Date   

Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Maxine McArthur
 

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 11:51 AM, Lavinia Fiscaletti wrote:
You don't need a piece of plywood big enough to stand all four feet at once - just both fronts or both hinds while you take the photos.
Oops should have clarified, I use a board big enough for two feet, as Lavinia says.
 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

You don't need a piece of plywood big enough to stand all four feet at once - just both fronts or both hinds while you take the photos.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Rita,

Triple Crown light is not a safe feed either, sorry.  You can see several analysis of it that have been done over the years in the files: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9c%20Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds/Triple%20Crown%20Products

To give you the pertinent numbers:

2017:
ESC: 3.1
Starch: 7.8

2013:
ESC: 3.5
Starch: 9.9

2012:
ESC: 3.7
Starch: 11.1

2010:
ESC: 3.5
Starch: 10.4

I would recommend you look at the options on the Safe Feeds list such as Stabul 1 if you need a carrier.  Also arrange to get your hay tested as soon as possible so you can balance the minerals to that.





Re: Need help ASAP - painful mini

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Metformin yes but Thyro-L no. You'll have to wean him off slowly or he'll be low thyroid which is just as  bad for triglycerides. Drop by 1/2 tsp every two weeks.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Research on Alfalfa and IR

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


Re: Need help ASAP - painful mini

amyscrivanich
 

Dr. Kellon - I am not exactly sure yet.  I believe she is approx 325 lbs and I have pill splitter handy.   Do I go cold turkey with the Metformin and Thy-L ??  

Thank you!! 

--
Amy Scrivanich
Charlotte, NC
Nov 2004 (my original PPID horse passed in 2015)
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amy%20and%20Mater%20the%20mini

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=264439

 


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Lorna Cane
 

Rita,try soy hull pellets.They just need to be dampened,as opposed to rinse/soaked/rinsed.
Many horses prefer them to beet pulp.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Research on Alfalfa and IR

Rita Chavez
 
Edited

I truly am in a frantic research mode for the past week, and I found this article to be of great interest. This is something I never considered as being a contributor to obesity and IR in horses. I was always taught that alfalfa was "good" for horses because of the protein. Well, here's another wake-up call. 

https://www.americanfarriers.com/articles/8036-alfalfa-and-the-insulin-resistant-horse
--
Rita C. and Stetson (2001 Tennessee Walking Horse/Gelding, diagnosed IR)
Aiken, South Carolina USA
June 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rita%20C.%20and%20Stetson


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Rita Chavez
 

GREAT ideas! I think the board will work. I just need to get one big enough. 
--
Rita C. and Stetson (2001 Tennessee Walking Horse/Gelding, diagnosed IR)
Aiken, South Carolina USA
June 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rita%20C.%20and%20Stetson


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Rita Chavez
 

Thank you for the advice! I take it all to heart because this horse means to world to me. The feed he's getting is just a vit/mineral supplement without added grains. It's very little for each meal, just 1/4 cup. I was using 1 cup of alfalfa pellets as a carrier because it is such a small amount. Turns out I'm not able to get the Poulin Grain E-Tec Carb Safe, so I have gone back to Triple Crown Lite - a very low calorie, low fat pelleted feed with an NSC of 9.3%. I will stop giving the olive oil and add water to prevent choking, a problem we had with our other horse on Triple Crown Low Starch. I'll transition him slowly this week. I'm adding the link for TC Lite here:https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/products/lite/   I've tried the beet pulp idea. Aside from the rinse/soak/rinse routine, my horse refused to eat it. He actually pooped in his feed bucket on the last day, that's when I gave up on it. 

I'm in total agreement about more frequent trim cycles! When I trimmed him myself (for 14 years until last year) I did his hoof touch up every two weeks. He had gorgeous feet and sound on all types of ground. I need to get him past this soreness, so he can actually lift his feet for more than a couple seconds. I'll try boots on him. Easy Boots are what I'm most familiar with.  
--
Rita C. and Stetson (2001 Tennessee Walking Horse/Gelding, diagnosed IR)
Aiken, South Carolina USA
June 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rita%20C.%20and%20Stetson


Re: Adding pictures - no image

Sherry Morse
 

Ah Cass, I suspect you're right.  I didn't even realize that was an image format and just thought it was gobblygook being added to the name.




Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Rita,

I'm not sure why you have Stetson on any grain at this point. There is a list of safe feeds in our files: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/2.%20Safe%20Feeds/Safe%20Bagged%20Feeds.pdf. While the Poulin grain is listed as below 10% ESC+ starch we have not tested it so can't comment if that's consistent from batch to batch and therefore it is not on our safe feeds list.

At this point, were he mine he'd be getting hay and as little carrier as possible to get Vitamin E, flax and salt into him (most people find that to be about a pound of rinsed/soaked/rinsed molasses free beet pulp, Stabul-1 or soy hulls.  No commercial grain beyond that.

For a horse in need of a corrective trim many of our members find going to a shorter trim cycle (4 - 5 weeks instead of even 6) is better, but you'll have to monitor Stetson to see how that goes.  Ideally you want to stay ahead of the toes getting longer not constantly just bringing them back to where they were.

For a flat surface you can use a piece of plywood that's been swept clean.



Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Maxine McArthur
 
Edited

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 04:32 AM, Rita Chavez wrote:
unfortunately, have a solid flat surface for him to stand on. I'll need to rig something to take the photos needed

Just a quick comment, Rita. I don’t have concrete washbays or such amenities with a flat surface either, so I sourced a piece of sturdy plywood and stand my horse on that for photos. If the horse is wary (Dangles was at first), you get the happy bonus of training/bonding time to teach them to stand there. I use the same board when the vet brings his portable X-ray machine to put the blocks on. 
 A heavy rubber mat might work for you too, if you can smooth out the ground under the mat.


--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Lorna Cane
 

Goood for you,Rita!!!

To help to make the  muzzle more tempting ( but really,many horses don't hate them as much as we do) try adding a couple of ODTBcubes,or something  else he likes,which won't upset his balanced diet.


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Need help ASAP - painful mini

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

 Amy,

Do you know what size Invokana pill you are getting? You are going to need a pill splitter.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Rita Chavez
 

Thank you, Lavinia! I will strive to get those photos for you. I don't, unfortunately, have a solid flat surface for him to stand on. I'll need to rig something to take the photos needed. Give me a few days to figure out how/what. 
--
Rita C. and Stetson (2001 Tennessee Walking Horse/Gelding, diagnosed IR)
Aiken, South Carolina USA
June 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rita%20C.%20and%20Stetson


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Rita Chavez
 

THANK YOU, Sherry! Your information is so valuable. First, I think I've fixed my links. (Still need to go in and change those dates from July to June - yes, a moment of brain fog) From your suggestions I have made the following changes today:

1. Switching out his alfalfa pellets and LDL Barn Bag pellets to E-Tec CarbSafe by Poulin Grain. I'll make the switch slowly this week until he's on it 100%. And only 1 Tbs of EVOO to help his Thyro-L powder stick. My vet prescribed it to help him lose the weight, estimated to be 200# overweight at this point. I'll get a weight tape on him asap, borrowed from a neighbor. 

2. Removed all his Himalayan Salt and replaced with plain white Iodized salt. He likes it.

3. Buying a muzzle for a little turnout time. He is going to HATE wearing that. I'm prepared for the struggle. 

4. I've asked my farrier to remove the glue-ons when he comes out next week - IF my horse is able to stand on 3 feet comfortably for more than 2 seconds. Right now he can't. I will try Easy Boots and keeping a 6 week trim schedule instead of 8.

5. My vet will be back July 8th for a 30-day recheck. I will ask her to do the TRH Stim Test then. 

6. I will get a scale of some sort to weigh my hay. But for now I'm figuring that each bale of Timothy (3-string, avg 110 lbs, grown in Idaho) is lasting me 7 days. That is: 110 lbs / 7 days = 15.71 lbs/day  I'm curious if a scale shows it different. 

7. I will try to stop beating myself up. Try being the operative word. No guarantees in that department, not until I see him walk normally. 

Again, thank you all so much!!

--
Rita C. and Stetson (2001 Tennessee Walking Horse/Gelding, diagnosed IR)
Aiken, South Carolina USA
June 2021

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Rita%20C.%20and%20Stetson


Re: Adding pictures - no image

 

The image was in the album when I checked.  I doubt non-Apple users can download photos in this format, so it's probably advisable to convert them.

Also,  you  need to rename the image to omit the " +" and any other "special characters" in the name, which can cause problems displaying photos on all the assorted operating systems like Windows, Android etc. In general, omit characters in the name that are not numbers, letters and hyphens. There are some fine details about other characters that are acceptable, like the hyphen, but for my old brain, it's easiest to remember to use only numbers, letters and hyphens in image names.

In your album, images can be renamed using the Edit button. You need to change the name in the box and then scroll to the bottom of the window and click Update
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: New and trying desperately to figure this all out

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Rita,

Please don't beat yourself up. You did the best you could with the knowledge you had. Being a TWH means Stetson is one of the high-risk breeds to be have EMS/IR. This isn't a disease, it's a type of super-efficient metabolism which is great in the wild when food can be scarce and exercise is mandatory to survive. It's not so great in domestication where food is always available in excessive quantities and exercise is limited.

Thanks for adding Stetson's radiographs. Here's the link to his album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=265166

There are two types of rotation - bony and capsular. Bony column rotation is when the bones don't line up properly, with the coffin bone tipping downward toward the sole. Capsular rotation is when the hoof capsule has pulled away from it's good, tight attachment to the coffin bone and the dorsal wall is flaring away from the surface of the coffin bone.

There is no bony column rotation (a good thing) but there is capsular rotation - which is a fixable trim issue. His toes are too long horizontally, heels are underrun and there is a bit of sinking. As Sherry already mentioned, his soles are thin, which is definitely a large part of his discomfort. Glue-on shoes are helping only because they are lifting him up a bit higher off the ground, so are keeping his thin soles protected. They aren't solving any of the underlying mechanical or metabolic issues that are causing the pain. You can get the same protection from padded boots with the added bonus of being able to address the trim issues more frequently, plus they will help him to build more sole material. Fixing the sky-high insulin is the only way to stop the laminitis that is the underlying problem.

The pink area the farrier found was bruising, which was evidence of some kind of damage having happened. No more grazing AT ALL with his insulin levels so out of control. Whole he may pout at that restriction initially, he'll get used to it and it's a small price to pay for not having excruciatingly painful feet. As Sherry mentioned, the Thyro-L has no effect on insulin.

If you would like some mark-ups to help guide trimming, I'll need a full set of hoof photos (all four feet, please) as outlined here:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1472

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Adding pictures - no image

 

I suspect the issue is the format of the photo, .HEIC. This newer image format is used by the iPhone. You can convert .HEIC images to jpeg using online converters and on Preview.app for MacOS on a regular Mac computer. In the future, it's probably easier to shoot your iPhone images in .jpeg or .png format.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos

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