Date   

Good News to help cheer us on

Pam Vaught <pvaught@...>
 

Kazee actually bucked and = kicked up over her back and ran as fast as the
wind yesterday - I cried. And to think last week I was thinking (because my
older gelding was very ill) that maybe I should just send them both home to
the Lord. It was cold, my hands hurt while picking her hay - and then
Saturday a blessing. They are both in fine shape and I see myself being
able to ride Kazee again. I just had to share. It is this group that keeps
me going - Thanks to all and happy good news.



Pam and Kazee

Missouri

_._,___


Re: Hay Results

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Kathleen Gustafson"
<katmando@...> wrote:

The goal here is to get your
hay analyzed through one of the labs we recommend, figure out what
you need in the way of minerals and supplement only those.
Duh. That would be your hay analysis in the original post? Sorry - not
enough coffee!

KFG


Dr. Kellon Emails

mannequin2d <nobst@...>
 

Hi Dr. K: I've sent several emails to you regarding the mineral
balancing etc. over the past few days but haven't received your reply.
Can you please check if you've received them and if not I'll try again.
Thanks again, Wendy.


Re: where to start please help

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "mmcdowell38" <mmcdowell38@...>
wrote:

how do I start into the club. I have a very complex case of cushings,
ir, hypothyroidism. There are more complications to boot and he is a
cribber...... Do I just post my blood work results here? Is there
anyone out there that has these conditions and a horse that cribbs?
My renter's horse is a TERRIBLE cribber. This is a horse out on pasture
too. We've tried everything, read everything and nothing has made a
difference. He's IR, probably headed towards Cushing's and a recovered
laminitic. He's been on the program for two years, is in excellent
health, fit, sound, full of energy but he cribs and always will. He
cribs a lot less than he used to, I should be happy for that.

How do you start? You should be getting a message from an official
greeter soon and you should have also received a bunch of material when
you joined. Read, read and read some more. Tell us more about your
horse and ask questions. We have some very complex cases here. You've
come to the right place.

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)


where to start please help

mmcdowell38 <mmcdowell38@...>
 

how do I start into the club. I have a very complex case of cushings,
ir, hypothyroidism. There are more complications to boot and he is a
cribber...... Do I just post my blood work results here? Is there
anyone out there that has these conditions and a horse that cribbs?


Re: Hay Results

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "silkie12002" <silkie@...>
wrote:

Will do. Is the flax in meal form or????? Red Cell is gone
You can buy ground, stabilized flax (not meal and not linseed meal)
from Horsetech or Omega Fields. Alternatively, you can grind your own
from whole flax seed in a coffee grinder. You need to grind it daily
as the fatty acids are unstable once the seed is ground. Need to feed
2-4 oz per day. The already ground and stabilized products come with
a scoop.

Yes--from photos sent to my vet in the St. Louis area--a great
vet. He's the one who had me put him on Pergolide. We are 180 miles
from him.

While it's certainly possible that he's Cushing's, and he is in his
teen's so it is possible, my experience has been that most of these
guys get diagnosed as Cushing's when they're really IR. To clarify, I
mean those horses with crests, overweight, fatty sheaths, etc., not
the classic long coat, muscle wasting, pot-belly. Go to the photos
and look under "Joe" for before and after photos. He's my 16.2 MFT
who had IR. Is this what you're describing?

At some point, you will want to get some blood tests to clear this
up. You can get an ACTH test to diagnose Cushing's although someone
else will need to advise you about getting the diagnostic test when
he's on Pergolide. I don't think the Pergolide will hurt him, but it
could be an unnecessary expense. Right now, the best thing to do is
continue with the Pergolide since he's on it and control his IR with
diet and exercise.

The vet here in our area, that took the blood, just said the
results were normal. I can call him again or have him take the blood
again if he doesn't have the info you say he should have.

Please do! We need glucose and insulin results. If he doesn't have
that, at your next blood draw, make sure the blood is drawn 2-4 hours
after he (the horse!) finishes a "hay only" meal.

Yes--Please. I would be most grateful. This is a lovely horse--a
World Grand Champion Model (that's halter ) in the Fox Trotter World--
as sweet as he is big and I want to do all I can for him.

For now, follow the "emergency diet" that you got when you joined.
1.5% - 2.0% of his body weight in grass hay, flax, vitamin E, iodized
salt and magnesium oxide (get this at the feed store). All of the
details are in the emergency diet but don't hesitate to ask for help.
If your winter pasture is like ours, a frozen wasteland with dead
grass sloughing off in the mud and no sign of green grass, it's OK,
otherwise it will be working against you.

Do you have a hay corer? Do you know any dairy farmers? Your county
extension agent should have one. Do you have a lot of hay left over
to make it worth getting a hay analysis? The goal here is to get your
hay analyzed through one of the labs we recommend, figure out what
you need in the way of minerals and supplement only those.

I have a soft spot for those tall MFT geldings! Let me know what else
we can do to help!

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)


Re: Alfatec Select Cubes, Was: Quiessence for Cushings?

tammy.canning
 

Sounds like I was being fed a line by someone else then as my concern
was getting something with low alfalfa. Lorna, if you are in
Ontario, can I ask why you've chosen to use the Alfatec cubes and not
the Ontario Dehy cubes? Everything I've read on here leads to the
Ontario Dehy cubes being a much superior product for Cushings horses
over the Alfatec Select Cubes.


--- In EquineCushings@..., "briarskingstonnet"
<briars@...> wrote:

Actually, that is incorrect. From speaking with the company, the
total alfalfa is around 2%...at least, that is what I was told.
Interesting.
I was given the 10% figure on Feb 29th, by Guy .It's necessary as a
binder,according to him.

Guy Blanchette
Administration Manager
Legal Alfalfa Products Ltd.
Ph: 780-961-3958 ext 224
Fax: 780-961-3399


Lorna
Kingston,Ontario


Re: Lab tests results

 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "whitehorsebullet"
<whitehorsebullet@...> wrote:

I am so confused. I had glucose insulin tests done on both my guys.
Bullet, who shows no signs of IR, but is Cushings (but normal numbers
since he is on pergolide) had a ratio of 2.45! glucose 94 mg/dl and
insulin of 38.28. They wereon tested hay for 12 hours before the
test. My other horse Sonny's ratio was 5.72, and he does have the
typical symptons of IR. His glucose was 101 and insulin was 17.63.
Does this sound right? Cornell did the blood work.
I agree with Dr. Kellon, that the most likely scenario is switching the
two samples since the results fit the clinical picture but opposite
horses! Frustrating, though because there's that lingering doubt.

I'm looking over your spreadsheet as I type this so if you want to make
some changes, write me off-line. The bottom line is - how are they
doing? Are Sonny's symptoms improving? Was this the first G:I test or
do you have others to compare to?

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)


Re: Alfatec Select Cubes, Was: Quiessence for Cushings?

5 Pine Ranch
 

----- Original Message -----
From: briarskingstonnet


<snipped> Actually, that is incorrect. From speaking with the company, the
>total alfalfa is around 2%...at least, that is what I was told. <snipped>

Lorna Wrote: Interesting. I was given the 10% figure on Feb 29th, by Guy .It's necessary as a binder,according to him.

========

I was also given the 10% alfalfa figure this past week from Camilla.

And on the same batch, Angela was told NO alfalfa last November.

Amberlee




.


Re: Thryroid Numbers too

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "whitehorsebullet"
<whitehorsebullet@...> wrote:

I haven't heard from anybody yet on any ideas why Bullets and Sonny's
numbers are so bad
When numbers don't fit the clinical picture, always have to wonder if
specimens were accidentally switched/mislabeled somewhere along the
line. That said, cold weather can really cause some haywire numbers.
Just keep your diet and meds tight, be vigilant.

Your thyroid results are fine. The free T4 is more significant than the
total, and T3s are OK. Bullet's highish T3 is consistent with cold
stress in other species.

Eleanor


Re: Potassium and Sodium - moved over from ECHoof

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I would really like to "balance" my horses
iodine, sodim, and potassium intake. In reading previous postings the
potassium can decrease the horses "appetite" for sodium. My horses
hay
is very high in potassium, Dr. K says 4 times the normal amount.
It's not that your hay has 4X normal amount, it's about 4X more than
requirement - but that's pretty common. Not sure where you read that
potassium decreases salt appetite (?). You might be thinking of high
potassium intake increasing the need to excrete potassium in the urine,
which would mean sodium is conserved, helping keep blood levels normal.

Salt appetite is controlled by the brain. The brain "reads" blood
levels of sodium and salt hunger is triggered if they drop below
normal. Only problem with this system is that the body will borrow salt
from the tissues to keep blood levels up so the brain can be fooled
into thinking all is well with total body sodium levels until
dehydration gets severe and protein levels start to rise in the blood
as the blood gets more "concentrated" from insufficient water levels
(sodium holds the water in tissues and blood).

As far as we know, there are no interactions in terms of absorption for
sodium and potassium. All diets with adequate forage/hay intake are
higher in potassium than they need to be but it is easily excreted in
the urine. Conversely, almost all hays have insufficient sodium. Your
Bermuda (?coastal) has adequate sodium, but you should be adding about
an ounce a day of plain salt when feeding the other hay.

Iodine can be supplemented separately from a supplement with a known
iodine level, like Source or Uckele's Ocean K.

Eleanor


Re: Alfatec Select Cubes, Was: Quiessence for Cushings?

briarskingstonnet <briars@...>
 

Actually, that is incorrect. From speaking with the company, the
total alfalfa is around 2%...at least, that is what I was told.
Interesting.
I was given the 10% figure on Feb 29th, by Guy .It's necessary as a
binder,according to him.

Guy Blanchette
Administration Manager
Legal Alfalfa Products Ltd.
Ph: 780-961-3958 ext 224
Fax: 780-961-3399


Lorna
Kingston,Ontario


Re: ODTB cubes, Was: Quiessence for Cushings?

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Sandy,
Apparantly, you can give either//both. Last year I had this discussion with Aneda/Cal and Dr. Kellon said to both of us the iodized salt was ok with the cubes. So to play it safe, I give half iodized salt and half plain salt! I don't know the amount of iodine in the cubes...maybe its not very much and depending on where you live, you can give more iodine safely.
Mandy


Re: Tell me about IR testing...

Mandy Woods
 

Megan,
Tell us how your horse was diagnosed. Send us the results, the units and the lab normal ranges. The test we recommend to dx IR is very simple. Start with your horse in a drylot or stall so he cant get any grass or grain. Then feed him low nsc hay or soaked grass hay. Schedule your vet to PULL blood 2-3 hours after he eats his hay. Morning, evening, doesnt matter. We want to see the values from an insulin and a glucose draw. So easy! There are several ways to compute the numbers to diagnosis IR> just because the values fall in the 'normal' range, does not mean the horse is not Insulin Resistant. This is cutting edge technology and many vets are not up on it.
Please try it and get Cowboy in a safe place now so he doesn't become laminitic. Spring, warm rains, sweet tender green grass shoots are coming........
Avoid founder at all cost.
Mandy and Asher in VA


Re: Dropping feed from the mouth

Mandy Woods
 

Why don't you try a feed bag that they wear?
Mandy and Asher in VA


Tell me about IR testing...

valisa_valerosa
 

With spring around the corner, I feel as though I need to make a change
with my possible IR horse.
I have been toying with the idea of moving him to a more suited barn
where he would be off grass...
Its a long long story, but it will be a very difficult move, but it may
be neccessary.
Before I make a decision, I would like to get Cowboy tested for IR.

How many tests are available? Which are most accurate? How are they
administered.
Cowboy is on MagOx will that affect the results?
Will the time year... time of day affect the results?
Anything else I should know about testing?
Thanks
Meghan


Re: Hay Results

silkie12002 <silkie@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Kathleen Gustafson" <katmando@...> wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., "silkie12002" <silkie@>
wrote:

Hay being fed to my 16.2 hand MFT gelding. Diagnosed with Cushings.
He gets about 6 #'s 3 times (soaked 1/2 hour) a day. Plus a
orobiotic , biotin, 1mg. pergolide, w his 3 cups Buckeye Safe & Easy
and 2 cups rice bran pellets in the morning, 3 cups Safe & Easy + 2
cups rice bran at noon, and 3 cups Safe & Easy w 2 cups rice bran at
night. On occasion he gets Red Cell (not too fond of that). He still
has fat deposits & a cresty neck. He is starting a spring shed and
his feet are in good condition but he tends to get a mild case of
thrush at times. He is on winter pasture.

******Stop the Red Cell ASAP as the iron will aggravate IR and you
don't need more iron in the diet. Also switch the rice bran for flax
to decrease the pro-inflammatory omega 6 fatty acids found in RB to
anti-inflammatory omega-3 fatty acids found in flax. Both the red
cell (iron) and RB are pro-inflammatory and that's the last thing you
need.
Will do. Is the flax in meal form or????? Red Cell is gone

He's been tested for IR and it's negative--but never for Cushings as
the test at this point in time is cost prohibitive. My vet diagnosed
him from pictures. We have a mustang trimmer for a farrier.

******I'm confused? He sounds IR with the crest, fat pads, etc., but
you're giving him Pergolide, the medication for Cushing's because he
was diagnosed with Cushing's but never tested. Was it based on the
crest, fat pads, etc.,
Yes--from photos sent to my vet in the St. Louis area--a great vet. He's the one who had me put
him on Pergolide. We are 180 miles from him.

and does he have a long, shaggy coat, slow to shed?
Nothing unusual--he's had a heavy coat all his life and he is starting to shed now like the other
horses we have.

What were the results of the IR test - the actual numbers? Vets
often say the results are "negative" because glucose and insulin
numbers can be in the normal range and that's as far as they look.
The lab at MSU calculates an I:G ratio which is almost
always "normal" but you need to calculate the G:I ratio to make the
dx of IR.
The vet here in our area, that took the blood, just said the results were normal. I can call him
again or have him take the blood again if he doesn't have the info you say he should have.

Do I need any adjustments in his feeding Program?

******Yes. Do you need help balancing this Hay? > Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)
Yes--Please. I would be most grateful. This is a lovely horse--a World Grand Champion Model
(that's halter ) in the Fox Trotter World--as sweet as he is big and I want to do all I can for him.

Anita-- Silkie@...



Re: Hay Results

silkie12002 <silkie@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Kathleen Gustafson" <katmando@...> wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., "silkie12002" <silkie@>
wrote:

Hay being fed to my 16.2 hand MFT gelding. Diagnosed with Cushings.
He gets about 6 #'s 3 times (soaked 1/2 hour) a day. Plus a
orobiotic , biotin, 1mg. pergolide, w his 3 cups Buckeye Safe & Easy
and 2 cups rice bran pellets in the morning, 3 cups Safe & Easy + 2
cups rice bran at noon, and 3 cups Safe & Easy w 2 cups rice bran at
night. On occasion he gets Red Cell (not too fond of that). He still
has fat deposits & a cresty neck. He is starting a spring shed and
his feet are in good condition but he tends to get a mild case of
thrush at times. He is on winter pasture.

******Stop the Red Cell ASAP as the iron will aggravate IR and you
don't need more iron in the diet. Also switch the rice bran for flax
to decrease the pro-inflammatory omega 6 fatty acids found in RB to
anti-inflammatory omega-3 fatty acids found in flax. Both the red
cell (iron) and RB are pro-inflammatory and that's the last thing you
need.

He's been tested for IR and it's negative--but never for Cushings as
the test at this point in time is cost prohibitive. My vet diagnosed
him from pictures. We have a mustang trimmer for a farrier.

******I'm confused? He sounds IR with the crest, fat pads, etc., but
you're giving him Pergolide, the medication for Cushing's because he
was diagnosed with Cushing's but never tested. Was it based on the
crest, fat pads, etc., and does he have a long, shaggy coat, slow to
shed? What were the results of the IR test - the actual numbers? Vets
often say the results are "negative" because glucose and insulin
numbers can be in the normal range and that's as far as they look.
The lab at MSU calculates an I:G ratio which is almost
always "normal" but you need to calculate the G:I ratio to make the
dx of IR.

Do I need any adjustments in his feeding Program?
******Yes. Do you need help balancing this Hay?

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)


Re: Alfatec Select Cubes, Was: Quiessence for Cushings?

tammy.canning
 

Actually, that is incorrect. From speaking with the company, the total
alfalfa is around 2%...at least, that is what I was told. The half ton
totes are $195 each.


--- In EquineCushings@..., "briarskingstonnet" <briars@...>
wrote:

> http://www.alfatec.ca/
They are made with alfalfa,
They are 10% alfalfa,10% beet pulp and 80% timothy.
I get them here for $13.00 a bag.

Lorna
Kingston


Re: APF... questions

Lisa M. Koch <lmkoch77@...>
 

Hi Ellen:

APF is one of the Best Products I've ever used to help my
Cushing/Insulin Resistant mare. My mare is currently having a relapse
of founder again and is on high doses of the APF Pro to help with her
insulin and the stress pain is causing her. It also helps with the
side effects of Pergolide. I have my mare on Pergolide and Evitex
also and usually give her the APF at night and the Evitex
(Chasteberries) in the morning. Her mood is so much better when she
is on the APF. She is in much less discomfort when she is on this
product and I find getting her back to normal is a much quicker
process when I use this product. There are three different formulas
you can choose from.

Lisa M. Koch & Samantha
L.I., NY

Triton's abscess has come through (whew) and he is walking O.K. Can I
please get an opinion on APF? I saw it in one of the folders last night

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