Hi Gina
When the crest of these horses fall over, I've seen it on donkeys too, its called a fallen crest. Somtimes quick weight loss causes this but maybe genetics also? Not sure what else would cause the crest to fall, maybe someone else does. One of my biggest fears for my two andalusians. Doesn't change who there are, just there looks.
candy 2010 michigan

I agree.

From the studies I've read the form may be key-
From what I can glean from the literature, high Chromiun yeast ( which Uckele's product is ) may be the form that actually might do something - but the other forms - no.

Barb (VT)
Aug 2001

--- In EquineCushings@..., Mulemagic@... wrote:

However, this morning I gave her a handful of split peas, and that seemed
to interest her. I assume that's OK - I know there are some protein
considerations there, but, at least, not iron and (hopefully) not sugar/starch?

Split peas would be an excellent alternative. A cup or two per day should be OK.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

Hi mandy,
what is the flex seed for? no I'm not feeding flex. I have her feet on easy ride RX boots and I did go to  lows and get new padding for her but I'm going to get the soft boot for her, did you know were I can get some used???
on the smart paks. This was a easy way of going to get her vits and min in her. I dont mind spending the extra money on this, till I get the hay tested. just to make sure shes getting everything she needs, is this wrong? I will give her more cubs then. the bp  I soak it but I also rinse  it when its done soaking to clean it out and I use my spi strainer for it. when I had her test done last time she was on a regular diet, lots of pasture grass/ clover, hay, and her grain. now she is on timothy cubs for grain with pb and her hay, soaked for 1 1/2 or more hours a day it's timothy mixed hay,  she gets some 4 times a day. about 18 to 20 pounds total a day. I have and the blacksmith has seen some changes in her. she lost weight and her neck is softer and has went down some. the fat pockets on her one is gone and the others have gone down some. I will get photos of her feet and post them tonight.  i know how to do that. I have her diet as tight as it can
be. the only thing I can think of it she is on a daily wormer because
in the past she would colic and with it she did'nt. so I'm afraid to take her off it. I don't need to deal with that too. the vet said that it was ok. what is you knowledge on this I have had her since she was 9 months old. the pergolite. when I put her on this, this is when I notice she was not drinking as much as she was. so I know I can't go clod turkey but how fast can I take her off of this. shes only getting a small small scoop of it 1x a day. advice please. what did you mean I might need it for the season change?
 thats again soooooooo so much..
Sue
oh 6/10

Sue,
Omega Horseshine is stabilized flax seed. Are you feeding flax? Its on the
Temporary Emergency Diet. The cheapest flax is whole seed from the feed
store. You grind it fresh before each meal. Feed 2 oz a day.

Can you ask your feed store manager if he can get a 50 pound bag of flax
seed
for you and a 50 pound bag of Magnesium/Oxide 56%.

I sent you the link to Soft_Ride Boots yesterday. First you need to
measure her feet. http://www.soft-ride.com/ In the meantime you can
go to Lowes and get a linear foot of rubber padding. ITs called
anti-fatique mat in the carpet section. It costs less than $5. You can trace her foot and cut
many pads. You can double them if its more comfortable for her. Duct tape
these to here feet. Practice is
required! You can also powder her feet with Gold Bond medicated foot
powder (Walmart) before taping on the pads. This helps keep her feet dry and
'greeblies' from growing.

Dont order any more Smart Pak vitamin E or Smart Control Pellets. We will
try to switch
you over when you get your hay analysis back. Get the human gelcaps of Vit E, natural, 1000
iu's. Feed two a day.

Rinse/soak/rinse the beet pulp even if it says PLAIN. It still has molasses
and dirt in it. Use a colander over a 5 gallon bucket. I used hot water.
Works faster. You can feed more ODTB cubes. 4 cups a day isnt much. Is she eating
her soaked/drained grass hay?

You did not have an
eACTH test but rather a cortisol test. Not the same test. Taper off the
pergolide. At age 13 she may need it for the seasonal rise.
Have the vet back out for an eACTH test. Chromium can be
stopped. Concentrate on getting her Diet tight. Her insulin was 300. You need
to get that lowered.

Please post pictures of her feet. Put the camera on the ground 12 inches away from her foot. Take photos at 9 oclock (lateral photo) and a sole shot. Put them in her Case History File.

Mandy in VA
EC First Responder
OCT 2003

Based on comments here, I really do not need to add any. The consensus by the list experts is it will not help with IR.
I am using it because I read opinions and advice from others, it might help some. Since it will cause no harm, I will feed some.
RogerR
TN June 10

--- In EquineCushings@..., "litewriterrs" <litewriterrs@...> wrote:

Did your vet suggest cutting back, or are you seeing something that made you do so? Sorry, it seems one answer leads to another question <g>.

Jennifer:

<<As to the bermuda pellets, I will look around. What would be the replacement
rate of the pellets for her 10 pounds of hay per feeding? How long can soaked
pellets hang around the drylot before they begin to spoil, keeping in mind that
my morning temperatures are in the 80's and regular daytime temps are running
near 100? If they cannot last in the heat for a couple of hours, then we would
have a problem. Right now, she leaves about a cup of bp in her feed dish so I
wonder if she would be up to eating that much wet food. >>

Look at mountainsunrise.com.  They have a good product in all types of pellets. 
They say they don't use binders, but they are compressed pretty tight.  I used
the Bermuda pellets for about 8 months, and it only took about 5 min to soften
with cool water.  Personally, I moisten/soak (your preference) but always feed
within 10 min.  I was soaking the ODTBC and putting in the refrigerator
overnight and before I left for work.  Bbut now I have a crusher for the cubes
and don't have to do that.  (I have a choker and can't take any chances.)  With
the heat you have there, I would definately be concerned about fermentation and
other issues. 


 I always weigh their food.  Much easier than guessing.  A hanging weight scale
is best and when I was feeding hay I always weighed that too.  Scales are not
that much (about $15-$25) and worth it. 


FYI:  I did have an issue with Mountain Sunrise once and tested the pellets from
the same lab they use, one batch came back higher in s/s and another batch came
in lower - go figure.  I stopped using them because they would not call me back
when I wanted to discuss it with them.  Then the phone always just rang and rang
and no voicemail, so I suspect I was not the only one.  I was told early on that
they are strick on their testing because their product is shipped overseas to
all the fancy expensive foreign horse facilities.  The FDA requires that they
test before they are packaged because of the overseas shipping.  I guess you
have to trust what they tell you???? 


At the time I was not properly supplementing with the EC Groups recommendations,
and using another product.  So, the changes that I wanted were not necessarily
their fault, but mine.  That was a lesson well learned.  If I could not get the
ODTBC, I would consider using them again. 


Compare their minerals with ODTBC and stick with the EC Groups recommendations
on Flax/Vit E/salt, see how that goes, and if needed get recommendations for
other supplements. 

 Pam
June 2010
NorCal - Gold Country





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,
does anyone know were I can find the solf ride equine boots. new at a good price or used. she has small hoofs.
thanks
sue
oh 6/10

hi Mandy,
I'm going to give her the salt today, I have some. what is the omega horse shine? I will order the solf ride boots today.  ok I will start from the top. she gets about 2 cups of the timithy balance cubs  for breakfast and dinner, there is some bp mixed in but only about 1/4 cups, she really hates the bp. I get it plain and soak it in water before feeding it to her. instead of grain. her hay is soaked. she gets no grass or anything else. but her vita smart multi-vitamin & minerals this is for horses with IR, no grain,no  sugary treats and no grass. also I got smartcontrol IR pellets, I give her this also, in hopes to help her. I don't know why shes on the pergolide and chruminum? the vet said it could only help.( I thought) and cost me$$$$$$$ I no longer have this vet. I have another vet, he said she does not really need this stuff, but never said to quit giving it to her.  he is coning out again early aug to take another set of x-rays and run her
insulin teating since she has been on the diet. in hopes that it went down. I would like to take her off the meds but can I stop cold turkey????. in her photos, her round pen has grass around it, it no longer has grass anywhere near it. she does get to go out, now with no muzzle. holes was tape so she could not get any grass.
she got trimmed last Wednesday and the blacksmith said she was completely balanced now but she really hurt now. I did gave her 1 but tab this morning, she's not on the j herb, its coming early this week. I know no bute with j herb.  she is really bad today. anyone have any help?>?>?>
any help or advice , princess and I would really appreciate it.
sue
oh 6/10

--- In EquineCushings@..., Brandi Bryant <bbryant573@...> wrote:

I went to Wal-Mart and I found the following in Flax Seed...  which one should I
get?

All of these are Spring Valley
Cold Milled Organic Ground Flax Seed

You'll probably spend way more than you need to if you buy these. Do you have a feed store in your area? If so, see if they carry whole flax seed. This is the least expensive option, but with whole flax seed, you'll need to grind it yourself using a coffee grinder. You can grind a week's worth and store in the fridge. The other options are to find either Omega Horseshine (probably in a feed store catering to horse people) or NutraFlax from HorseTech. <http://www.horsetech.com/nutra-flax.htm> If you order from HorseTech, get a container of Poly copper 12.7% and Poly zinc 22% too. <http://www.horsetech.com/popular-customs.htm>

Even if I soaked/rinsed and rinsed and rinsed would I get all the molasses out of the BP?  And if I get the BP and s/r/s/r can I mix it with his WellSolve?  Would it make him fuller?- can I soak the BP, drain it and put it in a tuberware container along with the vit/min and leave it over night so my BO can just put it in with the WellSolve? 

Yes to all. We used to make up huge vats of BP. Once it was all rinsed and soaked, etc., we would pack these large containers with enough to feed 3 horses and freeze them. I could store 2 weeks at a time. It took about 3 days to thaw in the refrigerator, so I would just rotate one out of the freezer to the fridge 3 days in advance. It keeps well in the refrigerator, about a week, so your plan is a good one. You can mix it with the Wellsolve and yes, it should make him feel fuller and more satisfied.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC List Support Team/Moderator
Missouri - Dec 2005
http://www.ecirhorse.com/

Linda, (and anyone else who would like to chime in)I wanted to post about my sweet Spanish Gaited Pony mare "Seniorita" to get more advice...It has been several weeks now and she continues to be very painful and I have had to have her on daily bute now for at least three or four weeks. The bute helps her considerably but obviously is just helping her to be more comfortable and not to get better. She still is up most all day but moves carefully and slowly. Her attitude is still good and she is affectionate and playful with me but does not move around. I have continued to trim her feet working on keeping the heels down and the leverages off the toe. Her feet "look" so good compared to the past but her comfort level tells the real story.
So,she is getting soaked Teff hay. The hay was tested at 7% (not by me)but I am soaking it anyway. She also gets some RSR beet pulp. that's all right now and no supplements. I know this is not a good permanent diet but thought it would get things controlled. She is always hungry but her body condition looks good. Suggestions here?
I guess I have exhausted the "free" options I have with her. I have done all I can do without the vet and she's not getting better. Okay, so I said I was not going to be able to spend any money on her but now I find that the alternative would be to put her down and she's not ready for that and I am way too attached to her now to do that without at least a basic workup.I will put some extra hours in at work!
I was assuming she was straight IR since she has many symptoms of that physically. Wouldn't a strict diet correct that over time though? She's getting worse rather than better so maybe more is going on. I considered Cushings as something that diet alone would not help but she's not that old and has no tell tale symptoms like long hair coat. Is it something I should still think about?
Here is what I was thinking: let me know if I am on the right path...I will get a vet out and get front feet films and blood test for cushings and IR. I am new to town here and don't have a vet but can get a reccomendation. When I tested my other mare a few years back I had to do the blood myself in order to get it done right. I had a small animal vet friend who let me use their equipment and name for processing. I don't have that option any more so I hope I can get it done correctly!Is there anything else very important I am missing that should take priority? Any suggestions.
I am so sad watching her hobble around. It was so great to watch her progress so nicely at first when I got her off the pasture and got her feet under control. It just seemed like she would heal right up and have a good life. Now I just think about her pain constantly and want so much to see her run around again and feel good. It is very stressful and I really want to help her!

Lydia
California Central Coast
Member since Oct 2007

I left one off -- he also gets 20,000 mg spirulina.

****She's iron overload *and* IR? If your forage isn't overloaded with iron
(?) I'd probably lean towards the Lite. Same answer if her insulin is sky
high. What about a few hay cubes or alfalfa pellets to convince her to eat?
They wouldn't have added iron and the s/s should be lower.****

Yes, she's both. My forage is bermuda hay, and I'm happy if I can find it
under 200 ppm iron. Currently she gets 12 lbs of hay that's 121 ppm and 5
lbs of hay that's 175 ppm, each day. Nancy has balanced my minerals, so I'm
confident that we're doing the best we can in that department.

To get her to "clean up", I need a very small size pellet - something the
size of an alfalfa cube or pellet she just picks out, leaves the rest. And
she won't eat anything that has been moistened enough to be soft (and small).
However, this morning I gave her a handful of split peas, and that seemed
to interest her. I assume that's OK - I know there are some protein
considerations there, but, at least, not iron and (hopefully) not sugar/starch?

Katie Reid
Ramona, CA
Member since 8/08

"Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible." --Dalai Lama

Still no results to post to the case history. I sent a note with my bill payment (and a lot of questions -- poor Lyle!) requesting a copy of the test results. Hope to receive them soon.

Paulie is eating about 4.5 pounds of washed beet pulp per day in 2 feedings (I surely hope I can get a load w/o molasses this fall after the harvest!) with about 1/2 pound of wheat bran to balance phosphorus to calcium. My hay is about half alfalfa (cannot get grass hay around here, and will test when I find new supplier for the coming year), but when I asked, the vet did not think that soaking it was necessary. I haven't yet found the general numbers for hay in this area -- any ideas on links (NW Wyoming?) BTW, he's a 17.3 hand 24 yo TB, very narrow, who now weighs around 1050. He should be weighing about 1200, and definitely lost weight this past year when the PPID seemed to kick in full force. I think once that's under control, he'll no longer show as IR, but for now, safety first.

Ok, back to supplements. Without going into all they whys, he's receiving: 3 TBSP table salt, 4000 mg chondro, 8000 mg glucosamine, about 6250 mg Ascorbic acid (Vit C), 6250 mg bee pollen, 6250 mg carrot powder, 3250 mg citrus bioflavinid, 2125 mg hesperidin, and 35 mg of rutin (Vit P) -- all of which are in a product called C-Complex from Springtime; about 4000 mg of tienchi at each meal (Breather powder -- this appears to have stopped the nosebleeds!); 9430 mg MSM; 50 mg Biotin Plus (from Paragon); 2500 IU Vit E (it's in alfalfa meal, but amounts to about 2 TBSP.); 3 oz Omega's (Vita-Flex) which adds another 900 IU of vit E, 3 g of Omega 6 and 13.5 g of Omega 3; about 1.5 oz garlic (half each meal); 1 oz chaste tree berries ground up 2x/day; and Strongid C2X. Also 1/2 cup corn oil on each meal. I'll add the chromium once it gets here. Oh,and I give him a course (7 days) of Sand Clear every 30 days -- my 'pasture' is sandy and if I try to feed hay in bins, they simply pick it up and put it on the ground anyway.

I hope/suspect that once the PPID is under control, the IR condition will go away. I'll post some photos later, and you'll be able to see how much he's lost weight in the past year (poor baby, but the energy is still there). Anything else I can do/increase/add that will help him gain weight? Our winters here get pretty cold, sub-zero, and although they have the run-in for shelter AND I blanketed him last winter every time I knew it was going below 20, I'd like for him to have a bit more weight by fall.

Speaking of pasture, I don't have to worry about grass. They nose around after the hay is gone (feeding about 22 - 25 pounds/horse/day now), but they might get a handful of grass (if that, dry spring) and they nibble the new sprouts on the sage. Otherwise, well, I used to let them both graze a grassy area that's about 3'x10', but now Paulie doesn't get to. He's getting grass pellets for treats (maybe an ounce) instead of Pasture Cookies. Is there anything else that might trigger a laminitis attack that I should look out for?

Randi & Paulie
Wyoming
Feb 2010

Dr K, Thank you for your kind words.

I will give the vet a call to see if he is open to a trial of pergolide. If not, should I try a round of CTB, and if is what amount would be appropriate.

As to the bermuda pellets, I will look around. What would be the replacement rate of the pellets for her 10 pounds of hay per feeding? How long can soaked pellets hang around the drylot before they begin to spoil, keeping in mind that my morning temperatures are in the 80's and regular daytime temps are running near 100? If they cannot last in the heat for a couple of hours, then we would have a problem. Right now, she leaves about a cup of bp in her feed dish so I wonder if she would be up to eating that much wet food.

Vet did check her teeth, and they were OK but may need to be done on November ranch call was his comment. They were last done in March 2009.

Do you think I should continue with my thought that she is both PPID and IR? Or, should I really consider her to be only PPID at this point, in which case that opens the feeding regimine somewhat, correct? If so, would you consider her to be a candidate for your "senior horse diet"?

Thank you for your time and thoughts.
Jennifer
Austin TX
fall 2009
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory2/files/j_krou/

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Roger Rittenhouse vmaxept" <roger@...> wrote:

The dose scoop in the bucket is 10 g of 'product' The Chrom is 3mg per scoop. I cut it back to 1/2 a scoop now (5g product) . So I am giving 1.5. mg of Chrom.
I guess I could weigh it now that I have a scale.

Ah, thanks, that makes more sense. Did your vet suggest cutting back, or are you seeing something that made you do so? Sorry, it seems one answer leads to another question <g>.

Randi & Paulie
Wyoming
Feb 2010
(hah, I remembered <G>)

I went to Wal-Mart and I found the following in Flax Seed...  which one should I
get?

All of these are Spring Valley
Cold Milled Organic Ground Flax Seed

Made with Nautral Cold Pressed Vegetarian Flax Oil Natural Omega 3

Made With Organic Flax Oil...


I went to one of the feed stores and they had beet pulp with MOLASSES - they did
not have plain molasses.  Even if I soaked/rinsed and rinsed and rinsed would I
get all the molasses out of the BP?  I was thinking about giving him some beet
pulp to give him some extra fiber. 

And if I get the BP and s/r/s/r can I mix it with his WellSolve?  Would it make
him fuller, I think he thinks that I'm starving him!!  I have 2 big hay bags
that I feel as full as I can get them and I put both of them out so he'll have
something to munch on through out the day.  Another concern about BP that I have
is, my BO feeds at 8 in the morning - and I'm at work by that time - can I soak
the BP, drain it and put it in a tuberware container along with the vit/min and
leave it over night so my BO can just put it in with the WellSolve? 


Thank you
Brandi
Bartlesville, OK
 06/2010





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My 22 year old Dutch WB mare, Fanci, was diagnosed with Cushings last year. She is on Pergolide and a very controlled diet and is doing great!
However, the arthritis in her fetlocks and hocks is getting a bit painful for her. With any other horse, I would just go right ahead and do steroid joint injections. My vet told me that she recommends against joint injections in Cushinoid horses, and that preferred treatment is Legend or Adequan. But then she countered that with telling me the chances of adverse reactions to the joint injections are very slim.
Now I am a little confused. I want to make my girl as comfortable and happy as possible, she deserves it. Any advice would be most appreciated!

Hi Gina -

These pictures remind me very much of the neck on the Morgan at my barn. As does your description: "Templado's was so big it flopped to one side." Something that appears to be completely separate from the musculature of the neck?

Shannon, Rafiq and Majik
Houston 2009
EC History3:  http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory3/files/Rafiq%20and%20Majik/
Website:  www.EquiJourneys.com