Date   

Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Rita,

I'm not sure why you have Stetson on any grain at this point. There is a list of safe feeds in our files: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/2.%20Safe%20Feeds/Safe%20Bagged%20Feeds.pdf. While the Poulin grain is listed as below 10% ESC+ starch we have not tested it so can't comment if that's consistent from batch to batch and therefore it is not on our safe feeds list.

At this point, were he mine he'd be getting hay and as little carrier as possible to get Vitamin E, flax and salt into him (most people find that to be about a pound of rinsed/soaked/rinsed molasses free beet pulp, Stabul-1 or soy hulls.  No commercial grain beyond that.

For a horse in need of a corrective trim many of our members find going to a shorter trim cycle (4 - 5 weeks instead of even 6) is better, but you'll have to monitor Stetson to see how that goes.  Ideally you want to stay ahead of the toes getting longer not constantly just bringing them back to where they were.

For a flat surface you can use a piece of plywood that's been swept clean.



Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Maxine McArthur
 
Edited

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 04:32 AM, Rita Chavez wrote:
unfortunately, have a solid flat surface for him to stand on. I'll need to rig something to take the photos needed

Just a quick comment, Rita. I don’t have concrete washbays or such amenities with a flat surface either, so I sourced a piece of sturdy plywood and stand my horse on that for photos. If the horse is wary (Dangles was at first), you get the happy bonus of training/bonding time to teach them to stand there. I use the same board when the vet brings his portable X-ray machine to put the blocks on. 
 A heavy rubber mat might work for you too, if you can smooth out the ground under the mat.


--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Lorna Cane
 

Goood for you,Rita!!!

To help to make the  muzzle more tempting ( but really,many horses don't hate them as much as we do) try adding a couple of ODTBcubes,or something  else he likes,which won't upset his balanced diet.


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Need help ASAP - painful mini

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

 Amy,

Do you know what size Invokana pill you are getting? You are going to need a pill splitter.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Rita Chavez
 

Thank you, Lavinia! I will strive to get those photos for you. I don't, unfortunately, have a solid flat surface for him to stand on. I'll need to rig something to take the photos needed. Give me a few days to figure out how/what. 
--
Rita C. and Stetson (2001 Tennessee Walking Horse/Gelding, diagnosed IR)
Aiken, South Carolina USA
June 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rita%20C.%20and%20Stetson


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Rita Chavez
 

THANK YOU, Sherry! Your information is so valuable. First, I think I've fixed my links. (Still need to go in and change those dates from July to June - yes, a moment of brain fog) From your suggestions I have made the following changes today:

1. Switching out his alfalfa pellets and LDL Barn Bag pellets to E-Tec CarbSafe by Poulin Grain. I'll make the switch slowly this week until he's on it 100%. And only 1 Tbs of EVOO to help his Thyro-L powder stick. My vet prescribed it to help him lose the weight, estimated to be 200# overweight at this point. I'll get a weight tape on him asap, borrowed from a neighbor. 

2. Removed all his Himalayan Salt and replaced with plain white Iodized salt. He likes it.

3. Buying a muzzle for a little turnout time. He is going to HATE wearing that. I'm prepared for the struggle. 

4. I've asked my farrier to remove the glue-ons when he comes out next week - IF my horse is able to stand on 3 feet comfortably for more than 2 seconds. Right now he can't. I will try Easy Boots and keeping a 6 week trim schedule instead of 8.

5. My vet will be back July 8th for a 30-day recheck. I will ask her to do the TRH Stim Test then. 

6. I will get a scale of some sort to weigh my hay. But for now I'm figuring that each bale of Timothy (3-string, avg 110 lbs, grown in Idaho) is lasting me 7 days. That is: 110 lbs / 7 days = 15.71 lbs/day  I'm curious if a scale shows it different. 

7. I will try to stop beating myself up. Try being the operative word. No guarantees in that department, not until I see him walk normally. 

Again, thank you all so much!!

--
Rita C. and Stetson (2001 Tennessee Walking Horse/Gelding, diagnosed IR)
Aiken, South Carolina USA
June 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rita%20C.%20and%20Stetson


Re: Adding pictures - no image

 

The image was in the album when I checked.  I doubt non-Apple users can download photos in this format, so it's probably advisable to convert them.

Also,  you  need to rename the image to omit the " +" and any other "special characters" in the name, which can cause problems displaying photos on all the assorted operating systems like Windows, Android etc. In general, omit characters in the name that are not numbers, letters and hyphens. There are some fine details about other characters that are acceptable, like the hyphen, but for my old brain, it's easiest to remember to use only numbers, letters and hyphens in image names.

In your album, images can be renamed using the Edit button. You need to change the name in the box and then scroll to the bottom of the window and click Update
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Rita,

Please don't beat yourself up. You did the best you could with the knowledge you had. Being a TWH means Stetson is one of the high-risk breeds to be have EMS/IR. This isn't a disease, it's a type of super-efficient metabolism which is great in the wild when food can be scarce and exercise is mandatory to survive. It's not so great in domestication where food is always available in excessive quantities and exercise is limited.

Thanks for adding Stetson's radiographs. Here's the link to his album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166

There are two types of rotation - bony and capsular. Bony column rotation is when the bones don't line up properly, with the coffin bone tipping downward toward the sole. Capsular rotation is when the hoof capsule has pulled away from it's good, tight attachment to the coffin bone and the dorsal wall is flaring away from the surface of the coffin bone.

There is no bony column rotation (a good thing) but there is capsular rotation - which is a fixable trim issue. His toes are too long horizontally, heels are underrun and there is a bit of sinking. As Sherry already mentioned, his soles are thin, which is definitely a large part of his discomfort. Glue-on shoes are helping only because they are lifting him up a bit higher off the ground, so are keeping his thin soles protected. They aren't solving any of the underlying mechanical or metabolic issues that are causing the pain. You can get the same protection from padded boots with the added bonus of being able to address the trim issues more frequently, plus they will help him to build more sole material. Fixing the sky-high insulin is the only way to stop the laminitis that is the underlying problem.

The pink area the farrier found was bruising, which was evidence of some kind of damage having happened. No more grazing AT ALL with his insulin levels so out of control. Whole he may pout at that restriction initially, he'll get used to it and it's a small price to pay for not having excruciatingly painful feet. As Sherry mentioned, the Thyro-L has no effect on insulin.

If you would like some mark-ups to help guide trimming, I'll need a full set of hoof photos (all four feet, please) as outlined here:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1472

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Adding pictures - no image

 

I suspect the issue is the format of the photo, .HEIC. This newer image format is used by the iPhone. You can convert .HEIC images to jpeg using online converters and on Preview.app for MacOS on a regular Mac computer. In the future, it's probably easier to shoot your iPhone images in .jpeg or .png format.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Need help ASAP - painful mini

amyscrivanich
 

Thanks to everyone who jumped in so quickly to help me.   Her pain subsided last night and she had the sparkle back in her eyes this morning...phew.    
Her appetite has been very good so far, no temp and her trim looks good.   I have noticed (in the past two days) that she is pooping way less than normal, so I'm keeping an eye out for colic now too.  

Picking up the Invokana either today or tomorrow (the pharmacy is trying to locate it).     

Part of my panic stems from the fact that she cannot survive another bout of founder/laminitis.  The one back in 2018 was quite bad.   The Metformin & Thy L have kept her happy and stable, but as you all know that won't work long term for her, so here we are.


--
Amy Scrivanich
Charlotte, NC
Nov 2004 (my original PPID horse passed in 2015)
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amy%20and%20Mater%20the%20mini

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=264439

 


Re: Adding pictures - no image

Sherry Morse
 

Kelly,

If you're referring to this file: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/264981/3246856?p=Taken,,,20,2,0,0 yes, it's blank.  No idea what's going on but I would suggest you try to rename the picture on the phone first just in case that's the issue.



Re: Mini horse is having laminitis bout

Sherry Morse
 

Hello Amy,

Welcome to the group.




Re: Boron for arthritis and IR

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Thank you  so much Janet!! I had forgotten about this article. My vet had referred me to it when we first added boron to Vinnie's supplements :)
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Adding pictures - no image

Kelly Kathleen Daughtry
 

Whenever I try to add a picture, I get a blank screen. It says the picture is IMG 3253 which is the name of the picture (named by my computer/phone)  but nothing shows up - or at least I can't see it.  There's a blank screen instead of an image. Anyone know what's going on ?
--
Kelly & Micah, Clayton NC

April 2016

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20%20Micah 

Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=264981

 

          


Re: Boron for arthritis and IR

Janet Oppio
 
Edited

The benefits of Boron are well documented in Nothing Boring About Boron publishished on the nih site...specifically regarding the prevention and/or mitigation of osteoarthritis. I just love this summary article. CA grass hays are likely to have very low levels of boron as USGS soil surveys show low levels in general throughout the growing regions of the state, so i dont see supplementation as bad idea...for people either. 
-- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4712861/
Janet 
East Bay Northern CA
Joined 2019


Re: Need help ASAP - painful mini

amy edwards
 

He is overweight 😳. Not on Metformin, just trimmed yesterday, no abscess. I am following the emergency protocol to a T. He is on Thyro-l and Chromium Yeast? He has Deep bedded stall as well. This is Cash 
--
Amy Edwards

--
Amy Edwards


Mini horse is having laminitis bout

amy edwards
 

My little guy is going through a laminitis bout. He is only 2. I was told to feed Triple Crown Safe Starch and he seemed to get worse. After messaging this group I’ve soaked his hay for 1 hour, I revieved Vermont Blend today and will get flax tomorrow. He is in Thyro-l and chromium yeast. He is also in soft-ride boots and was trimmed yesterday 


Re: Still unsure on grass consumption during exercise

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Fasted is OK. We now have better information on what fasting levels should be. He's a little higher than  he should be (should be under 10) but only slightly. As described in the other post, you can liberalize his diet during and for a short time after exercise but otherwise keep him restricted.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Still unsure on grass consumption during exercise

Angie Mikkelson <angieorr@...>
 

Dr Kellon - Thank you for responding.  Yes I did have him redrawn in May.  I have now updated his case history file.  My vet told me to fast him for this test though so he was not fed overnight at all. I may have to get it rechecked based off the information I've now read on this page???  

Insulin - 14.5 uI/mL
Glucose - 93 (lab sheet doesn't say units??)
ACTH- 24 pg/mL
--
Angie in ND, 2021
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Angie%20and%20Bear


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Rita,

Welcome to the group.

Some housekeeping before I get into answering your questions.

1) Could you please add the link to your album to your signature?  To do that:
2) Go to this link to amend your auto-signature: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/editsub
3) Look at the bottom of that page for the window where you have your name/location/case history link.
4) Add the link to the photo album under the CH link: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166. Make sure you make the link "live". You may need to add a space or hit "Enter" on your keyboard to turn it blue.
5) IMPORTANT: Scroll to the bottom and hit SAVE!

Also, could you please update the names of your photos so they show the correct date.  I'm guessing they were taken on June 7, not July since we're not there yet. Same request for the dates in your case history that are July of this year since I'm pretty sure you meant June. Right now it's easy to know what you meant but further along it's going to get confusing :-)

So with all that out of the way - Stetson is very definitely IR with that insulin level and quite possibly early PPID with the fall laminitis.  We recommend doing a TRH stim test for horses that are possibly early PPID and that should be done now, before the seasonal rise as it will help pinpoint if PPID is contributing to the elevated insulin. 

For an IR horse diet is key, so no more alfalfa as many horses are very sensitive to it, even though it will usually test as low ESC plus starch.  That means no more pellets nor hay with alfalfa in it.  The Life Data product is higher in fat than we recommend and without a hay test (more on that below) it may or may not be providing Stetson with what he actually needs.  To get a better handle on what he needs we recommend testing hay and then balancing to the hay test so you know he's getting exactly what he needs.  Why are you feeding him olive oil?  Again, high fat is a concern with an IR horse so that needs to be stopped as well.  We do have members that use it for dosing metformin or mixing with supplements but that's usually no more than a tablespoon per day. 

Looking at the x-rays Stetson has a bit of a long toe and very little sole so it's not surprising that he's been foot sore.  He has a bit of a ski tip on both front feet so this has been an ongoing issue for a while.  See the "Trim" section below for how to best get advice on trimming him correctly to help with those issues.  Ultimately he's going to be easier to manage in boots rather than glue on shoes as he's probably going to need more frequent trims to help get his feet in better order.

Please note that for foot pain related to a metabolic condition icing is not going to help, nor will bute.  For a horse with an insulin of 200+ (and your vet can contact Cornell and get an exact number on that if they still have the sample) I would not allow any grazing at all.  If you want to let him loose in a larger area he should be wearing a sealed muzzle and be brought back in after 4 hours or so to have a hay meal in his dry lot.  Assuming the pictures you posted are him in the dry lot pen you made for him there is still grass available to him and even that small amount can be a problem so if you can kill it off (some members have used vinegar and others use mats or carpet pieces placed on top of the grass to kill it) that would be good. 

Why did the vet prescribe Thyro-L?  If she's thinking it will help lower insulin, it's been proven that it doesn't work in IR horses.  It can help jump start weight loss, but that's about it.  Limiting diet to either 1.5% of current weight or 2% of ideal will usually work for most horses.  It would be very helpful for you to get an exact weight for him - either by using a weight tape or using the calculator (https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/Weights%20and%20Measures/How%20to%20Find%20Ideal%20Body%20Weight.pdf) so then you would know exactly how much he should be eating per day. 

For now if his ideal weight is 1100 pounds he should be eating no more than 22 WEIGHED pounds per day and that includes hay and any concentrates.  I see you have him listed as getting 20lbs a day - but are you actually weighing what you feed? Again, NO alfalfa pellets, no olive oil and no himalayan salt - the pink color comes from mineral impurities, usually iron, which are a no-go for an IR horse. 

With all of that being said, there's no beating yourself up over what you could have/should have done allowed here - our goal is no laminitis and to do that we focus on what's happening now and what you can change going forward.  Grab a cup of your favorite beverage and be prepared to take notes because there's a lot of information in the welcome note that follows.  If you have more questions after you read it (and you probably will) please do not hesitate to ask.  We're here to help you and Stetson!

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