Date   

Re: New to group/"Katie"

papballou <PapBallou@...>
 

This pony is the love of my 4 year old daughter's life and I want her to get better again!
Christen -

Just a quick note - New Years Day I brought home a Shetland pony with similar story that was to be put down. She clearly was foundered by the shape of her feet. In four days after changing her to a low s/s diet and starting her on jiaogulan, she took off running and hasn't stopped yet. Well, yes, she has stopped, but you know what I mean - and she has lost 83 pounds! She's sound as can be and just spent the weekend taking my granddaughter for rides.

So just take a deep breath and follow what Mandy laid out for you. Ponies are tough little critters...

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: J-herb

papballou <PapBallou@...>
 

I will try it before a meal. Is it OK to mix it in a spoon of applesauce?

Hi Teresa -

I know some list members have to hide it in a little applesauce or as icing on a safe cookie to get it into their horse. I 'spect it's the same with humans. It is indeed bitter! But my horses loved it when I had them on it.

Hope it helps you. My husband has similar problems with his hands but he won't do anything about it...

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Grazing muzzle plug

arak331 <arak331@...>
 

I think that Best Friends Equine sells a plug for their muzzles, or you
can put a piece of duct tape over the hole. I don't like taping the
hole of the muzzle shut. I've done two alternatives, both which involve
putting a "plate" in the bottom of the muzzle. The first one will allow
a little grass to come through, since I made the hole in it slightly
smaller in diameter than the hole in the bottom of the muzzle. The
second one has a few smaller holes.

The first is a plastic hoof pad. I used a circular bit to drill a hole
to match the one on the muzzle, with a slightly smaller diameter:
http://www.bedfordtack.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=177_319_183&pr\;
/ oducts_id=728&osCsid=67fc916e19bbbba597c20f0a35c4488b
<http://www.bedfordtack.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=177_319_183&p\;
roducts_id=728&osCsid=67fc916e19bbbba597c20f0a35c4488b>

Recently I also bought some pads for Farah's boots from Gene Ovinek's
site, but they weren't what I was expecting. But, I can also use those
the same way. You can see it at
http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/edss/store/lameprod.html
<http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/edss/store/lameprod.html> Scroll down
to the "NB Perforated Pads" to see what I'm speaking of. You might have
to trim it to size for your muzzle.

Aunt Farah finds both to be a bit frustrating at first, but she's happy
to be out with her buddy, and not always confined to the dirt lot, and
she does move around with him.

Namaste,
em


--- In EquineCushings@..., Pamela Raines <pbjkraines@...>
wrote:

Where did you get the plug for your muzzle?


Re: New to group/"Katie"

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Christen,
Welcome to the group. We can help you help Katie. Since she's a pony we
can assume for now that she is IR> At age 12 she is a candidate for
Cushings. Since we're in the seasonal rise, it is quite possible that her
ACTH level is over the top because of the rise so putting her on pergolide
may be what will stop the inflammation.

The list protocol is DDT/E. Diagnosis is by bloodwork, Diet is low
sugar/starch/fat, Trim is a low heel and short toe, and Exercise is
controlled IF she's able.

The bloodwork she should have is an ACTH test, insulin and glucose and a
thyroid panel. Schedule this early in the week, in a quiet barn, 3 hours
after eating a low s/s diet. We recommend Cornell for testing. There is a
bloodtesting file you should read and print off for your vet. When you get
the results back, post to the list .

You should start her on the Temporary Emergency Diet or the Ontario Dehy
Timothy Balance Cubes (lavender label). Soaking untested hay for one hour
in cold water will reduce the sugar up to 30%. The ER minerals, Vitamin E,
loose iodized salt, magnesium and flax seed (ground) can be purchased at
Walmart. Rinsed/soaked/rinsed beetpulp can be your carrier for her
minerals. The ODTB cubes are already balanced if you choose to use that
feed. No soaking required. Just add Vitamin E, salt and flax seed
(ground). Katie should not have any pasture. No grazing, no grain, no
treats (apples,carrots,cookies) and no red salt blocks.
I do not knowwhat is in Enrick 32 but you should stop it for now. The
OmegaHorseshine can be your flax for now.
If you put her on the pasture for even a minute, tape the hole shut on her
muzzle so she cannot get any grass. Even the sides may need to be woven
shut! You can cold hose her feet for her comfort. You can put her in
boots from the BuildaBear store and cut pads to fit them. Trace her foot,
go to Lowes and get some antifatigue matting in the carpet section (its on a
roll). Cut a pad from her tracing and put it in the boot (sneaker). Now
she'll have something comfortable to stand on!

Your goal Christen is to have her on a custom diet of minerals that
compliment her hay. Since you're in a boarding barn, this may present with
a challenge but it can be done! You can store her hay at home? or at the
barn? and then take a hay sample from your hay and have it tested at
www.equi-analytical.com for # 603 the Trainer. Minerals would be balanced
to that assay. You will want to buy at least 6 months of hay. She's small
so that wont be that much. Or the easiest is the ODTB cubes.

If you implement the DDT/E's and follow them all, there is no reason why Katie
can not become sound again. It will take atleast one year, it will be hard
work and you'll have ups and downs but it can be done. Your daughter may
not ride her yet, but she can spend hours grooming her and sitting and
talking with her. It takes a year to grow out a hoof.

When you get a chance, please fill out the questionnaire at ECH2. You will need
to join this group.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory2/

Keep a journal and take photos of her. Ask questions as they arise. We've
been on this journey and are committed to helping new people.

Mandy in VA
EC First Responder
OCT 2003


Re: New to group/"Katie"

Jo Anne Ernsberger
 

In a message dated 9/7/2009 11:37:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
christenmilligan@... writes:

She is currently eating soaked hay (untested since we get our hay from
various sources at our boarding stable), 1 cup Enrich 32 (2x's daily) for
vitamins/minerals


Hi, Christen,

I am not far from you - Bear, DE. Welcome.

Would there be a way you can test and supply the hay, and get her into a
paddock of her own? NO GRASS whatsoever.

Google this person: Dawn Willoughby - 4 sweet Feet. She is a natural
trimmer who is from N. Wilmington, and I'm thinking she might be a piece to
Katie's puzzle. You mentioned she is getting balanced trims, but didn't
say if it was a trimmer savvy to all this laminitis and founder stuff.

I am not familiar with Enrich, but the folks on the board, here, will tell
you that a complete diagnosis and balance of minerals is the way to go.
It sounds like you're getting some good information, but keep in mind it
needs to be rather "customized" to suit each horse's needs.

I wish you the very best in this journey - there is hope, if we're
diligent.

JoAnne
DE - 7.09


J-herb

Teresa Jessee <tjessee@...>
 

-----

Linda wrote:
J loses effectiveness if mixed with other feed, especially anything that's a bit concentrated. Fed on an empty stomach - 20 minutes before eating, or two hours after completing a *meal* is the correct and most consistent way to achieve results.

Linda,
I guess this is why the J-herb has not improved the circulation in my fingers(Raynauld's syndrome). I will try it before a meal. Is it OK to mix it in a spoon of applesauce?
Teresa
Sw Ohio
Oct 08


Re: Insulin Glucose Draw

Stuart Jacob <sjacob1875@...>
 

________________________________
From: Pamela Raines <pbjkraines@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Monday, September 7, 2009 6:44:15 PM
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] Re: Insulin Glucose Draw


Where did you get the plug for your muzzle?

--- On Mon, 9/7/09, Stuart Jacob <sjacob1875@yahoo. com> wrote:

Best Friend Equine Supply. I think it was about $10.00


Re: Yahoo search - was Insulin level increased dramatically!

Don <don@...>
 

E McCutcheon wrote:
Thanks Donald, but I'm already aware of this information (but other may not be). What I was trying to do was search *this group* for specific information with regard to pergolide and insulin. Since it is a Yahoo group, I'm limited to doing a 'yahoo' search within the group.
Namaste,
em
Winchester TN / April 2004
Opps! You'd think I'd learn to read a thread before answering an individual post.

Donald, 06/08, Pacific Northwest U.S.
--

This msg scanned for viruses using
AVG before posting.


New to group/"Katie"

christenmilligan
 

Hello everyone,
I am fairly new to the group, have sort of just been reading for the past few weeks to get a grip on IR/Cushings. Our sweet little 11.2 hand, 12 year old Welsh Pony "Katie" foundered about a month ago (we are certain she had previously also) and we were getting suspicious that she was either IR or Cushings right before this happened (has the cresty, hard neck too). She has not been tested yet as our vets (New Bolton/University of PA) suggested that we should test after December. She is currently eating soaked hay (untested since we get our hay from various sources at our boarding stable), 1 cup Enrich 32 (2x's daily) for vitamins/minerals and Omega Horseshine (2oz). She has a 6 degree rotation of the coffin bone in both fronts with a bony growth off the tip of each coffin bone. She was already being cared for by a podiatrist before this bought of founder and is getting a balanced trim. She was very high on her heels and is slowly being taken down.
For the past 3 weeks she has been doing well (she's been stall bound) but had a setback after being allowed on turnout for an hour (muzzled) for 2 days. Two days ago she had a lot of trouble walking and had digital pulses. Yesterday she seemed a lot better but today she had digital pulses again and heat in her left front (but was walking better). She is getting out for short walks.
I hope that I gave enough information. I am sure we are not doing everything right so please give me any feedback you can! We are following the vets orders to the letter...
This pony is the love of my 4 year old daughter's life and I want her to get better again! We got her because my daughter has a brain tumor and thought riding would help her get through some physical issues she was having (which is has:). We have two other horses (10 year old TB and 18 year old QH).
Thanks!
Christen
Media, PA
Katie-12 year old Welsh Pony (Possible IR?)


Re: High Iron of 2,240 ppm

papballou <PapBallou@...>
 

I just got my hay test back from equ-analytical.? The iron test was 2,240 pm.? I am calling them tomorrow to discuss.?
Hi -

That is really high. I would definitely think there is sample contamination - maybe a chunk of dirt was in one of the cores you obtained...any chance some of the sample was taken up off the floor? Probe has been kept clean and dry?

Yes, definitely talk with them and see if they can re-run what they have there. There is always a possibility of precision equipment error. Otherwise, I would at least test for iron again.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


High Iron of 2,240 ppm

Merileejk
 

I just got my hay test back from equ-analytical.? The iron test was 2,240 pm.? I am calling them tomorrow to discuss.? I used the stainless steel hay probe I purchased from them a few years ago. Hay was late cut timothy-grass mix.? I think the highest iron I have had in the past was 226.? Is it possible to have hay test thay high for iron??



Merilee, Apache and Chiefs Mr Pepper in Central NY.? A member since 2004 or 2005.


Re: Exercise for Recovering horse

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., OasisGroup@... wrote:

Kathleen,

Wow .. really? I have thought of that kind of job for Fancy -- rather than the weight of a rider, per se. Good grief. . . you've read my mind.

I am wondering about this diligently. . .
You betcha. Obviously, you should be driving on soft, grassy fields vs. hard pavement if post laminitic. Nice sensible walking to start, no big hills, can't beat it!

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC Support Team
MO - Dec 2005


Re: Intro

papballou <PapBallou@...>
 

I was already going to change to holistic feeding, but will just modify it a bit to include the BP.

Hi Lynette -

Welcome to the group. Before getting into the feeding philosophy, can you share a bit about what holistic feeding is? Not certain what that is. I know there are a few who suggest feeding all sorts of vegetables, but the horse is made to eat grass. Our goal is to fill the nutritional blanks in a forage-based diet so the diet is balanced. We do that with an analysis of the forage.

I had a mare off the BLM - I lost her to IR, but I didn't know then what I know now, and she was 9. IR horses can be bred, but simply being pregnant can induce or worsen the IR. If you hope to go that route, you will need to have as tight a control over your mare's health as is possible and you need to start with a diagnosis by bloodwork...the first of DDT/E.

Second D is diet, which we'll explain more fully but again need to understand holistic feeding. Maybe we're talking the same thing; maybe not.

T - Trim...short toe/low heel.

E - exercise as able. This is a huge key in keeping IR horses doing well.

OK - just a brief intro to getting your mare's concerns sorted out. More to come, so take a deep breath. It really won't be all that difficult...

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004


Re: Exercise for Recovering horse

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., brass-ring-farm@... wrote:

I am real happy she feels so good, but how to do I exercise her without riding? I can't take her for long walks, because now I have an ankle that needs help. I could lunge her, but I can't think of anything else.

Valerie,

You might consider driving. When I was walking my gelding while he was recovering from IR and laminitis, I got to thinking that I might as well be teaching him something while we're out there walking up and down and down and up. I started hanging harness on him, one piece at a time and before too long, I was line driving him. A few months later I put him to a cart and the rest is history. He is, first and foremost, a riding horse, but he has a second career as a driving horse. IR and laminitis are now behind us thanks to the steady work.

This really worked out well as I had an injury 2 years after breaking him to drive and while I couldn't ride, I could still drive and keep him working.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
EC Support Team
MO - Dec 2005


Re: Insulin Glucose Draw

Pamela Raines <pbjkraines@...>
 

Where did you get the plug for your muzzle?

--- On Mon, 9/7/09, Stuart Jacob <sjacob1875@...> wrote:


From: Stuart Jacob <sjacob1875@...>
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] Re: Insulin Glucose Draw
To: EquineCushings@...
Date: Monday, September 7, 2009, 5:49 PM


 



Again, one of the vets I am using, who believes that Toby is not IR, suggested putting a different muzzle on Toby and allowing him to be out for 4-6 hours. The new muzzle, appears to fit him better and he is not objecting to it...he is able to get some grass through the small hole in the bottom...just enough to make him happy. We have been doing this for 10 days and we are now doing a Insulin/Glucose test to see if his insulin goes up from the last time we tested him. Prior to this we tried him in a sandy round pen (taking Sand Colic to help digestion just in case) and with a tight and then loose muzzle that had a plug. With the other muzzle and plug tack, Toby would rather not go out.

____________ _________ _________ __
From: Linda Rollins <lindarollins38@ comcast.net>
To: EquineCushings@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Monday, September 7, 2009 5:32:35 PM
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] Re: Insulin Glucose Draw

So, why is he allowed to graze now?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Insulin Glucose Draw

briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
 

he is able to get some grass through the small hole in the >bottom...just enough to make him happy. We have been doing this for 10 days and we are now doing a Insulin/Glucose test to see if his insulin goes up from the last time we tested him.
Hi Stu,

I've been biting my tongue,trying not to be the "too many cooks spoil the broth" person.
You have been getting really sound advice here.
But I just need to add to what others have said about this...and I know you are thinking differently about this now,but for other new members.....and that is that whoever guided you along this path seems to be using your boy as a guinea pig,and that's not fair.
If he's tested and his G:I is below 4.5 ,we know we have to be very interested in how much,if any, grass he gets.If he is able to be excercised our options are better,because we have learned how very important excercise is for these IR ponies.And how much easier it makes it to manage their IR.Just ask Dr. Gustafson,aka Kathleen.
It's way better to do the blood test first,to get a handle on where your boy is ,and then act accordingly,than to put a 'test' horse out on grass to see if his insulin will increase.
I can so identify with what you are dealing with,with respect to all the various advice you are getting.So can a lot of us.
You are in good hands here,and I am thrilled you have finally connected with Dr. Kellon.
Just keep breathing,and believe that this is going to sort itself out,and Toby will be the winner.
He is lucky to have you sticking with him.

Lorna in Ontario
Moderator
May 2002


Exercise for Recovering horse

vwp06
 

I am looking for ways to gently exercise my Fjord that had
laminitis this spring, and a "sinker." With good vet/farrier care and
advice from this group and painful diligence, she has gone from a
hospital plate to bar shoes with pads to bar shoes to a plain horseshoe.
She has not had a lame step for 3 months. She is stalled at night and has
access to a sand dressage sized ring all day, and does go out there and
walk around quite a bit.

The vet said to add exercise now. Walking or trotting in the ring
with no tight turns. Not necessarily lunging. She has not been ridden in
over a year because I had knee replacement surgery last summer and could
not ride last fall, then winter, then laminitis. He said we could ride
her in the sand ring at a walk, going in arena sized circles.

So today my husband got on her. He is not the strongest rider. I
thought we should have ground sessions first, but he wanted to ride. She
wanted to go go go. So he got off. Both for his sake and for the fact
that she might injure herself.

I am real happy she feels so good, but how to do I exercise her
without riding? I can't take her for long walks, because now I have an
ankle that needs help. I could lunge her, but I can't think of anything
else.
Thanks,
Valerie and Sydney
Columbia, CT
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Jiaogulan in New Zealand

jenalfriston <jennimac@...>
 

Hi all

Just in case I need some Jiaogulan for my Cushings horse in the future I've been looking at sources in NZ but am a bit confused by dosage rates etc. Hoping someone can help please. This is one source I've found:

60 Vegetarian Capsules Jiaogulan leaf extract (600mg capsules)
90% Gypenosides
NZ$ 29.50

30 grams Jiaogulan leaf extract powder 90% Gypenosides NZ$ 14.40

One of the articles in the files states as below re dosage - sorry I copied the body of the file but not the link. It was one of Dr Kellons excellent documents:


Table 3. Dosage determination steps
I. Low end human dose = 20 mg of actual gypenosides. To convert to equine (500 to 550 kg) on a metabolic bodyweight basis, multiply x 5 = 100 mg of actual gypenosidesII. For whole herb, assume lower end gypenoside concentration for untested herb = 5% gypenosides. For target dose of 100 mg, divide by 0.05 = 2000 mgIII. When using a standardized human product, whole herb or extract, use the known concentration to determine dose; e.g. For a human product containing 20 mg total gypenosides per tablet or capsule, 100 mg divided by 20 mg./capsule = 5 capsulesIV. When using an herb for the first time in a horse, it is generally advisable to start with lower then predicted doses and increase gradually to determine response.

So my question is the source I have found states 90& gypenosides so how much would I need to feed of the powdered form?

Alternatively perhaps someone in NZ is already using J-herb and can point me in the right direction.

Many thanks
Jenni
New Zealand 2008


Intro

l.brwney <l.brwney@...>
 

Hello all,

I am new to the group as I have finally figured out what is going on with my horse. I have been to lots of vets and now finally one has told me about the EMS. Probably b/c her condition has worsened enough for the dr to give a diagnosis. She is not lamanatic. Yet. I have read over the info on the post and although she has not been vet tested yet, she fits the bill. My horse's name is India and she is a 9 yr old BLM.

I will be switching out her feed in the next weeks. I was already going to change to holistic feeding, but will just modify it a bit to include the BP. I know that is says to feed them iodized salt, but neither of the girls will eat it. They get sea salt and eventually kelp.

Can you eventually breed these horse? I was excited last week b/c I finally found a Kiger stallion in my area that I was going to be allowed to breed her to and now this. It kinda dashes my hopes. :(

Thank you
Lynnette


Re: Insulin Glucose Draw

Stuart Jacob <sjacob1875@...>
 

Again, one of the vets I am using, who believes that Toby is not IR, suggested putting a different muzzle on Toby and allowing him to be out for 4-6 hours. The new muzzle, appears to fit him better and he is not objecting to it...he is able to get some grass through the small hole in the bottom...just enough to make him happy. We have been doing this for 10 days and we are now doing a Insulin/Glucose test to see if his insulin goes up from the last time we tested him. Prior to this we tried him in a sandy round pen (taking Sand Colic to help digestion just in case) and with a tight and then loose muzzle that had a plug. With the other muzzle and plug tack, Toby would rather not go out.



________________________________
From: Linda Rollins <lindarollins38@...>
To: EquineCushings@...
Sent: Monday, September 7, 2009 5:32:35 PM
Subject: Re: [EquineCushings] Re: Insulin Glucose Draw



So, why is he allowed to graze now?

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