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Jacks blood results( a little long)

ponyjackpal <takarri@...>
 

Hello everyone

I have got some of Jacks blood results back & I would appreciate some
help in understanding.

The test results read as sent:

General Biochemistry: Specimen: Serum
Trig: 0.9mmol/L (0.1-0.9)

* Preserved Glucose (FLOX) 7.8 mmol/L (3.3-6.7)

SERUM INDICES (Clear/+/++/+++)
Icterus index clear
Lipaemia index clear
Haemolysis index clear

mild Hyperglycaemia is likey stress induced ( I would agree- it took
me nearly an hour to get a sample on my own as he kept on moving just
at the wrong time-therefore what was supposed to be 2 hrs after a
feed, became 3 hrs)

THYROID STUDIES SPECIMEN: SERUM
- Total Thyroxine (T4) 9.6 nmol.L (15.0-74.0)

Comment:

Low T4 in equines can suggest hypothyroidism: this is poorly
characterised in adult horses, but a congenital form is recognised in
foals. Low T4 may also be seen with non-thyroidal illness,
administration of phenylbutazone or corticosteriods, diets high in
energy,protein,zinc or copper or diets low in iodine,fasting or
ingestion of endophyte-infected pastures.

Any thoughts?

Jack is not on bute or steroids, I don't believe his diet is an issue-
I think I've got that under control after the help I have had from
the list- fasting? He was not locked up/has access to 3 acres-
stubble -not much- more dust than stubble/not green/ at night- low
nsc.
This is the 1st time Jack has been tested & this is the protocol that
I intend to keep for any repeat bloods/ apart from getting help next
time!
I will google endophyte to see what that is unless someone beats me
to it
Many Thanks
Pauline & Jack


Re: Just got hay analysis and bloodwork back

Joan and Dazzle
 

Lindsey,

WOW!!! Great job!!

Good work. It's hard to pull it all together AND get your horse to
respond, but you're doing it!!

You want to aim for normal. This has to be a lifestyle change for
your boy. As you probably know, you can sometimes control insulin
resistance, but when the diet starts to slide, it can and will flair
up out of control. You have to be vigilant. And resolve that Mrs.
Pasture's cookies will not be part of his life in the future.

Your hay looks good as far as sugar and starch goes. I think it's a
good idea to have Dr. Kellon balance your hay.

Great job again!

Joan and Dazzle

--- In EquineCushings@..., "arabsporthorse"
<arabsporthorse@...> wrote:

First of all, another thank you to this list! I believe it's
possible
Sei would no longer be here if I hadn't found this site.

He is a different horse than the one I had 8 months ago.


Tech question - how to upload the x-rays?

Stacy
 

I have a disc with x-rays taken of my horses feet yesterday. Is there
a trick to uploading them? I am getting an error saying the format is
not supported. I would really like to get feedback. My vet says they
look great, but the P3 doesn't look level to me yet. My farrier is
coming next week. Thanks -

Stacy


Re: Have unopened Pergolide for sale/Goodbye to Rocket

Cindy McGinley
 

Judy, we are so sorry to hear about Rocket, but glad he went without much suffering. He was lucky to have ended up with you for his remaining years. Our condolences and heartfelt hugs.

- Cindy and Alf (and Connie and Dare and Saffron) in NY


Re: Tests on Bertha in SC

Cindy McGinley
 

"Larson" <seahorses3@...> wrote:

Ann, so good to hear about Bertha - and we ARE interested!

We sure are. Keep us informed!


And P.S. Get used to replacing all sorts of equipment - fences are just the start. Thank Heaven for the wonderful nature of drafts, or they'd drive you nuts.

And watch your toes...they certainly won't! ;-)

- Cindy and Alf (and entourage) in NY


Re: pics

Cindy McGinley
 

"goodnewfgril" <ralf.jansen@...> wrote:

Might want to body-clip her and start over with that coat. At least
she would be more comfortable that way.
**********************
I don't know about the weather in NY at present.. but I live in
Ontario, and She'll be needing that coat a wee bit longer..lol.
It's not uncomfortable in this cold weather is it?

If she's sweating under that coat (and it looks like she is), then the coat is doing her no good as insulation against the cold anyway. A horse that you might have to blanket when the temps dip is better than a wet horse when the temps dip, who will catch a chill from being wet in the freezing temps. It will be *much* easier to keep her clean and get that dandruff cleared up, too.

My horse Alf is body-clipped in the winter because he sweats under that heavy Cushings coat even in really cold weather. It's sometimes part of the disease. (We're in central NY...similar weather to yours.)

- Cindy and Alf (and entourage) in NY


Re: Cinderella's glucose

julie <juliecongleton@...>
 

Thanks for the support...I've just spent a while reading. I found
where Dr. Kellon says p.m. for ACTH is most desireable. HOWEVER, on
the calculation sheet it clearly states: I and G must be from same
blood draw:( Cornell talked to my vet this a.m. at 8 and told her what
to redo and how to do it....now I am so bummed, what is the point of
even sending this second serum in for I/ACTH? I guess the ACTH will
count but the I is not from the G draw.....one was yesterday and the
other was today. We've got it down now, she stuck a syringe into the
unit, pulled the tube out, I held the tubes while she pipette'd out the
serum not touching the red blood cells. She actually drew/spun two
tubes and put the serum from both into one that I am to ship in the
a.m. Why did Cornell not just tell us to redo it all? I am just
wondering if and when I'll get real numbers...and did my glucose get
screwed up, based on the note????
I am going to call Cornell in the a.m. before shipping, but they might
not feel it's okay to talk to me, you know..I was worried the whole
time we were out there if this was the right protocol. The vet was
anxious to right the wrong. It is a learning/artful experience for me
and her.


Re: Hi, I'm new here...

higardener
 

Mandy-

Since posting to you I found the "start here" link-
I think all my questions (so far) are answered there.

Thanks again!
Step-mom to Cowboy and Buckshot


Re: Cinderella's glucose

Larson <seahorses3@...>
 

Julie, I promise it will get easier - and better. I can't speak to the a.m. or p.m. thing (I'm just happy when my vet is able to get here at all), but I've watched my vet look at the finished "product" after spinning and no comment ever gotten back on the lab report - the tubes should come out of the centrifuge without tipping it over. If your vet spun it right after taking the blood, there's no delay involved, and if she took the serum out carefully without going into the "red" area at the bottom, you should be fine.

If she screwed up, she would/should do it over - carefully!

Carol and Blue in Maine

At 10:06 PM 2/5/2008, you wrote:

I got the glucose back already..but I don't know..last Sept the number was
72..today the number is 66. Remember, my vet's purple tube got rejected.
The vet told me she tipped the centrifuge over to get the tubes out.


Just got hay analysis and bloodwork back

arabsporthorse
 

First of all, another thank you to this list! I believe it's possible
Sei would no longer be here if I hadn't found this site.

He is a different horse than the one I had 8 months ago.

Now, for more questions!
A couple of things that I noticed. I reviewed your case history.
Your insulin levels were VERY HIGH when you did the tests in June
Can you test again
anytime soon? That way, you can see how much headway you've made
with the weight loss and dietary changes.

His bloodwork has come back (done 1-15). His Insulin is at 22.7 (range
5-20 uIU/mL) and glucose 101 (range 60-125 mg/dL). The insulin is
still a little high- but a world of difference from what it was in
June (177!!). I calculated the ratio as this site suggests and got
4.45. Is this right? That means almost "compensated IR." The ratio in
June was 0.7! Do we work to get these horses back all the way into the
normal range? Or just get them as normal as we can(on paper)and
symptom free?

He is getting nearly NO sugar. Just what is in the hay and plain R/S/R
beet pulp w/ mag, salt and cinnamon.

I just got hay results back today from Equi-Analytical. This is enough
hay to get me to probably late April, early May.

I tried to post the results in the hay form, but got an internal
server error, so I'll post just a little here

Crude Protein 11.5%
Est. Lysine 0.40%
ADF 34.8%
NDF 67.6%
ESC (simple sugars) 3.8%
Starch 2.2%
Non-Fiber Carbs 5.6%

How does this look as far as the sugars go? I add ESC + starch to get
NSC, right? In that case NSC= 6% and NFC= 5.6%. Aren't we supposed to
be aiming for NFC <15% and NSC <10%?

I really appreciate everyone's help!

Thanks-
Lindsey

P.S.~I would really like for Dr. Kellon to do an analysis and balance
the diet for me- what e-mail address do I send it to? How much does
she charge and what type payment?


Cinderella's glucose

julie congleton <juliecongleton@...>
 

I got the glucose back already..but I don't know..last Sept the number was
72..today the number is 66. Remember, my vet's purple tube got rejected.
The vet told me she tipped the centrifuge over to get the tubes out....we
redid the purple today, but in the p.m. so I'm still trying to figure out if
my ACTH/in is going to be right or not...we spun it in the barn and removed
the serum together. I have that in my freezer now to go out in the a.m.
There is a comment on the glucose: the low glucose could be due to
delayed/incomplete separation from cells

Question: does anyone's vet do this correctly?

I realize now that my first set of blood work was done completely wrong.



Julie Congleton

Mom to Mason and Emma-Joy


Re: Hi, I'm new here...

higardener
 

Thanks so much for replying Mandy-

I did not receive the "start here" file (but appreciate the other info
I received). Please forward if possible.

Let me clarify... This gelding is not mine-
I ride and care for him when his owner travels which is often...
We are located in the Outer Banks of North Carolina.

We soak his hay (pasture-mate has allergies) and his turnout does not
have grazing. He can't chew too well so he gets hay stretcher to
compensate for the fiber. What do you know about hay stretcher?

Owner is willing to look at other feeds but due to the many types of
hay we buy, (bad drought in NC plus we're 70 miles from the mainland).
We both feel that hay testing would not really help us out.

We are planning to add flax oil asap (need dosage), cutting sugar and
carbs as we speak. I have seen cinnamon mentioned as a supplement for
IR in horses and also humans. Any info about cinnamon and dosage?

Appreciate the recommendations about the minerals-
will start that tomorrow :)

Thank you!
Step-mom for Cowboy and Buckshot


Re: Have unopened Pergolide for sale/Goodbye to Rocket

Larson <seahorses3@...>
 

Judy, truly, truly sorry for your loss. Your kindness to him was returned in his kindness to you.

Carol and Blue in Maine


Re: /Goodbye to Rocket

Susie Gordon, MD <whitneygt@...>
 

Dear Judy,

How wonderful that this magnificent horse was able to enjoy such a wonderful
life with you. I'm sure you must have been amazed that anyone could have
mistreated such a talented animal. I'm sure he literally ran for his life.
What a blessing you were to him and he to you. Like all of our members who
have lost their beloved horses/donkeys/minis on this list, you are a special
person.

Kind regards,
Susie Gordon
EC List Moderator


Have unopened Pergolide for sale/Goodbye to Rocket

Judy Houle
 

Hi all, due to the sudden unexpected death of my horse Rocket, I
have a 2 month supply of Pergolide in capsule form for sale that
arrived from Pet Health Pharmacy the day he died. I paid $37 for it
and will sell it for $30. I don't have access to a computer at
home, so the best way to contact me is by phone (530) 272-7937. I
have a Paypal account.

Rocket was in his 5th or 6th year of Cushings according to my vet,
and had been going downhill since October. His symptoms increased,
including excessive peeing, lack of ability to put on the weight
that he lost after a bout of colic and diahrrea from gorging on some
acorns, etc. One morning he was down in his stall and couldn't get
up, and was breathing heavily. He died before the vet arrived,
probably, according to the vet, from throwing a clot to either his
brain or his heart. He went quite fast and without much suffering.
He obviously had more wrong with him than he let on. Its amazing
how stoic they are.

He was a 23 yr. old Arab ex-endurance horse with over 1800 miles and
only 3 pulls, with 8 or 9 different riders. He finished the famous
Tevis Cup twice. He was given to me 2 1/2 years ago by someone who
didn't realize he had Cushings. I was glad I was able to give him a
stable home for the last years of his life, since he, being an abuse
case, was tossed from owner to owner for much of his life. I was
probably one of the few people he ever bonded with, and it took me
awhile to gain his trust. Thanks Eleanor and everybody for all the
info and support. I learned more from this horse than any other
I've ever owned.

Judy


Re: pics

brearebreazybridie
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "goodnewfgril" <ralf.jansen@...>
wrote:
would prefer a decent Equine vet that will get the diagnosis right.
Not neccessarily.... Just one who is willing to follow instructuions
listed for the blood draw protocal, a vet tech can do the same thing
however, you will need a vet to prescribe the Pergolide.

By the way... I showed her excessive dandruff, what can I give her
to make that less uncomfortable? flax oil?

Good shampoo job, if possible and correct diet, diagnosis. Need to deal
with the diagnosis and meds and diet and the skin should sort it's self
out, you may have to always clip maybe not that is dependent on the
horse, however the skin will improve when you have this fellow sorted
out with DDT's.
Angela
jarrhabrearebreazebridie


Insulin/Glucose Panel

shabbonawoman
 

I realize everyone's been quite busy which has been the reason for a
little delay regarding my question on blood draws and the case
history update. I had one of those lucky moments today with an
unplanned conversation with a new vet. To sum it up I asked if she
felt that IR and Cushings were different or the same and brought up
my Insulin/Glucose test confusion. She was a graduate of University
of MO and said they made sure to drum all this into her head. She
picked the lab that follows the correct parameters. She draws the
blood and takes it right back to the office where her staff have
specific instructions on how to handle the tubes for Insulin Panel
and/or ACTH. I explained to this vet what was tested in each vial,
grey and red, as I posted it here and she just said "huh?"

I mentioned that Luke doesn't fit the profile and test done 3-years
ago was for a baseline. She remarked that it's not that unusual and
what she recommends is to get both the Insulin Panel and ACTH to
check for early Cushings when the owner feels something is not quite
right and you don't see the signs.

This certainly clears up confusion caused when I first posted the
case history on Luke. The clinic I have been using, uses the Insulin
test as their basis for diagnosing Cushings. IR, Cushings are one in
the same. Their thought is that in some Cushing horses, they see a
insulin rise in the winter. Now that I've dug into this from behind
the scenes, I'm using the wrong outfit!

I did get the fax today and
T3 35 range 40-80 ng/dl

WBC 5.9 range 6.1 –11.8 x10?
RBC 5.9 range 8.5-11.8 x10?
Hgb 10.4 range 11.0-16 g/dl
Hct 30.1 range 32-46%

One of my original questions was regarding the correlation of anemia
and iron overload. Now that I look at this, it seems he may have
something else going on. Which brings me back to one of my original
questions. The way this bloodwork was handled for these tests, what
part if any, is any good? Seeing that the Insulin/Glucose will have
to be redone by the other vet, should I do the ACTH at this time of
the year or should I just wait until summer and get both?

Thanks for your patience in my confusion,

Cheryl
Looks like a vet will get a call in the morning questioning the Hgb
and Hct.


Re: Tests on Bertha in SC

Larson <seahorses3@...>
 

Ann, so good to hear about Bertha - and we ARE interested! Great about the feet - laminitis in a draft (just ask me) is even worse to deal with than with "normal" sized horses. The coat change is interesting - keep us posted on that and the lab results.

And P.S. Get used to replacing all sorts of equipment - fences are just the start. Thank Heaven for the wonderful nature of drafts, or they'd drive you nuts.

Carol and Blue in Maine

At 04:51 PM 2/5/2008, you wrote:

Hello all, just an update on Bertha the Percheron rescue in South Carolina.

Anyway, I though I would update you if anyone was interested. I will let
you know what the vet says when the results come back.

Anne Clarkson
US, Army
Disabled Vet


Re: HAY

Joan and Dazzle
 

Hi Angie,,

Yes. You are understanding. You have no clue what's she's been
eating, if she's iron overloaded, or what. But you want to be able
to head in the right direction with her. Right?

If she is very iron overloaded, she'll need to have balanced
minerals to YOUR hay. You can't undo what's already been done to
her, but if you can help her out on the move-forward basis, she'll
do better.

I would put her on a low sugar/starch/fat diet (like the Emergency
diet) until you can have the vet out to do the tests. The tests that
you will want is the ACTH, insulin and glucose. The ACTH will test
for Cushings. The insulin and glucose will test for insulin
resistance.

When you get the insulin and glucose back, that will tell you if you
have to be worried about feeding things like sweet feed. If she's
insulin resistant, you won't want to feed sweet feed. If she's not,
then she can have it.

A mineral block in the field won't really help her a whole lot. They
are a whole lot of hype, and not much good. Usually they have iron
in them - which most adult horses don't need, and not enough else to
make a big difference. If she's copper deficient or iron overloaded,
she won't get balanced minerals from a mineral block.

Rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp is good for her. It's also low in
sugar. You will want to be sure to get the kind without molasses.
Rinse it till it's clear, soak, then give it a final rinse. It's
more calorie dense than hay and safe to feed.

If she's insulin resistant, fat will make it worse. You will want to
give her ground flax seed instead. That's high in the Omega 3s and
is good for her. Many horses think it's yummy.

You're in the right place and she's so lucky to have you.

Joan and Dazzle

--- In EquineCushings@..., "goodnewfgril"
<ralf.jansen@...> wrote:

Can you test your hay? That will give you a good idea of which
direction you need to go if it is mineral related.
********************
oK.... I've been reading (my eyes and head hurt)...lol...


Re: pics

goodnewfgril <ralf.jansen@...>
 

I'm not an "expert," but I've seen my share of Cushings horses,
and she looks pretty classic Cushings to me. Are you going to have an
ACTH test done?
*************************
Not yet.. I went to my vet to book an appointment last week and they no
longer have an Equine Licence... which I was astounded by, as, there is
a stable on every corner in our area! They said that most facilities
use strictly Equine Vets, and gave me a 'card' of one about 1/2hour
away from me (that's a reasonable distance from us). I stopped by a
stable just down the road today to ask who they use, but nobody was
findable... music in the barn rafters, but I couldn't find a soul. I
would prefer a decent Equine vet that will get the diagnosis right.



Might want to body-clip her and start over with that coat. At least
she would be more comfortable that way.
**********************
I don't know about the weather in NY at present.. but I live in
Ontario, and She'll be needing that coat a wee bit longer..lol.
It's not uncomfortable in this cold weather is it?

By the way... I showed her excessive dandruff, what can I give her to
make that less uncomfortable? flax oil?

Angie J

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