Judy Lessard <lessardj@...>
Due to the recent discovery of chronic wasting disease in Michigan, the baiting of deer is now illegal. I read in the Farm Bureau's newspaper that sugar beet growers in MI now won't have a market for their product.
So, there certainly won't be a shortage of sugar beets for beet pulp in Michigan.
Judith L. Lessard
Publications and Media Relations
College of Veterinary Medicine
Michigan State University
F-130 Veterinary Medical Center
East Lansing, MI 48824
CVM website: http://cvm.msu.edu
Re: Bailadora-Wendy new member - extreme fast weight loss
Background to BET labs blood test... Vet required mare be fed hay only
for the day blood was drawn, not a fasting type of test. No Sr Equine
feed, no beet pulp to be fed. Vet told me the test was for cortisol,
insulin and thyroid levels using diurnal levels and results would help
diagnose cushings from a US lab. Trusted the vet to know which test to
run and which lab to send it to. Now that I know which lab/test has
been run, I'll revisit the files here again.
Any other comments/observations on BET lab results? Keep them coming!
Wendy and Bailadora in Cambridge, Ontario
new crop BP
My local paper reported that as of Midnight Wednesday the new crop of sugar beets were starting to be lifted from the fields here in the Red River Valley of ND. We have Crystal Sugar and Midwest Agri Commodities here in this area.
I have no clue how long it takes from pulling a beet out of the ground to stock-piling to waiting till they start to process them to when the shreds are available. They will continue all through the fall and winter and try to be done before the frozen stock-piled beets thaw in the spring. For some reason the frozen beets are harder to extract the sugars from.
Re: re - acetyl l-carnitine Dr. Kellon - EPM
Drat. I was hoping that this would be good news . .
Dr K - does this mean that acetyl l-carnitine would be useful intreating
EPM horses?Probably not. In EPM, the nerve cell bodies are actually destroyed. In
the diabetic/IR neuropathies, it's the myelin sheaths on the nerve
fibers that are damaged.
Pergolide caps vs Permax tablets
In my never ending quest to save money...
I can get Permax tablets-they are still registered for use in Australia-
1 mg $245 x 100, or Pergolide Capsules 1 mg x 100 $325.
I know that they are the same drug, but are there any issues that I'm
missing with using the tablet?
Re: Bailadora-Wendy new member - extreme fast weight loss
Joan and Dazzle
Linda might be envious of those insulin numbers, but I'd be
suspicious. You find insulin numbers that low in a thoroughbred that
was fasting. Or if the sample handling was not adequate and they sat
in the truck too long, got warm on the trip, or sat on a loading
dock all afternoon being shipped.
You are right in being concerned. The weight loss is not necessarily
a good thing. The fall after Dazzle's surgery, she had a really
tough time. I ended up putting her on pergolide, but by then, it was
December. It took us over a year to get her back to where she had
been prior to that fall.
Knowing that your horse is 18, and this is the time of year that
ACTH increases, I would be pro-active if this were Dazzle.
I would assume that the insulin numbers were due to sample handling
and treat as if insulin resistant. At 18, in light of the fact that
you had gone through a surgery last year, I'd probably also just
jump right in with pergolide. I don't believe in medicating horses
that don't need it. But after seeing how far our horses can slide is
From your case history, she has signs of both insulin resistance and
Joan and Dazzle
--- In EquineCushings@..., "Linda" <PapBallou@...> wrote:
she was in a fasting state (>4hrs), that might be the reason theyare
Re: Does soaking hay take out good stuff too?
I am wondering if this will beHi Lydia -
Surface contamination goes out, as well as potassium, which would be a
problem with an HYPP horse. Several people have posted pre/post
soaking test analyses and there has been minimal changes. I had asked
a similar question, wanting to know if I should balance to hay before
soaked or after. I was told the changes were minimal and to simply
balance to dry hay.
While this post is addressing another issue, it does mention what is
in the soak water. 112304
Hope this helps.
Does soaking hay take out good stuff too?
I am having to soak the hay for one horse but she is used to being
turned out with others. I have been soaking the hay for two of them
instead so she can have companionship. I am wondering if this will be
detrimental in any way to a horse that does not need the sugar soaked
out? What else goes out with the rinse water?
Re: Hello new here
have been battling
a chronic laminitis with my horse Banjo for over a month now.Hi Virginia (Is that right?)
Welcome to the group and so very sorry you are in the situation you
are in, but be glad you *stumbled* onto us. This group is on the
leading edge (or probably is THE leading edge) in management of
cushings and insulin resistance.
You had the dex test done? Well, while that was *once* the gold
standard, the simple ACTH is the test we prefer. The reason is that
the dex can worsen laminitis, or cause it in horses that have
Did the vet draw an glucose and insulin as well? Those are necessary
to sort out if the horse is IR. Both IR and EC frequently present
themselves first with laminitis. So both tests need to be done.
Our focus is DDT/E - diagnosis, diet, trim and exercise if able. You
are part way there on the diagnosis.
Now you MUST change his diet. Grass hay is the basis, (no alfalfa)
but you need to soak it for at least an hour in water, or half an hour
in hot water. This will decrease the simple sugars (our enemies) by
at least one third. Then feed it to him. Most horses have no
problems eating soaked hay. Four of mine have been doing it for 2
years! Try to feed in small meals instead of just breakfast and dinner
Often, this simple process of soaking the hay will turn a horse around
in a few days, some even less...but it is what is absolutely necessary
at this time until you are able to test your grass to see what
sugars/starch it has. We recommend 1.5-2% of the horse's weight in hay.
You can replace some of the hay with beet pulp (low in sugar and
starch and high in good energy calories) by rinsing, soaking and
rinsing again. Even non-molasses BP has molasses in it! About a
pound of BP equals about 2 pounds of grass. Delete as many sugar
calories as is possible.
NO GRAZING! AT ALL!
You should have received some info documents when you joined. Read
them as soon as possible. You will be overwhelmed, but we're here to
help sort it all out for you and make this as simple as possible.
We also want to make certain the horse has a correct trim. You
mentioned he has some rotation. A short toe/low heel trim is
recommended. Also, you need to back off the bute once the laminitis
begins to resolve. Bute actually inhibits healing.
Just so you know, this is the time of year where laminitis hits many
horses. A hormone called cortisol is naturally higher this time of
the year, and in horses that are cushings, IR or maybe getting there,
they often will become foot sore or have frank laminitis.
So take a deep breath. Read the info you were sent. We have a huge
library of files of all kinds of info, but for now, fire away with
your questions. We want you and your horse to get through this as
quickly as possible.
You are not alone.
On the West
Re: Hay mesh nets
This discussion has moved to ECPhotos.
EC Hall Monitor/Moderator
Re: 11 horses tested....my results...
--- In EquineCushings@..., "Mandy Woods"
with. There are some things we can help you with.Thanks so much. Very helpful. I hope to get more informed. I will
ask Julie about how to balance the hay. She posted the test results
but I don't know what the next step is. I will get some duct tape
tomorrow to cover the hole up. Also, I found it interesting that once
we restricted grazing for the haflinger, she developed a beautiful
floaty extended trot. Before, she had a shorter stride and wasn't as
fluid. She also had a great trim from a barefoot trimmer so that may
be part of the reason as well. Either way, I am very excited that she
is a cuter and more fluid mover after some dietary changes and a
barefoot trim. Thanks for the help. I look forward to learning
Re: Hay mesh nets
--- In EquineCushings@..., "jarrahbrearebreazebridie"
it and pulled with her teeth and a few holes tore. I mended it by just
gathering the holes with a clip -not sure what they are called. You
could do the same with rings made for key chains. It was a very easy
fix. The net I got is meant to fit onto a pole that has a very large
circumfrance ring on the end of it. That's why I trimmed it down to a
circumferance I could deal with. It cost about 22.00. I'm going to
keep looking for a thicker stringed fishing net. You can also buy
netting by the foot that's meant to keep people from going overboard on
their boats -safty netting it's called. Although very thin it's very
strong and very easy to fix if it breaks. Let me know if you find a
distributor for anything better in the thickness dept.
Re: 11 horses tested....my results...
Thanks for the encouragement and the tips. Is is ok to allow them
on grass at night in muzzles so that they can stretch their legs?
The dry paddock is tiny and I don't know if I will be allowed to
make a bigger one. Would I be better off to tape off the bottom
hole in the muzzle? What about being out in the day with a muzzle
with a taped hole? I will read up on the emergency diet and
minerals and get that implemented ASAP. I am lucky to have good
guidance from Julie at my barn. Thanks again for the helpful
--- In EquineCushings@..., "Kathleen Gustafson"
Re: Dealing with arthritis in the Cushings/IR horse
Erin R. <figure1789@...>
My old Vet prescribed Adequan in a way that was "off label." (Meaning, it
was not FDA approved.) She said to give one shot a week for 4 weeks, then 1
shot each month for maintenance. I went that route, and have had great
results. I'm not telling everyone to go out and follow that protocol. Just
wanted to share my experiences.
Conquer is oral hyaluronic. The Legend shots, I believe (not positive here)
are injected HA. Adequan is in a class of drugs called PSGAGS-
(Polysulfated glycosaminoglycans) are commonly used to treat traumatic and
degenerative joint diseases in performance horses medically.
Erin & Nick
Hello new here
I just stumbled into this group the other day and have been battling
a chronic laminitis with my horse Banjo for over a month now. I
really need any help that can be had. You see Banjo isn't just any
horse, he's my baby alright, but he is more than that. He worked full-
time for a therapeutic riding program until he got foot sore out of
the blue. The child at the program don't understand why that can't
ride him and that is the saddest thing of all. The program is running
on a shoe string budget and that is why I let them use Banjo. They
cannot afford to replace him and are currently using horses that are
not suited for this type of work.
The cost of his treatment is mine and no burden to them, but I would
like to get Banjo back to where they might be able to use him again
as I know that he misses the work as much as the kids miss him. I
just know nothing about Cushing's and looking at the bit that I have
learned in the last few hours I feel that only 1 vet in my area as a
vague clue on the subject.
I have posted a case history, but if anyone thinks that any other
information is needed. please let me know. I don't have the numbers
from the dex? test yet, my mother talked to the vet this morning.
Thank you for being here.
Photo of Arab in wrong place
Apologies, photo in wrong place. It is in Karen B's Slowe Down Feeder
Not sure how to remove, I will give it a go.
Re: cushings - looking back??
Jamie Greenebaum <Jamie@...>
I look back and see an overweight horse with fat deposits. And when my mare
developed the fatty deposits over her eyes the vet put her on Thryo L and
dismissed it as just an older horse thing. And she was kept on it for
something like 4 years. Until I moved and changed vets. And the new, and I
believe wonderful, vet said why?
Possible to lower ACTH enough in fall?? (Uncontrollable ACTH)
I have been trying to get my 24yo TB geldings ACTH into Cornell's
normal range(9-35) since he was diagnosed with Cushings just over 2
years ago and have not yet succeeded. A month ago he was on 4mg
pergolide per day and tested at 62.1. I increased his dose to
5mg/day and retested this monday and his ACTH was 61.1, so basically
unchanged. (As reference, in August 2007 his ACTH was 72 in August
on only 1.5mg/day.)
So...is it possible to get his ACTH into the normal range??? Are
there any other drugs or herbs that could possibly help??? It
doesn't seem that pergolide has enough of an effect on Kelton's
pituitary tumor. Can anything else be playing into this?? (His
original ACTH in Aug 2006 was over 200.)
Clinically, he looks brighter on the 5mg/day dose than he was on 4mg.
I am hesitant to raise the pergolide any further.
Any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Kellie and Kelton
Arab Gelding - endurance prospect, diet and advice
This is the first time I have posted on here.
I have a 5 y.o. arab gelding, we are located in SE Queensland,
He has always been difficult to keep weight on, according to previous
owners and this has been my experience too.
He has completed some heavy training and a couple of 40k training rides.
He was foundered when I bought him and there is still some flaring to
some extent @ the medial quarters, but I feel this may be more
mechanical, of course I cannot be sure.
He is currently resting and living on a 'Founder Track/Paddock Paradise
system'. This is having some success with de-contracting his feet and
flares are being addressed. Built up sole is now coming away and his
feet are changing shape nicely. He is barefoot and always will be.
His current resting diet is beet-pulp, vit/min mix, black sunflower
seeds, canola oil and I have now started adding some Economix which is
an extruded grain meal at a rate of 1 cup twice a day in the hope that
he will put some weight on. There is also grass on track (not much and
sugar content of this may be of concern) and free choice Rhodes grass
His winter coat is taking time to shed and it 'stares'. It is mainly
overly long under his neck, face and and body. His hindquarters are
looking a little sleeker, but basically he looks in poor condition.
Trimming his feet of his shedding sole I noticed the red in the laminae
at the toe (sole was shedding at the toe too, as the build up was there
as well, he was landing toe first and has just starting landing heel
He has started to pick up condition since adding the oil.
His routine is as follows:
6am - out onto the grass in the middle of the 'Paddock Paradise' set up
for 3 hrs.
9am - Bring back onto track and morning feed of small amount of
sugarbeet pulp/sunflower seeds/canola oil/Mitavite Economix (Mitavite a
recent addition in the last few days) and vit and mineral mix (standard
Grassy Rhodes Hay placed around the 0.7km track to eat as and when
throughout the day.
5.30/6pm - evening feed of the same.
Nighttime on the track.
I will post a current picture of him. As I say, his coat is taking
time to shed. He is not rugged and was only rugged during the winter
the night before I rode him, so that he was not 'cold' in the morning
before his ride.
Any comments and suggestions would be appreciated.
cushings - looking back??
OK - how many of you with a full blown cushings horse now recognize things that you didn't? We often have such great hind-sight so am curious what things come to mind after the fact?