Date   

Questions regarding adding salt to the IR diet (emergency or otherwise)

Sue Ring
 

Hey all!

I have a question(s) regarding the addition of salt to an IR diet (emergency or other).  I was already feeding electrolytes (Peak Performance no sugar electrolytes).  Do the electrolytes need to be replaced by the salt??  Can be fed in addition to the salt (I'm thinking not)?  I have some iodized sea salt on hand.  Is regular, iodized table salt, such as Morton's better??  Is all salt created equal when it comes to an IR diet additive??  Thank you for a prompt response!!
--
Sue R in NC 2021

CASE HISTORY:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/SUE%20and%20DAKOTA
 


Re: Feeding before ACTH test

Nancy C
 

Hi Rebecca.
The four hour window is to prevent the break of an overnight fast from spiking insulin and glucose.

Feeding your supplement meal six hours prior is okay, as long as he continues to have hay in front of him until testing.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Re: Chemelle and Andy - Invokana

chemelle
 

Dr. Kellon,
That is true. He was having the energy issues prior. We started prascend 8/18/19. I did not know about titrating and he had a hard veil. I read back through my case history notes and we have not had any extended periods of what I would think of as pre PPID/IR treatment normalcy so his issues certainly predated starting invokana (5/27/20). Having said that, this does "feel" like it might be different. Before he would have some very good days where he seemed like his old self (spontaneous trotting/bucking/cantering and play with other horses) and he had a lingering lameness. Now he looks pretty sound to me when he does move he just really doesn't want to move. His exercise routine is pretty uninspired so I can't completely discount that he might just be bored but this is usually our "frisky" season. I will be working on trying to innovate his exercise a bit more. I do have some beet pulp that I can try and he has had the evitex 4/5-4/12. I did not order enough to finish the 2-week loading period and will have to try again.
--
Chemelle
Hillsboro, OR
2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Chemelle%20and%20Andy 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94380


Re: Dr Kellon/Dr. Clougher - need help re significant increase in triglycerides

Lecia Martin
 

Dr. K :  So sorry to hear you have been ill.   We are sending healing thoughts and pray for a full recovery
--
Lecia Flyte and Flame
Alberta, Canada


Re: Feeding before ACTH test

Rebecca T.
 

Hi Bonnie,

The website says the horse should not be fed anything except for hay prior to testing, but I don't see a timeframe. I see 4 hours for exercise, but no time frame for food. Would feeding the vermont blend 6 hours before the blood test be ok?

Rebecca
Virginia, Joined: 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rebecca%20and%20Zip
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258270


Re: Feeding before ACTH test

 

Rebecca,
This info is covered at https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-diagnosis.php
Scroll down thru this information and you will find information about how/what to feed your horse prior to blood draws. For a while I used a particular vet who had very different ideas (as opposed to ECIR recommendations) and I just didn't bring up how and what my horse had been fed. He never even asked about my horse's feed that morning! I kept up the hay only before blood draws but I did forward the info to him from the Cornell Lab to be sure he met their requirements.
--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Group Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album Deceased


Re: Chemelle and Andy - Invokana

chemelle
 

Hi Nancy,
I have not discussed it with him yet but I will on Thursday. He is a little "old-school". He is a a good guy but I mostly use him to get diagnostics and address emergencies as he does not prescribe to ECIR protocols or think outside the box. So I stalk this forum for direction.
Andy will definitely eat more. His appetite is not a problem. The only thing I have not had any luck getting into him is his Vermont blend and minerals. I have not found an acceptable carrier for those yet. Hay and ODTB are not a problem. I've been increasing his intake gradually.
--
Chemelle
Hillsboro, OR
2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Chemelle%20and%20Andy 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94380


Re: Important - Attention those using Invokana or other drugs in this class

Patti SoCal 2020
 

Sorry this is late but wanted to have all info before I sent it.

Sunny, MFT, @1100 lbs, 16 hands, @5.5/9 BCS

Hay: Timothy
Can't test because I can only keep 20 bales at a time for 2 horses
Have soaked in the past - currently not soaking
Feed 2% of body weight

Other feed:  Stabul 1 as a carrier for supplements (@1.5-2 lbs total with supplements)

Response: Has not lost weight w/out diet change

Triglyderides tested:
Pre-Invokana - 73
6 weeks post Invokana (300 mgs dose) - 1096

Hoof comfort - happy with this. Laminitis resolved
Insulin level - went down to 109.6 (I thought it would be lower given his resolution of footsoreness)

Update:  I received CBC/Chem panel on 4/6.  Triglycerides increased dramatically; liver enzymes increased; cholesterol increased. CBC showed anemia (though we had not tested this before so I don't know if this is related to Invokana). I stopped Invokana (last pill given on 4/6).  Sunny has still been walking well until today (4/12) when he has slowed down.  Vet took blood today for CBC/Chem panel/Insulin.  Should receive results of CBC/chem tomorrow and will decide with my vet what reduced dosage to use to restart Invokana. CH updated as of today.
--
Patti
SoCal 2020                                                 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Patti%20and%20Sunny


Feeding before ACTH test

Rebecca T.
 

Hi,

If a horse gets fed Vermont blend, timothy pellets, j-herb, and vitamin e at 8 am and the vet draws a metabolic panel including ACTH, glucose, and insulin at 2pm, would feeding the horse at 8 am cause false high values? How long does there need to be between feeding and drawing blood? The horse would have constant access to hay.
--
Rebecca
Virginia, Joined: 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rebecca%20and%20Zip
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=258270


Re: Dr Kellon/Dr. Clougher - need help re significant increase in triglycerides

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

So glad you are on the mend Dr. Kellon. Please take care. Thanks for always being here for us too ❤ lots of healing energy to you.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Dr Kellon/Dr. Clougher - need help re significant increase in triglycerides

Aurelio Henriques
 

Dr. Kellon,
    I hope for your full recovery as quickly as possible. What a nasty virus, this one.

Aurelio in Ontario

Aurelio Henriques
Ontario Dehy Inc.
tel. 519-524-1063
On 04/12/2021 12:32 PM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:

Just want to correct a few misconceptions here.

On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 12:53 AM, Nancy & Vinnie & Summer wrote:
He was eating well, but he was getting more picky about hay. The old hay he stopped eating and the new hay that was greener but lower in sugar he would devour. 
Just want to mention that sugar isn't the only determinate of appeal. Horses will also reject a hay that is older and more fibrous in favor of a greener hay.Regardless of why, reducing his  hay intake only worsened a negative energy balance.

His poop seemed glossy which I thought was strange and now have learned that is fat in the stool.
That's not fat, it's mucus and is a sign of impending impaction.  Fat/triglycerides do not move out of the body into the gut.
He got foot sore even though his insulin was normal.
That's a sure sign it wasn't laminitis.
He developed a crest and so I thought it may be early ppid so talked to my vet and we restarted prascend
PPID or not, the crest comes from high insulin.  It will appear more obvious if he has some dehydration.

= = = = =

Sorry I've been absent lately but I've been trying to shake off COVID for almost two weeks. Battle not over yet so please bear with me if I'm slow to respond.

 
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001



Re: Now what

Nancy K.
 

Will do. Thanks.

Nancy Camp
Whole Horse Training
Carey, Idaho 83320



--

-Nancy K. with Jalila & Shiraz

March 2021, Blaine county Idaho

Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Jalila

Jalila’s Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=262313
Shiraz's Photos: 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=262467 

 


Re: Chemelle and Andy - Invokana

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Chemelle,

You were reporting the listlessness and reluctance to do anything but walk before the Invokana.  Did it start with Prascend? Has it changed? Try giving him free choice hay and see if you can get him to eat beet pulp.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Suggestions from Cornell WAS Re: high insulin, high glucose

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Melanie,

Thyroid medicine will not effect her insulin level although it can jump start weight loss if that's an issue.  Are you saying that the endocrinologist said that the high glucose was not a feed issue?  Or just the leptin?  The ravenous eating behavior is pretty common in an IR horse with elevated leptin.  With an insulin that high I would think that metformin would be the first medication of choice IF her diet is already as tight as it can be, she's off grass, at a good weight, etc.  Unfortunately, without a case history we don't know the answers to all those things.




Re: Dr Kellon/Dr. Clougher - need help re significant increase in triglycerides

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 
Edited

Just want to correct a few misconceptions here.

On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 12:53 AM, Nancy & Vinnie & Summer wrote:
He was eating well, but he was getting more picky about hay. The old hay he stopped eating and the new hay that was greener but lower in sugar he would devour. 
Sugar isn't the only determinate of appeal. Horses will also reject a hay that is older and more fibrous in favor of a greener hay. Regardless of why, reducing his hay intake only worsened a negative energy balance.

His poop seemed glossy which I thought was strange and now have learned that is fat in the stool.
That's not fat, it's mucus and is a sign of impending impaction.  Fat/triglycerides do not move out of the body into the gut.
He got foot sore even though his insulin was normal.
That's a sure sign it wasn't laminitis.
He developed a crest and so I thought it may be early ppid so talked to my vet and we restarted prascend
PPID or not, the crest comes from high insulin.  It will appear more obvious if he has some dehydration.

= = = = =

Sorry I've been absent lately but I've been trying to shake off COVID for almost two weeks. Battle not over yet so please bear with me if I'm slow to respond.

 
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Now what

Nancy C
 

If you can get the .doc open, then go for it.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Re: Chemelle and Andy - Invokana

Nancy C
 

Hey Chemelle

I changed the topic line and split off your thread so that it does not get lost. 

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Re: Now what

Nancy K.
 

I did my case studies in Pages and am unhappy with them. I can’t seem to edit them. I don’t understand the merging thing. I have the Microsoft Office suite. Is there any reason I can’t just use the regular form even though I’m on a Mac?

Nancy Camp
Whole Horse Training
Carey, Idaho 83320



--

-Nancy K. with Jalila & Shiraz

March 2021, Blaine county Idaho

Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Jalila

Jalila’s Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=262313
Shiraz's Photos: 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=262467 

 


Re: Chemelle and Andy - Invokana

Nancy C
 

Hi Chemelle

Good you are getting blood work done next week. Have you discussed these signs with your vet?

I believe all of the vets working with Invokana horses were sent this email, but just in case, I am sending the link.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/262445

Will Andy eat more food? Safe calories. Tested hay. r/s/r Beet Pulp. ODTB Cubes. Make sure his salt is adequate.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Re: WAS: Stabul 1 / NOW: Julanne and Oreo

Julanne Baker
 

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