Date   

Weaning of Aleve needed?

tomtriv <ThePitchforkPrincess@...>
 

Howdy Everybody
Looking for advice on taking Dawn off Aleve for her arthritic hocks. She's been on it, starting on Aug 10 with 8 caps and building up to 20 caps/day. She started getting Chondroitin (10g per day)on the 20th and will drop down to 5g per day in a few days. Hyaluronic Acid yesterday was started yesterday (about 150mg). So when should I start reducing the Aleve? Should it taper or just stop?
If anyone sees anything wrong with my medication plan please let me know. I gave her a body clip this week and her hocks are nice and small and she seems pretty sound.

-LeeAnne & Dawn,
Newmarket, Ont
PPID & IR 03/2004
Case History: http://tinyurl.com/yk7mvd6
Photos: http://tinyurl.com/6h64yh
All Season Muzzle Photos: http://tinyurl.com/55c52m


Re: Now: Inflammatory vs. Anti-Inflammatory Fats [Was: What's big deal @ a few %?]

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Shannon" <skgserenity@...> wrote:

(3) Specifically, how does "added fat" figure into the testing? In human foods, there are good fats and bad fats, with the good ones actually minimizing the effects of the bad. My doctor describes it as a switch in the brain - good fat sets the "brain switch" for a positive *anti-inflammatory* response, while the bad fat sets the "brain switch" for a negative *inflammatory* response. Is this how the equine body works, as well? Also, which added fats are the most inflammatory? I know that omega 3, 6, and 9 oils, like those found in flax seed, fish oils, pure peanut butter oil (no sugar), are good anti-inflammatory fats for the human body. How does this compare with what we feed our horses?

(4) Aside from supplements, how bio-available are these anti-inflammatory fats in a horse on a mostly (if not all) forage diet?
Shannon,

Since I study fatty acids and their influence in the developing fetus/infant/child for a living, I'll answer.

It's not a brain thing - the brain does not determine whether to synthesize pro- or anti-inflammatory eicosanoids from the fatty acids. It's a metabolic process and a matter of availability. If there are higher pro-inflammatory n-6 essential fatty acids (EFAs) more pro-inflammatory eicosanoids will be synthesized. If there are more anti-inflammatory n-3 EFAs available, then ... well, you can see where this is going. It's discussed in more detail in message 142413 and for an excellent tutorial go to <http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/othernuts/omega3fa/>

For the horse, the anti-inflammatory n-3's are found in grass - about 4-6 parts n-3 to 1 part n-6. Because n-3 fatty acids decay rapidly in hay, they should be replaced. Some options are flax seed and chia seed, again discussed many times and included in the emergency diet and on the main website <www.ecirhorse.com>.

Metabolism and bioavailability are discussed in depth (for humans) on the Linus Pauling website referenced above. There's not a lot of information on bioavailability in the horse although there have been studies using fish oil and flax oil which we've discussed in the past. You can search the archives for those discussions.

Bottom line, the goal is an n-3:n-6 ratio that most closely mimics grass. When the balance is tipped towards n-6 (corn, sunflower, rice bran, soy) then the diet favors inflammatory eicosanoid production. You can look up the various oils, their "inflammation factor" and n-3:n-6 ratios at <http://nutritiondata.self.com/>.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com/


Re: Suddenly obese again...Thyro-L??

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Hi Stacey,

Nothing wrong with putting him on some Thyro-L but considering the timing here I'd be more suspicious of the seasonal ACTH rise as your problem. Was ACTH checked?


Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Now: Inflammatory vs. Anti-Inflammatory Fats [Was: What's big deal @ a few %?]

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Shannon" <skgserenity@...> wrote:

(1) As I understand it, when we test our horses for IR, it is the insulin and glucose that we check?
Yes

(2) What about the other sugars which have been absorbed (sucrose, fructose, etc) in the diet? How do they figure into the blood testing as part of the insulin?
Only monosaccharides can be absorbed. Sucrose is a disaccharide that is digested to monosaccharides before absorption. Glucose is the only sugar that the mammalian body can burn as a fuel, is the only one that triggers insulin release.

(3) Specifically, how does "added fat" figure into the testing? In human foods, there are good fats and bad fats, ... Is this how the equine body works, as well? Also, which added fats are the most inflammatory? I know that omega 3, 6, and 9 oils, .... How does this compare with what we feed our horses?
In both humans and horses, only the omega-3 fatty acids are antiinflammatory. Omega-6 is proinflammatory. Omega-9 has no effects on inflammation. All three of them belong to the class monounsaturated fat.

(4) Aside from supplements, how bio-available are these anti-inflammatory fats in a horse on a mostly (if not all) forage diet?
Again, only omega-3 is antiinflammatory.

The only fats humans or horses need to have in their diet are omega-3 and omega-6. Those are the only two they are not able to synthesize themselves. Fresh grass has about 4 to 6% fat, half of which is omega-3. The ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 in fresh grass is about 4:1. When grass is dried, the omega-3 fat is lost. Hay provides omega-6 but not omega-3.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Rafiq's Hoof Pictures (response and what is in the works)

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Shannon" <skgserenity@...> wrote:


A book I am desperately seeking, "Color Atlas of the Horse's Foot," by Chris Pollitt (published in 1994) .... Someone who has seen the chapter on Laminitis in this book (a member here) told me that the rule of thumb and main choice was all about supporting the foot with the heartbar shoe. This book is still in such high demand, it is proving nearly impossible to find a copy to be able even know if the concept of realignment (and trimming for the natural balance) was even part of the curriculum.
That book is out of print. This often happens when a book is very expensive to produce, as this one would be, and there is insufficient demand for it. Luckily, you can read it on line here:

<http://books.google.com/books?id=0U4jtDQaPEAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22color+atlas+of+the+horse%27s+foot%22&source=bl&ots=feti-oijMP&sig=EqQP_XetNioHX4VCHyoB3Bpd5m0&hl=en&ei=1216TJ-DNIKB8gbs05mYBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false>

The laminitis section starts on page 169. Since it was written in conjunction with the farrier Burney Chapman, it does concentrate heavily on heartbar shoes. You should read this:

http://www.anvilmag.com/farrier/intbc.htm

http://www.anvilmag.com/farrier/intbc2.htm

The heart bar shoe was actually first invented in the 1800s, was brought back into service by Burney Chapman.

If you go to the Atlas online linked above, you'll see they were doing resections that are much more invasive than what was suggested to you here.

You'll also see the great pains that are supposed to be taken to position the shoe correctly on the foot so that it does what it is supposed to do - support the frog. Heart bar shoes are supposed to be hand made, to conform to the individual foot.

Dorsal wall removal is always part of the correct application of heartbar shoes (and any other device you can find). In this paper, the wall removal described is more like what was shown to you here:

http://www.equi-life.eu/3.0/3.3.5%20Construction%20of%20HBS.pdf

The two issues which do concern me are: (1) the effect of rather quick drop on Rafiq's already-damaged DDFT,
In prior posts you have mentioned bone spurs rubbing on the DDFT. However, those "spurs" on the navicular are actually calcification inside the interior of the navicular suspensory ligaments, not points of bone sticking out. If he has DDFT damage as well (would need a MRI to see that), that is correctly managed not by leaving the heels high but by adding heel support externally that is gradually brought back down again as the horse heals. Soft Ride pads in the correct density would work for that, or degree pads in boots. The laminar wedge is moving his breakover too far forward and is aggravating the DDFT/navicular area.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Suddenly obese again...Thyro-L??

Stacy
 

My under control (until recently) 13 year old IR/Cushings Arab gelding looks like a swollen tick. This happened last year too. I haven't changed a thing - on 1mg Pergolide, low sugar/starch,balanced diet, fairly regular rigourous excersie. Fall comes around, and he blows up. We are feeding the same hay now that we were in June, no change.

He is being included in the University of Minnisota IR study. The vet drew blood for the study on Tuesday and couldn't believe he had gotten all the fatty pockets back, as she saw him in April and was so impressed how he looked like a 'normal' horse.

She is concerned that he could founder again (as am I) and suggested that we also test his blood for thyroid levels to see if he was hypothyroid. Blood work came back and he is 1.5, which was on the low end of the normal range - which is about where he was 2 years ago when he was weaned off the Thyro-L.

My vet is suggesting that perhaps we should be targeting the mid-range of 'normal' rather than anywhere within the reference range on normal. She thinks we should start him back on a small amount (1/2 scoop) or Thyro-L to get his weight back down and then wean him off it again in January or so...or just keep him on a low dose for the rest of his life.

I bumped up the amount of magnesium so that the Ca: Mg ration is about 1:2 now. I just started that yesterday and am hoping that will help him.

I am hesitant to put him back on Thyro-L - what is the thought about using Thyro-L to control the weight? If he is in the noraml reference range(borderline at the low end of the range) is it something that we should not consider or is being overweight worse than adding Thyro-L?

Thank you -

Stacy
Shingle Springs, Ca
2003


Re: Suggestions to Replace APF & Previcox

Nancy C
 

Hi Lynn

Don't have any first hand experience with the Pain X. Web site says

<A combination of the amino acids DL-Phenylalaline and L-Leucine. >

If that's all that's in there should be okay to try for IR. If you don't get a direct answer here, perhaps call Uckele to double check.

I've gone between APF and Rainey Ginseng and not found it to be more cost effective. Just my experience. I was buying out of Canada and hope ithers have found effective product that is less expensive in the US.

You can get plain DC powder from herbalcom.com. Maybe try with White Willow also from same place.

I'm currently feeding 8 grams of DC and 3 ounces WW to my IR/PPID founder rehab with an old glut tear and beginnings of arthritis in the LH fetlock joint. We're doing pretty well on it, working for 1-2 hours trotting hills, etc and coming home with energy to spare and no residual effects next day.

Many of us have used OTC Naproxen Sodium (Aleve or generic) as well when we needed to stay on the NSAIDs. I used it for 31 y/o severely arthritic. It can do a good job on more advanced cases with less risk of intestinal difficulties but there is still long term risk. It may be an alternative to the Previcox if you find you have to stay on it.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/21966>

Wondered if you tried ALCar (Acetyl-L-Carnitine)? It could be used with the NSAIDs or DC and White WIllow. Supports energy, muscle and IR but may not be just the right thing for your issues.

<http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/message/124848>

The ligament and fibrotic issues maybe better served with Jherb and aakg (Dr K?) but that would be a different "mix".

HTH


Nancy C in NH
February 2003
Moderator

Visit our new site:
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

--- In EquineCushings@..., "lynnberghs" <lberghs@...> wrote:


So--need alternative to APF. Need alternative to PRevicox that can be used with the adaptogen. A Devil's Claw product without yucca? WitcheyLady, do you still offer yours? Have searched files and past messages, but couldn't come up with the right combination of products . . .


Re: Sleep crashing -- pergolide induced insomnia?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "kelleysayre" <kelleysayre@...> wrote:

Hi everyone,
Has anyone had any bad side effects with pergolide? I have a 24 y.o. TB mare diagnosed with Cushings (or possible EMS -- Cornell said more tests were needed, but the vet concluded it was Cushings) in Nov 2009.
Primary EMS in an underweight TB is highly unlikely. At her age, it certainly could be PPID but chronic infections like Lyme can also do it. What symptoms was she showing?

The max dose I can keep her on is 0.25mg per day. Above that, even 0.33mg, she'll go off her feed and act intoxicated, even falling down face first while I handwalk her.

Since April, she has had periodic bouts of "sleep crashing" - she stays awake on her feet so long, she won't lay down,
The going off feed is certainly common. "Depression" and "spaciness" are the most common things also described, but we have no way to tell if this is a nervous system effect or they just don't feel well because of something like nausea.

I don't think we've had insomnia reported before, but what you are describing is definitely sleep deprivation. Can't say for sure if it's drug related or behavioral. Does she have arthritis or any old injuries that would make it painful for her to get up and down?

I'd probably run another ACTH on her. Your dose is extremely low. If she does have PPID, she may be more obviously abnormal by now.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Lyme and Cushings

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "horseshoe_hollow" <horseshoehollow@...> wrote:

Has anyone made a connection between Lyme and Cushings? Cushings
being brought on by Lyme?
Not to my knowledge. How old were they? How was the diagnosis made? All chronic infections are associated with activation of inflammatory cytokines. This in turn is the mechanism behind the mild IR often found in horses with Lyme. The organism can also invade the nervous system but whether it would cause the specific loss of dopaminergic neurons that leads to PPID is unknown.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Lyme and Cushings

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "ambrasladd" <ambrasladd@...> wrote:


Low dose doxy has been proposed as a treatment for laminitis by a
number of researchers over the years. Nothing new there. Same
principle as Founderguard, a low dose virginamycin product developed
in AU. FG is thought to reduce the number of LAB (lactic acid
bacteria) in the gut � an over abundance of which may contribute to
grass founder.
Hi Liz,

That's actually not why doxycycline is used. Doxycycline has direct antiinflammatory effects even at half dose. It is also completely absorbed in the small intestine and would not reach the large bowel the way virginiamycin does unless the horse has an extremely rapid small intestinal transit time.

Eleanor in PA
www.drkellon.com
EC Co-owner
Feb 2001


Re: Sleep crashing -- pergolide induced insomnia?

Joan and Dazzle
 

Hi Kelley,

This doesn't sound like a side effect from pergolide. This sounds like a sleep disturbance issue. Horses that can't get up and down easily will frequently try to stay on their feet. They do this until they are so sleep deprived that they fall asleep.

This is also sometimes seen with older horses that are hypervigilant, or those that are over at the knee and unable to engage the stay mechanism to lock their legs.

Can you get the blood results from your vet? Call their office, get the numbers and post them here. The pergolide dose is very small. You need to be sure that the diagnosis is correct.

To encourage her to lay down, you want to check to see if she can get up and down, give her a safe place to sleep, and possibly make her a nice cushy bed.

Let us know how she's doing.

Joan and Dazzle
Anaheim, CA 2006

--- In EquineCushings@..., "kelleysayre" <kelleysayre@...> wrote:

She has been on pergolide since Jan 2010. The prescribed dose was 0.5mg a day, but she went off her feed and she was already 200lbs underweight in the middle of winter, so I took her off of it. A few weeks later, I started her gradually on it.

The max dose I can keep her on is 0.25mg per day. Above that, even 0.33mg, she'll go off her feed and act intoxicated, even falling down face first while I handwalk her.

Since April, she has had periodic bouts of "sleep crashing" - she stays awake on her feet so long, she won't lay down, and like a puppet on strings when the tension is let go, she crumples to the ground. She was ok until July, and then she got cast in her stall three times in three weeks.


Re: Leanne & Rani/Mandy

Joan and Dazzle
 

Hi Leanne,

If this were Dazzle, I'd increase the pergolide now. Since you are in Australia, you would be at the seasonal low. Is this a current ACTH number? Are you increasing the pergolide amount to account for the seasonal rise, then decreasing again? Are you currently on 2 mg, or was this last seasonal rise? Many people find that during the seasonal rise, the amount of pergolide has to go to almost double.

Great news on tightening up her diet. These little girls are sometimes a challenge to manage. It's so tempting to give her the little carrot and oats now and then, but we have to stay strong!

Joan and Dazzle
Anaheim, CA 2006

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Pauline" <takarri@...> wrote:
I am tightening up her diet. Getting very much less of the bad stuff! She has been sound for over a year and after initially getting her weight down she has maintained it.

I would just like to ask your ideas on whether i should increase her pergolide she is on 2mgs. Her ACTH at the moment is 60 in the seasonal rise she was on 1mg and it was 186. As she seems fine should I wait for next autumn/fall then increase it.

Kind regards Leanne n rani.


OTB cubes

beadhorse1
 

Hi any one here live near Reading Pa, where do you get your cubes from? Seems we may move to that area and will need a local feed store that carries them.
In my area of NJ two plus feed stores carry them and beet pulp plain.
ML


Re: Hoof Pads

beadhorse1
 

Super suggestion.
ML

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Lorna" <briars@...> wrote:



Wal*Mart is selling Green Seasons kneeling pads for #2.00 here in the Kingston area.They are 12"x16" . Their density is great for hoof pads taped on,and for standing on while work is being done.
They may even be good for boots which allow a thick pad.They are about 15/16 of an inch thick.

Bar code is 7 24248 50056 5

Lorna in Ontario
Support
2002


Re: Timothy with Alfalfa Cubes??

Mandy Woods
 

Jessica,
I feel so much better now knowing you can get hay! I didnt realize you were looking for a 'carrier' only! The cubes you've found fed at a small amount will probably not hurt Mia.

What breed is she? She looked Morganish in the photos. How tall is she? What does she weight tape today?

Did you open the Safe Feed file? 3a ??? I looked this morning at TX and found these stores:

Horaney's (ODTBC-advance order required)

301 W. Methvin Street

Longview, TX 75601

903 753 3661

Contact: Ron

www.alhoraneys.com

Stampede Feed and Ag Supply (Triple Crown products)

4136 Chandler Hwy (Hwy 31)

Tyler, TX 75702

Office: 903 592 1742

Mobile: 903 343 1467

Owner: Tom Lusty

East Texas Ag Supply, Inc

418 N. Underwood

Athens, TX 75751

903 657 5777

UTAH


I know you dont need to worry about the ODTB cubes now. Test some hay to see how the ESC/S rates and the Iron and Manganese.

Mandy in VA
EC First Responder
OCT 2003


Re: Leanne & Rani/Mandy

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Leanne,
Its good to see Rani's numbers improving and both of you sound to go out riding!

What month was the last ACTH to give you 60 ? August? That is very close to the lab normals but not quite within the range. You should be in the optimal season for ACTH to be lowest. I am not a vet ~ and I dont know how often you test ~ but raising pergolide .25 mgs should get Rani closer to the normal range of 9 - 35 pg/ml.

Mandy in VA
EC First Responder
OCT 2003


Re: Leanne & Rani/Mandy

Pauline <takarri@...>
 

I am posting this on Leanne & Ranis behalf- she tried to post it herself, but it seemed to have disappeared in to cyperspace- Pauline


Thanks Mandy for responding to Ranis history.
I have been lurking on the site for over a year and have learnt a lot. I did post last July whilst Rani was at university post op. I believe it got lost in translation. I am tightening up her diet. Getting very much less of the bad stuff! She has been sound for over a year and after initially getting her weight down she has maintained it. I came out of retirement to get back in the saddle to exercise her; I'm sure with the change in diet plus the exercise it has all helped to keep her sound and happy.

I would just like to ask your ideas on whether i should increase her pergolide she is on 2mgs. Her ACTH at the moment is 60 in the seasonal rise she was on 1mg and it was 186. As she seems fine should I wait for next autumn/fall then increase it.

Kind regards Leanne n rani.


Re: Charlies hay analysis + new bloodwork results

Linda <PapBallou@...>
 


Finally got my computer back, and just posted my hay analysis. Comes in at 19.7 WSC+starch...Yikes!
Leanne -

The numbers to be concerned about are ESC+starch, so you end up with 10+1.9 = 11.9. This might be OK for some horses, but I would continue to soak.

The amount of alfalfa you are feeding is really jacking the calcium way way up and out of balance. Actually, without running the numbers but just eyeballing this hay, the major minerals are probably unusually spot on, with maybe just a little tweeking. The traces are typical for your area with highish manganese.

I would decrease the alf to one pound for now - 5 pounds is definitely not balancing your hay but unbalancing your hay. It also is adding more starch to this diet. You will need some protein, but that can be added by whey protein.

Post the other hay when you have the results and then we can balance the hay that is more appropriate for your situation.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Rafiq's Hoof Pictures uploaded (Aug 2010)

Carolyn Larson
 

Blue thanks you for the compliment, but the most thanks go to his sainted farrier and the person who brought that farrier to downeast Maine - one of the moderators, Nancy Collins. And if the pictures show how very important it is to (a) lower the heels, (b) get rid of the wedge, and (c) bring the toes back, then it is just, in part, paying it forward to this list and its members. Sadly, it took so long to get the proper care that what Dr. Clougher said about the de-mineralizing of the coffin bone has happened with Blue. I cannot emphasize enough, as an owner, not a farrier, that getting the proper trim is critical - and pursue that, no matter how much it takes. It may save your horse. Not doing it can bring the opposite.

Carol and Blue in Maine
EC List Support/Moderator
Nov. 2005

At 11:15 PM 8/28/2010, you wrote:
I am so glad you put this up. Now I finally know what is meant by a
wedge. And the photos are great - Blue is a beauty! Beau's heel has come
down quite a bit and I am ready for the farrier to start bringing the
heel down.if this one won't get that darn heel down and the toes back.

Elva & Beau
June 2004
New Mexico


Charlies hay analysis + new bloodwork results

 

Finally got my computer back, and just posted my hay analysis. Comes in at 19.7 WSC+starch...Yikes!

Charlies file on ECHistory3 is under "Daniel Haskins DVM Washington" and the hay analysis is named "Charlie 2010 Hay Analysis.pdf"

The hay is "local" grass hay (orchard/timothy) grown here on Camano Island...Pacific NW. The local Ag.Extension agent seems very well informed on hay analysis for our two county area,and she says my hay is typical "highland" hay and the analysis is also typical of this area.
She says the only way to cause lower sugar/starch values in this area, is to cut hay very early in the morning, which few farmers are willing to do because it means longer drying time. Many horse owners purchase all their hay from Eastern Washington.

I feed Charlie 21 lbs of dry weight, consisting of 5 lbs Eastern Alfalfa and 16 lbs of the "local" grass hay which analysis I posted. All hay is fed after proper soaking, and divided into three feedings through the day. I feed the Alfalfa per recommendation from extension agent to balance the protein/calc/phos of my grass hay.

Please look at my hay analysis. I am eager for your feedback.

Re: Recent bloodwork results. In early June, 2010, Charlies bloodwork showed 117glucose/197 insulin.
This past week, August 23, bloodwork results were 107glucose/67 insulin. I am rejoicing in the improvement. We're not where it needs to be, but are headed in the right directions, and his clinical symptoms are improving as well. I could go into that more, but instead want to concentrate on the hay analysis.

btw...I'm hunting all over for hay that comes analyized with WSC+starch at 10%, but no luck so far. I'm awaiting hay analysis on some Eastern Washington hay as well.

Thank you for everything.....
Leanne & Charlie
Camano Island, WA
June 2010