Thanks Patti, that really helps! I do know remember a time when Cloudy's sheath was very swollen before being diagnosed and I couldn't figure out why. Thanks!

Tiffany

plwoodbury <DesertHorses@...> wrote:

I hear a lot on here that a person's horse will "not tolerate" certain feeds or to try certain

feeds but if they don't "tolerate it" to discontinue. What are some signs that your horse is
not tolerating certain food in regards to Cushings or IR? Thank you!

Hi Tiffany ~

Great question - gee, when we say things like that we know exactly what we mean and you
must think we expect you to be clairvoyant <grin>

Tolerance will be different things for different foods and horses. One that we often
mention is an intolerance to alfalfa - what we often see is an enlarged sheath or udder that
gets more normal when the alfalfa is removed. Also, some sensitive IR horses might not
tolerate the type of sugar that is more prevalent in alfalfa and will start to show signs of
laminitis (digital pulses in the fetlock grooves, ouchiness).

IR/Cushing's horses who are "sensitive" won't tolerate a hay or feed with an NSC that
won't bother a less sensitive horse (say in the 10-15% range, for example) and their
symptoms may reappear suddenly - crest enlargement, return of fat in the orbital sockets,
laminitis, etc.

So, when trying a new or different feed, we usually warn people to watch their horses like
a hawk, check often for digital pulses or reemergence of fat patches, etc.

Patti

I hear a lot on here that a person's horse will "not tolerate" certain feeds or to try certain

feeds but if they don't "tolerate it" to discontinue. What are some signs that your horse is
not tolerating certain food in regards to Cushings or IR? Thank you!

Hi Tiffany ~

Great question - gee, when we say things like that we know exactly what we mean and you
must think we expect you to be clairvoyant <grin>

Tolerance will be different things for different foods and horses. One that we often
mention is an intolerance to alfalfa - what we often see is an enlarged sheath or udder that
gets more normal when the alfalfa is removed. Also, some sensitive IR horses might not
tolerate the type of sugar that is more prevalent in alfalfa and will start to show signs of
laminitis (digital pulses in the fetlock grooves, ouchiness).

IR/Cushing's horses who are "sensitive" won't tolerate a hay or feed with an NSC that
won't bother a less sensitive horse (say in the 10-15% range, for example) and their
symptoms may reappear suddenly - crest enlargement, return of fat in the orbital sockets,
laminitis, etc.

So, when trying a new or different feed, we usually warn people to watch their horses like
a hawk, check often for digital pulses or reemergence of fat patches, etc.

Patti

In brief: In February 2008 I took Cal, my horse off of the Cinnamon:
Test results from Insulin and Glucose test April 28, 2008:
Insulin 73.6 UlUml Ref. Range = 10-40
Glucose 108 mg/dl Ref. Range = 75-117

Soon as I received test results from april 28, I resumed the 2 tsp
Cinnamon AM and PM

Test results from blood draw, June 11, 2008
Insulin 35.03 UlU/ml Ref. Range = 10-40
Glucose 106 mg/dl Ref. Range = 75-117

I've not figured the ratios yet but the only conclusion I have is that
for Cal the Cinnamon helps control the Insulin.

Aneda Williams
I will update Cal's records.

--- In EquineCushings@..., "sasha" <farmerjohnette@...> wrote:

Can I feed my IR mare raw flax seed. A girl at work said its toxic.
I can't see how boiling would make a difference...

It's not toxic. Some flax seeds will release small amounts of cyanide (so will apple seeds but
we haven't noticed any horses rolling over and playing dead from cyanide poisoning.)
Really just not an issue.
But do make sure it's fresh ground or stabilized so the essential fatty acids aren't oxidized
and lost.

See the folder on flax in Folder #3 at http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files

Patti K
Vail AZ

I hear a lot on here that a person's horse will "not tolerate" certain feeds or to try certain feeds but if they don't "tolerate it" to discontinue. What are some signs that your horse is not tolerating certain food in regards to Cushings or IR? Thank you!

Tiffany

Hi - yesterday my farrier came out to trim the horses and since we
aren't riding now (too hot and buggy this time of year) and after
much discussion about Mel's condition (severely IR) - we decided to
pull all 4 shoes since she's living in lots of mud right now (the
paddock in which she and the other 3 horses live is very wet from
the rains we've had here in CT.

As an aside - I'm probably a week away from moving my guys to my new
barn so I can start the emergency diet, watering hay, etc shortly.

Anyway, when trimming her feet - the farrier happened to be clipping
and I'm not sure whether she quicked her or not - I don't think so
but Mel started bleeding from the side of her frog on her left
rear. The farrier said that this is not unusual for horses with
Mel's condition but I was a bit disturbed. I also have to state
that Mel's left hind was growing far more than the other feet (much
longer toe) so I'm not sure if this is an issue either.

Is this something I shoudl be worried about? She's a bit sore today
but she hasn't been without shoes in YEARS. The gal I got her from
was advised by her farrier that she should never go without shoes
since she foundered years ago. Due to the excessively wet
conditions and her IR - her white line is much worse so I'm thinking
it's better for her to have a chance to heal without the shoes....

I know there are several questions in here...any advice would be
very much appreciated......

Thanks!
P.S. Be prepared for lots of questons when she comes home....I also
have hay being delivered at the end of the month so I can have it
analyzed so I can balance their diet too (I'm so excited!!!!)

At 5:40 PM +0000 6/19/08, Julie wrote:

Lil britches aka Pony
--insulin 419 pmol/L dont have lab range.
--glucose 5.1 mmol/L lab range 3-6.9

this give her a ratio of 1.52 WHATEVER, this is stooopid.

sorry am really discouraged and on the verge of a equine melt down.

I'm sorry to hear about the increase in insulin numbers. You said yourself that the pony was getting more exercise before. Is there any way you can increase her exercise now? I bet some kid would love to be able to ride in return for barn help or something like that.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...

Dr. Kellon replied
also and has mentioned EPSM to me which has never been considered
before, you can see my reply to her.

Ev -

We can't do "attachments" to the list but -

Go to http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files/9%20Case%20Histories/
I made you a folder called Cody - Ev
Click on the folder, then "add file", you should be able to browse to your word doc history
and upload it.

Go into photos http://pets.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/photos,
create an album, and add Cody's photos to the album.

EPSM didn't occur to me, either. Claire has a good article on her website about Doc - http://members.cox.net/shotgun.ranch/page13.html

Patti K
Vail AZ

Can I feed my IR mare raw flax seed. A girl at work said its toxic.
I can't see how boiling would make a difference...

At 5:40 PM +0000 6/19/08, blixen4444 wrote:

I have seen this term and don't see it in the glossary.

Some horses are very skin sensitive, and they might act
crabby when being groomed or even just lightly touched in certain
spots on their body. It seems more common with Cushing's/IR horses,
but I think no one really knows why, though I believe one time Dr.
Kellon said a horse might act like this from any kind of pain or
discomfort.
My horse, Penny, used to be like this on her right shoulder
where the neck joins the body and on her chest. Since I joined this
list and changed her diet and she's been on medication, she has
gradually gotten better. Since the diet changes and medication
happened fairly close together, and since Penny's touch-me-nots got
better gradually over time, I'm not quite sure which was responsible
for the improvement, but I'm glad Penny is feeling better most days,
anyway.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...

At 5:40 PM +0000 6/19/08, blixen4444 wrote:

Or maybe I misunderstood. Maybe there isn't a "how this forum works" file.

I think the rules are just learned as you go along. If you
step out of line, the "hall monitors" will e-mail you privately,
reminding you of the basic rules.
One is to not repeat a whole post when you're answering, just
to repeat pertinent parts, as I did here, to give an idea what you're
replying to. We keep messages shorter by doing this so that if
someone looks back at the old messages, it's more streamlined, I
think. Anyway, that's the infraction I'm most often reminded of.
Also, everyone is encouraged to sign their name at the ends
of their messages so we get to know you. I guess a name is easier to
remember than blixen4444 or something like that.
Also, we try to stay on topic, info and questions relating to
Cushing's and IR. Sometimes, if an off-topic thread starts, it gets
moved to another sister discussion group.
Really, there aren't too many rules. Try to be polite and
sympathetic, the usual protocol.
Or maybe you mean instructions about how to search the files
and the old messages?
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...

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Did he mention the iron level they were addressing?

Carol and Blue in Maine

Hi Patti:

Thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it! Dr. Kellon replied
also and has mentioned EPSM to me which has never been considered
before, you can see my reply to her. I have a word document history
on Cody made up already which I'm going to try & forward tomorrow if
I can figure it out how to attach it?! I had trouble getting into
the case history link? Anyway I have limited internet use so always
run out of time. Thanks again for answering me, Ev

--- In EquineCushings@..., "plwoodbury"
<DesertHorses@...> wrote:

Hi Ev ~
Thanks for being patient - sometimes, with so much activity, some

posts get missed. (And

putting in the message number worked fine.)

Offhand, "low" insulin generally means the low sugar/starch diet is

working well. If the

insulin was low but the glucose high, then that would suggest

actual diabetes - but not

the case here.

That you had an apparent "seasonal high" on Cody's ACTH could mean

he needs some

medication during the fall/winter. From your description, he sounds

like he is IR but

currently controlled. And that he's been "chronically foundered"

might mean he's more

susceptible to sugar/starch, especially if combined with other

physical hoof issues.

A case history would help - not only for us to help sort through,

but in keeping the

sequence of events organized for you. If you fill out the case

history form in Folder #9 in

the files http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files,

I'm sure your new

vet/farrier would also appreciate a copy. A lot of things depend on

his history, use and

current activity level, etc.
Why not download the form when you have access to the net, then

fill it out at your leisure. You can then upload it the next time you
can get online. (And you will then also

have this nice, organized record in your files : )

And definitely agree - let's NOT give up on Cody!!!!

Patti K
Vail AZ

Hi All - I've had no responses to my post of June 6th (mess#

111041, I

don't know how to link it?). If anyone has the time to take a

look I'd

really appreciate it. I'm wondering if after all these years of
struggle & chronic laminitis this "lower than normal" insulin

level

means he's not insulin resistant after all & normal ACTH so not
Cushings either???

Sorry about that...I use powerpaks

Hi Dr. Kellon -

No, he wasn't fasted, had his normal hay & T.B. Cubes, supplements,
etc. at 7:30am, the vet came mid-day when Cody was out on "sparse"
grass paddock. Re the founder, I have confirming X-Rays from 1996,
2002 & 2006, showing rotation & the last one some sinking. The only
digital photos I have of his feet are from 2006 but they look much
worse now. Yes, this is his 1st insulin test. He foundered July/96,
Feb/00, Feb/02 & Feb/07. I think most of his lameness currently is
from deformed hoof capsules with coronary band pinching & contracted
tendons? I live in Mt. Albert, Ontario, Canada. I actually have a 2
page word document history that I could forward along with the hoof
photos from 2006 if I can figure out how to attach & send them! You
will be able to see what a long journey we've had. Never once has
EPSM ever been mentioned until you and a "light bulb" has now gone
off. I've googled some of the EPSM info and Cody does have the
strange rear leg movements mentioned which I have always put down to
sore front feet! He is also very thin now with a lot of muscle
wasting (used to be fat & cresty necked). I will mention this to the
new vet/farrier that is coming out next week. Thanks so much for
your time in responding & I'll try & figure out how to send the
attachments tomorrow.
Sincerely, Ev


--- In EquineCushings@..., "Eleanor Kellon, VMD"
<drkellon@...> wrote:

Hi Ev,

Was he fasted before the test? With that kind of blood work results

I

would be suspicious of EPSM. QHs with EPSM are very insulin

sensitive,

the reverse of IR. Being overweight doesn't always mean IR,

sometimes

just too much food, not enough work. Low insulin doesn't mean

anything

unless the glucose is abnormally high.

Why he has laminitis is another issue. Do you have confirming X-

rays?

Could you post photos of his feet? Is this his first insulin test?

What

time of year does he get laminitis? Is he still actively laminitic?
Where do you live?

Eleanor
www.drkellon.com

I do too, use both....I am on the Pfizer Preventa Care Program. The Pfizer
program covers 100% of the costs should you require colic surgery. I don't
carry equine health insurance YIKES ...... but I have seen them pick up a
$6,000.00 surgery bill because the owner was on the program.

P.S. to my post: Kasha is on ODTB cubes, a couple handfuls of TC Safe
Starch Forage, R/S/R BP with 2 oz flax, 1200 IU vitamin E, 2 T salt, a
handful of Blue Seal Carb Guard & 1/2 cup flakes from the cubes mixed
in for taste. I put 2.5 mg powdered pergolyde on top. That's his whole
diet, and it has been that way for about 4 months. He gets NO treats; I
did try to give him a Skodes brownie once a day for a few days, but he
appeared to be more sore in his feet, so I stopped that (just in case
that was the reason). He wears Soft Ride boots all the time.
Kathy & Kasha

Kasha's ACTH is now 284 (normal range is 9-35); his insulin is 126.46
(normal 10-40). There was a misunderstanding, so I didn't get the
glucose level, but I can do that; however, it hardly matters at this
point. My vet said Kasha probably has the metabolic disorder in
addition to the Cushings. Kasha is on 2.5 mg pergolide--am I right in
assuming I should be upping it? How much should I do? He's 27, and all
we want now is to let him live as long as he can as comfortably as he
can. He still enjoys his life, so in light of the tests, what can I do
make it better?

Along with what Joan said, my vet prescribed 1800 mg of this powder I got from Vet Pet Solutions/Thriving Pets. If I was to use the human form from Wal-mart, and they are 25 mg each, we would need to give 72 tablets per day. That is for treatment. Maintenance I believe is half because I was quoted from Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook that treating dose is 4 mg/kg (horse weight) and maintenance dose is 2 mg/kg. A 1000 lb horse is 454 kg. 454x4=1800 mg, 454x2=900 mg.
Again it is best to consult with the vet to be sure.
Kathy

Re: Generic Omeprazole
Posted by: "Joan and Dazzle" horsies4luv@... horsies4luv
Date: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:13 am ((PDT))
Ulcergard contains 2.28 grams of omeprazole per tube. If you use it at
the recommended 1/4 tube per dose, that gives you 570 mg per dose.
When administering drugs without your vets direction, it's extremely
important to be aware of the dosage that you are giving.
Joan and Dazzle

We give 5 human omeprazole per day to equal 100mg. I think that's

what the ulcergard dose was. We have mostly smaller horses so maybe we
adjusted the dose accordingly ? Can't remember.