here is getting plenty muddy and wet, then drying and cracking. Same thing is happening to the feet of horses all around me. Rafiq has stayed steady with the exception of the abscess.

Okay - its 2am and I'm exhausted. Please help me understand HOW to do this without doing more harm than good? I thought I was on the right track to a proper trim, while NOT causing more damage.


Thank you,

Shannon, Rafiq and Majik
Houston 2009
EC History3:  http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3/files/Rafiq%20and%20Majik/
Website:  www.EquiJourneys.com

What is the group's latest thinking regarding the medication strategy of combining cypro with pergolide as opposed to further increasing the pergolide dose?

This is with regard to a confirmed PPID horse whose ACTH has been consistently in the upper forties to mid fifties (normal lab range 9-35) despite regularly increasing the pergolide dose, now at 2.75 mg twice daily.

The horse is non-symptomatic, clinically doing well, but ACTH has consistently been above normal range. I ask because I am currently awaiting ACTH recheck results, but my vet mentioned the possibility of adding cypro to the mix as opposed to further increasing the pergolide dose if the ACTH comes in again above the normal range.

I checked the files and past messages, but couldn't find much about it in recent years. I want to do the best thing for my horse. He has had no tolerability issues with pergolide, and I am concerned about adding another drug into the mix.

Any thoughts from the group? Is there a point at which it makes more sense to add cypro versus further increasing the pergolide dose?

Many thanks, as always.

Lynn and Tsultry in Minneapolis
2008-ish

Hello all, I haven't posted to this group before, but thought somebody might have some suggestions for me. I have a wonderful 7 yo QH mare that we've had since she was a weanling. We sent her for training to a local Clinton Anderson/Parelli/Lyons trainer last year. She got a solid start, but went lame while there. Although she was so young, she was diagnosed with Cushings and put on Pergolide (1 mg/day). She was doing really well and was completely sound through the winter, but has come up sore again this summer. I am in a financial emergency and can't afford the lab work to see if her meds need to be adjusted. I would like to find her a home with someone who knows about Cushings, but nobody wants a sore horse.... She is a fabulous mover, super athletic,and the most willing horse I've ever ridden - she is so responsive and light off your leg that she will turn herself into a pretzel trying to do what you ask. Does anyone have any ideas for what I can do for Chloe? Anyone need a horse that could be a champion?

Here's a pair that might work. You can snug the looser boot with a baby
diaper on her foot.


FOR SALE-SOFT-RIDE BOOTS sz 7 with Dual Density pads Message List

Reply Message #89 of 201 < Prev | Next >

I have a pair of Soft-Ride boots sz 7 for sale. They were used 4 days
in a
stall. They have never been outside. They come with 2 sets of pads.
Regular and
the duel-density pads for laminitis cases. I had to move up to a
bigger size.
They look brand new. The original pads were never used. The
dual-density have a
little wear on them on the top from a rough edge from the side of his
foot. I
have pictures if anyone would like to see these boots. I need to sell
these ASAP
to cover the cost of the new ones..They really do seem to work. The
website to
get measurement charts is soft-ride.com, and if your horses foot is
tight on the
back measurement they will not fit, so make sure you have enough room
on the
heel, so you don't make the same mistake i did.
Thanks,
Paula





Sue,
Your vet needs to pull blood into a chilled purple top tube then
spin/seperate the plasma/blood within an hour of the draw. It should be
frozen and sent overnight air to Cornell in NY. Many vets balk at the
thought of all the details. Its your best bet to confirm Cushings. The
insulin is tested from this plasma sample too. Have the vet test glucose
from the same draw too.

Dont change anything tonight or tomorrow. Just feed soaked/drained
grass hay.

Mandy




Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:52 am


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My Welsh Sect C pony had to be retired from breeding and showing when he developed a fallen crest. That was on a diet of pasture and loads of carrots. His previous owner had the practice of dumping a truckload of carrots in the pasture for the ponies to eat until their manure was orange, a kind of purge for worms.

I found this group in time to reverse huge weight gain and prevent laminitis, but the fallen crest is still there, not as thick as before, but still 3 1/4 inches at its thickest.

A friend who runs a therapeutic riding stable had a Fjord/Shetland pony whose crest started out thick and fallen when she got him, and reduced to almost normal with daily work and turnout. I saw him in his improved state, and the crest showed only a slightly puckered look at the top.

I am hoping my pony will improve as far as that little guy did. Has anyone else had experience with such changes?

Meanwhile the show-ring's loss is my gain. So glad to have him!

Bonnie Ivey, Ontario
12/08

Dr. Kellon,
They have been off of bute for a month. I was considering putting them back on
it. I don't know if they are cycling. I haven't paid attention since I am so
focused on feet. I can't recall them being in heat during all of this.
Laura
VA, 3/09




If they're still getting bute, that can be a problem too. Do they cycle
normally? Any change in comfort level with the cycle? Any flank pain?

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001







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