Date   

Re: Balancing Hay with Lower Iron

5 Pine Ranch
 

Never ever add iron. Balance to the high Mn.

Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
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Teff grass for grazing

Julia Bonar <keystone@...>
 

Does anyone know if Teff grass can be planted for grazing purposes. The hay tests so low NSC that my hay dealer suggested planting it for the boys to graze on. Would the NSC be lower in Teff grass than other grasses? How would it hold up to grazing. It is an annual so it needs planted annually but I can do 10 acres for $300 sure is a whole lot cheaper than cubes or hay year round.

Julia


Re: Balancing Hay with Lower Iron

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "hollisjennie"
<hollisjennie@...> wrote:

Check message 115723. Claire gives a great answer to your question.
She suggest leaving the Iron as-is in most cases. Probably balancing
3:1, Manganese/Zinc to Copper, is the thing to do.
Thanks for the responses. What does Claire consider very young in
this message? I am also feeding a two year-old and a three year-old.
The three year-old is in moderate work now. Are they safe to have the
low Fe/Cu ratio?

Carol


Re: are nutrition changes worth it?

Joan and Dazzle
 

Hi Lori,

Your math is good. Those numbers are totally acceptable.

You left the iron:copper ratio at 7.8:1 . This is acceptable. But,
if any of your horses are having issues - cushings, ir, iron
overload, etc, I would suggest that you increase the copper and the
zinc so that you're bringing down the iron:copper ratio closer to
4:1. This just gives you a little added level of antioxidant
protection. And, if you decided to increase the copper and zinc,
you don't "really" need to increase the manganese. It will cause
that ratio to be a little lower, which is OK too.

Now, you have to remember that the increase in the copper and zinc
may make any supplement that you give less palatable. So you have to
remember that too.

Joan and Dazzle

--- In EquineCushings@..., annianda@... wrote:

Hi everyone,

I just want to check my math on this to make sure I'm doing it
right. Below
is my grass hay analysis. It checked out great as far as NSC! Only
5.5!

My calculations tell me I need to add 167mg Copper to balance out
the high
Manganese. I also need to add 482mg of Zinc. Am I right?


Re: Ursila's story

Jeanie
 

Condolences on the loss of such a special friend.
Jeanie



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Re: Balancing Hay with Lower Iron

Jennie
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Carol" <clbroyles55@...> wrote:

For the first time, I have a hay analysis back with lower iron (56
ppm).
My question is, should I add iron and more copper and zinc to get a
ratio of 4:1:3:3 for Fe:Cu:Zn:Mn or should I just balance to the
manganese and leave the iron low?
Hi Carol

Check message 115723. Claire gives a great answer to your question.
She suggest leaving the Iron as-is in most cases. Probably balancing
3:1, Manganese/Zinc to Copper, is the thing to do.

Jennie


Re: New Here - Test Results

Jeanie
 

Papballou said "Your comment about Purina caught my eye. Unless they have
reformulated that product, our files show it at 16% ".

My response is that it is a heckuva lot better than some of their feeds.
You will note, in my message, I did issue a warning that using it would not be
ideal, that the emergency diet would be best, and that I am not a fan of
Purina. Considering where the OP is, however, she may run into trouble getting
some of the things needed. I believe it always helps to give people as many
possible options as we can, but in this case, there is no firm diagnosis yet.
I would be willing to bet the horse in question is IR, and the HorseChow at
16% NSC would be much better than increasing the Senior Feed. FWIW, 16% is
approximately what some of the lower starch Triple Crown feeds test at, so 16%
is ** not ** the worst possible thing to try.
Jeanie



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Re: Balancing Hay with Lower Iron

blue6631 <rubyivireo@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Carol" <clbroyles55@...> wrote:

My question is, should I add iron and more copper and zinc to get a
ratio of 4:1:3:3 for Fe:Cu:Zn:Mn or should I just balance to the
manganese and leave the iron low?
TIA,
Carol
My hay analysis was just done and checked over on the board here. My
iron was low as well 73.29. It was just left low.
michelle o


question about testing - should I get hay AND pasture tested?

Gina Keesling
 

My horses get about two hours of unrestricted grazing time per day. I
plan to increase that this winter, depending on how everybody does.

Our hay was baled from the very same field that they are pasturing on.
It's almost pure grass, and was rained on during the curing process.

I am preparing to send off a sample of the hay for testing, and was
wondering if I should send pasture sample too? Or can we assume that
it's going to be similar as it's the same field?

Thanks in advance.

Gina
--

Gina Keesling, owner


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Re: new blood results

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "emjewelry" <emjewelry@...>
wrote:

She has been lame free since the summer of 2004 ... and she lives in
a dry lot with a balanced diet.

If someone sees something I am missing let me know what your
suggestions are.

Exercise? What's her work level?

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)


Re: New Here - Test Results

Jeanie
 

It will be very important to get a glucose and insulin ratio calculation,
and that requires appropriate blood pull diagnostics. The information to give
your Vet, if he or she is not familiar with this, is in the files of this
group (log into yahoogroups.com to search the files). Your description "She
started losing weight quickly about 1 1/2 months ago and starving all the time "
is most likely either IR, or if not, that she needs more hay and/or digestive
help via RationPlus or Forco. Not all IR horses are overweight. The only
way to know is to get a correct diagnosis, and that will require additional
testing. Have you tried the emergency diet? If it is difficult either for
reasons of finances or Veterinary availability to do further testing,
implementing the emergency diet will tell you pretty quickly if IR is the problem. If
the 'starving all the time' is because of the IR problem, you will see
dramatic improvements soon after starting it.

In the meantime, if it is hard for you to implement the emergency diet at
the moment, if she has trouble eating hay, as a stopgap measure (not perfect but
will tell you if the issue is needs more forage) one of the lower NSC feeds
available from Purina is Horse Chow 100, which is basically a hay pellet.
You could try adding that to what you currently are feeding, see if it makes a
difference. If getting more 'forage' in a form she can chew does not work,
that adds urgency to the need for diagnosis of possible Insulin Resistance.
If she is IR, then you will find tremendously helpful information in the
files of this group on various feeding choices beyond the emergency diet, such as
Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes, Mid Valley pellets, sometimes referred
to as Steretts, or a few other options). (I personally am not a fan of
Purina, but I know in some places of the country, that is all one can find. Since
you mentioned Nutrena, that is a hopeful sign that you have some options).
Jeanie



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Balancing Hay with Lower Iron

 

For the first time, I have a hay analysis back with lower iron (56
ppm). I have been balancing this hay with ~50 mg Cu and 100 mg Zn for
17 lbs of hay fed. However, the manganese is also 56 ppm. This makes
the Mn:Cu 4:1 instead of 3:1.

My question is, should I add iron and more copper and zinc to get a
ratio of 4:1:3:3 for Fe:Cu:Zn:Mn or should I just balance to the
manganese and leave the iron low?

I asked this same question in a roundabout way earlier and never got a
response, so I thought I would re-word it. I didn't ask this during
the nutrition course since my hay was always a lot higher in iron.

TIA,
Carol


TFTT - was / along with - Not so new - NEED HELP, PLEASE

em <arak331@...>
 

Lars, here's a link that goes into more detail:
http://www.ironfreehoof.com/top.htm . I think that there are videos on
YouTube also. Basically what I'm doing iv very minimal - keeping the toes
back up and doing a mustang roll. What are your suggestions, please?

Namaste,

em


Ref post:
Hi Ellen,

Sorry to interfere, but exactly what do you mean with "rasping from
the top"?

Lars


Re: re- Not so new - NEED HELP, PLEASE

lars_a_swe
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "em" <arak331@...> wrote:

I do my own trimming, with periodic checks from an excellent
barefoot
trimmer. She's had a history of chronic laminitis, but was sound
prior to
my last trim (basically a minimal rasping from the top and
balancing the
heels) on 28 July. Her toes are backed up, heels low and
balanced. She is
flat-footed, though, on the fores.
Hi Ellen,

Sorry to interfere, but exactly what do you mean with "rasping from
the top"?

If you are thinning the hoof wall please don't do this on a laminitic
horse. It will only worsen the situation. If your horse has flat feet
she probably already has quite a large distal decent (sunken coffin
bone). Weakening the hoof capsule by thinning the hoof wall may
increase the distal decent.

Lars


Re: new blood results

Mandy Woods
 

Melanie,
Would it be possible that your mare is becoming more IR sensitive as she ages?
Your hay may be just too high in esc/s for her now. Can you 'cut' it with some other
hay or ODTBC to expirement?
Mandy


Re: are nutrition changes worth it?

lars_a_swe
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "eklundapt" <eklundapt@>
wrote:

I wanted to know if balancing my horses nutrition will make
changes
in
their every day health, especially in their hooves. How long
does it
take to see any changes? I have been trying to get nice rock
crunching hooves and concaved soles, but haven't achieved that.
Will
this help. I appreciate your help! Thanks! Karen

YES, YES, YES!

I have exactly the same experience as Kathleen. Every summer/fall my
horse suffered from WLD. The hooves were full of cracks and he flared
easily. When I started balancing his feed the WLD disappeared, the
hoof cracks and the flares didn't disappear but they grew out, and
the new hoof wall grew with a much tighter connection to the coffin
bone.

Go for it! I would be very surprised if a balanced diet didn't work
for your horse.

Lars


Re: Need to check hay analysis results

Lori Long
 

First, I am wondering why you didn't try to balance to the Iron.<<
I was using the Excel sheet and was relying on the data it output. It must
not have picked up on the high iron.... unless, of course, I'm doing it wrong.
That's why I wanted to check this out. Are you using the sheet where you do
it all long hand?

Lori, Anni, FiFi and the boys

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Re: are nutrition changes worth it?

J Amick
 

Karen you need to go to the files section and read about the DDT...
Diagnosis, Diet and Trim.

My gelding started out just as you are describing and continued to get
worse. He was a "sinker" and had no concavity in the soles. To this
day he still doesn't...

I'd ck him for being Insulin Resistant and get him started on the
"emergency diet" as well.
These are very important steps. My problems all stemmed from tick
bites that = lyme disease
and that was a total metobolic screw up in his system. Cushings then
came out as well.

Judy-PA
Karen Eklund wrote:

A vet that is a lameness specialist said he needed to be "stood up".
That of course made him more sore. He doesn't seem to have pain when
i push on the bottoms of his sole, but he continues to get less
concavity in his soles. I'm thinking he is thin soled. Karen




Re: Pergolide capsules, 3 MG Free

5 Pine Ranch
 

We are so sorry for your loss.......

Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
Please Visit Our Site!


New Here - Test Results

melfrool
 

I've been reading your boards for a while now and just recently
posted a question about Pergolide. When Cushings was initially
suspected I thought it was a death sentence and have been relieved to
see that's not accurate. I got the test results today and
wanted to post them. I will do a profile but it looks a little
intimidating and I would like some feed back for now.
Lotto is a 25 year old mare (as far as I know anyway--I've had her
for 11 years and she was supposedly 14 when I got her), quarterhorse
mix with possible thoroughbred although no one knows for sure.
Hasn't slicked down for the past few years but hasn't been too bad in
the summers. Very thick, wavy coat for the past few winters. This
summer keeping the shaggy coat off her has been almost impossible.
She started losing weight quickly about 1 1/2 months ago and starving
all the time. No other symptoms. Hoofs have always been good and no
other problems with her. (Unlike my 14 year old gelding who is
overweight, crested neck, and foundered twice and always ouchy in the
fall. Yes-he's getting a diet change and will be tested too.) Teeth
floated every year and vet says what she has is still good. I've
been feeding Lotto beet pulp and Nutrena senior feed and she is
gaining weight back. She is out on my approx. 7 acre pasture about 10
hours a day and I give her some grass hay to chew on although she
just quids it. I gave her some soaked hay tonight to see if she
could chew/swallow it better. I actually think her weight loss was
because she's become dentally challenged but I don't know that for
sure and no glocuse or other testing was done. (No, my gelding is
not getting any of the senior feed or beet pulp.) The beginning of
August my 9 year old daughter used Lotto for her first year at the
county fair and won 5 ribbons on her for western riding, reining,
pleasure, etc. so Lotto still gets around really well and is an
awesome horse. (Her attitude is basically that she's done everything
and knows everything so just sit back and enjoy the ride.)

The test results came from Michigan State University.

Cortisol, Baseline 119 Ref Range 85-180 Units nmol/L
Cortisol 15 h post dex 141 H Ref Range 0-30 Units nmol/L
Cortisol 19 h post dex 129 H Ref Range 0-30 Units nmol/L

"08/22/08 - There is poor suppression of cortisol in response to the
administration of dexamethasone. These results support a diagnosis
of equine Cushing's syndrome."

The Vet prescribed Pergolide - .5 mg - 1 tab SID . I will be
ordering them from ThrivingPets.com thanks to you wonderful people.
(As opposed to Canada where my vet's office first directed me.)

Any feedback on these results would be greatly appreciated. I've
noticed that Lotto is now dropping a lot of the senior feed while
eating it--so I may need to soak that. Suggestions would also be
appreciated to actually get the food into her. Evidently I'll need
to ask the vet for more bloodwork as well. What specifically do I
ask for?

Glennda/Lotto in Wyoming

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