Date   

Quiessence for Cushings?

tammy.canning
 

I am brand new to the board and brand new to Cushings. My late teens
Welsh Pony was tested and confirmed with Cushings late in the summer
of 2007. He's had the classic cresty neck for many years. He
normally gets a very fuzzy coat for winter but has always shed out
nicely come spring. Last summer, he had what I would consider
a "fall" coat with some miniscule length to the hair, more than he
normally would on an average summer day.

He has exceptional feet, always been on an alfalfa/timothy mix hay
(maybe 30% alfalfa) and out on a short, maintained grass pasture
during the year and we've never had any problems, until this winter.

I did not start him on the Pergolide in the fall, mostly because I
was in denial I think, and was planning on starting him on it this
spring. This winter, he seemed to have aged a thousand years, grew a
pot belly, despite constant dieting, we just can't seem to get the
weight off, shaggy coat, and on and on.

He was on the same hay as always and then ended up foundering here
about 10 days ago. X-rays confirm rotation, which is likely old and
present before we owned him, according to the vet as there has been
absolutely NO sign of foundering since owning him. Vet thinks the
current hay, which did have one batch of more alfalfa in it, caused a
flare up but no new rotation. I know, hard to know without previous
x-rays.

So, x-rays are not the end of the world, but enough so that he will
likely be getting heart bar shoes this morning. For the last two
weeks, once we realized he may possibly be foundering, we switched
him to a grass/shredded beetpulp cube designed for Cushings and
Insulin Resistant horses. No more hay. Apparently, the cubes have
2% alfalfa in them (not enough to really register) and 9.25%
protein. I also started him on the Pergolide, as I should have last
fall :( This pony was already retired but doing some light riding.
Vet says riding days are now over so he will really not be getting a
ton of exercise from now on.

Will be picking him up today and speaking to the vet further on what
happens next. I assume he will not be able to go out in the pasture
anymore? Even if the grass has been well maintained and there is
really nothing there? We do have a good pen he can live in, if that
is the case, with no grass.

So, long story short, I read a little article on Quiessence and that
it may help with Cushings. I can currently get it through mail at
$35 a bag and $11 shipping on the first bag and $3 shipping on each
additional bag. Was told one bag would last approximately one month
but, I'm assuming less with a small pony. Just wanted to find out if
it "truly" makes a difference for horses with Cushings?


Re: Easy Keepers

Sandra Su
 

At 1:59 PM +0000 2/29/08, Carlynne Allbee wrote:
Request to all of you......so many of you are making remarks like "can't find" or "hay shortage" etc that I personally would love to know where this is happening because we aren't having one.
Here in the Finger Lakes area of NY State, there's a hay shortage right now, since it's winter, and if you didn't buy enough hay when the farmers had it, it's hard to buy now. At the barn where I board Penny, the owner bought a hay loft full in late spring, and then she shopped around for the best hay at the cheapest price. Now she is worried about running out before more is available, and I have a friend who is running out and doesn't know where she can buy more. She asked me, and I could only suggest the guy my barn owner bought hay from, if any is still available. This same friend told me that the barn where I used to board is using round bales because that's all the barn owner could get. She never did this in all the years I boarded there.
Is this a hay shortage? At least a seasonal one.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...


Re: Need help: IR mare rubbing, rubbing, rubbing

Sandra Su
 

At 1:59 PM +0000 2/29/08, Paul wrote:
Be careful with use around cats... Pyrethrin (natural) and Permethrin (synthetic) are both fairly toxic in cats and in higher amounts, dogs.
That's odd, since I use UltraShield, and that has permethrin & pyrethrins in it, and they say on the bottle you can use it on dogs. Also, having never heard this, I've sprayed my horse with it in a barn where there are cats (not sprayed the cats, of course) and no harm has ever come to them.
Of course, this isn't a constant spraying, just a spritzing before I ride on a summer day, or maybe after I groom and turn Penny out again when the flies are really bad.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...


Re: Koko and my hay test

kathrynandsofie
 

Hey Karen,



At least you took the time and energy to have the hay retested!



What we need to do in Oregon is find a dealer that will carry Sterrets,
I am buying a pallet at a time (because it is the only way I can get
it). Crystal has absolutely blossomed on Sterrets (once I got her to eat
it). She will choose the Sterrets over the local grass hay. I just had a
friend call asking for help with her older gelding; I'm selling Sterrets
to her! Guess I'm going into the feed biz (yikes!)



Kathryn Sullivan

Tipperary Farm

503 260-1844

www.tipperaryfarmwest.com



From: EquineCushings@...
[mailto:EquineCushings@...] On Behalf Of Karen
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 9:56 AM
To: EquineCushings@...
Subject: [EquineCushings] Koko and my hay test



I wanted to pass on something that I just found out.
Kathryn suggested that I test my hay again. I did and it tested way
higher NSC then the original test I got last July. It tested 12.8 NSC
(ESC + starch) that is correct, right.
I am just sick about this. I have been feeding this hay to Chantilly,
Tommi and Koko since last July. I asked the rancher to test hay all
over the field, but apparently he did not.
So now I'm thinking that Tilly and Koko have had tender feet all this
time,because I was thinking this hay was 7.5%. I feel sick about
this. I will never trust anyone else to test for me again. This guy
lives quit a ways from me, but I will drive there next summer and walk
his field for hay samples. All 1000 acres.
This could also be one of the reasons I have had so much trouble
getting weight off of Tommi.
I thought you might be interested in this. So now the soaking begins.

Karen,
Chantilly, Tommi and Koko


Re: Curious - does starving a horse set them up for metabolic issues lat

Sandra Su
 

At 1:59 PM +0000 2/29/08, Carlynne Allbee wrote:
When I got her, I put her into boarding situations and every ranch I ever had her at described her as a hard keeper, that they had to give her twice what they gave any of the other horses, etc.

Guess she was the exception to what you guys are talking about.

Not really. Penny was like that, except she was really, really thin when I bought her, not just a little ribby. It took a long time for her to gain too much weight, and then it was later in life, what I thought was the middle-age spread.
Before that, she tended to be on the thin side, and the only thing that'd put some weight on was when she was at pasture in summer. Lots of grass seemed to fill her out a little. This was the case till maybe 10 or 11 years old, when she started holding her weight over winter. I was at a different barn, where they fed as much hay as a horse would eat, and I figured that was why. And in summer, she was on grass -- acres of it -- 24/7.
Even then, she did OK as long as I was sure to ride at least a few times a week. It was only in her teens that I think the problem developed.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...


Re: ACTH testing

 


I just called my vets office to set up the testing for my pony and they
want to do 2 draws 19hrs apart. Is this normal?

Dannice
That sounds like a dexamethasone suppression test which we avoid because of the
possibility of precipitating or exacerbating laminitis. Even though this risk may be small,
it's one most of us choose not to take.
The preferred test is endogenous ACTH - a single draw that requires some special
handling (spinning, freezing, overnight shipping). I feel some vets are reluctant to do the
single draw ACTH as they are unfamiliar/uncomfortable with the special handling needed.
- this test is as diagnostic as the dex test
- it's your horse and your money

See the New Member Primer (in Folder #1) and the "Blood Testing" folder in the files at http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/files

Patti K
Vail AZ


Re: Breakthourgh in Insulin Resistance Research

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Jenn02674" <jenn2674@...> wrote:

How would a feeding (a normal grain feeding, not exactly low NSC but
not
sweetfeed) about 30 minutes to an hour before pulling blood, affect
the
insulin and glucose testing?
Yes, it will. You can't use those results.

Eleanor


Re: ACTH testing

Mandy Woods
 

NO. Its a simple one time blood pull into a chilled lavender top test tube.
You want an Endogenous ACTH.
http://diaglab.vet.cornell.edu/ ACTH/Insulin $35.
Mandy
*********************************

I just called my vets office to set up the testing for my pony and they
want to do 2 draws 19hrs apart. Is this normal?


Re: microlactin

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Karen" <kshanna92@...> wrote:

Could someone please help me with the recommended dosage of
microlactin
for a 1,000 lb. horse in tablespoons/teaspoons?
By volume of loose powder, use 4 to 5 times the recommended human dose,
which is 8 to 10 tsp, once or twice a day. Many horses are fine on once
a day, others need twice a day.

Just remember that this particular supplement only works for acute
inflammation.

Eleanor


Re: vit E for drafts

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "laviniamfiscaletti" <dnlf@...>
wrote:
Should a draft cross who weighs 1400-1450 lbs receive more?

Yes.

Eleanor


ACTH testing

idlerranch1996 <idlerranch2@...>
 

I just called my vets office to set up the testing for my pony and they
want to do 2 draws 19hrs apart. Is this normal?

Dannice


Re: testing, vet insisted upon fasting..or not feeding him ealy AM prior to test(hay still in stall)

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., n rand <nantomluna@...> wrote:

Tom has his ACTH, insulin & glucose tested this morning prior to
feeding. I told the vet hay was OK but he insisted that feeding him
anything COULD skew the results. > Will these tests be worthless?

Nan,

They could be either falsely positive or negative, depending on when
and what the horse ate last.

From here:

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/full/83/10/2357

under techniques for testing:

"To approximate a ***non-fasting*** grazing state, the stalled horses
had access to orchardgrass hay and water ad libitum throughout the
study. The nonstructural carbohydrate content of the hay was similar
(P = 0.88) to that of the pasture. Hay consumption was of short
duration and not expected to cause perturbations in plasma glucose or
insulin (Stull and Rodiek, 1987; Pagan et al., 1999), while helping
to avoid increases in insulin resistance possibly contributed by
fasting or increased stress levels (Forehead and Dobson, 1997)"

All studies on insulin resistance use non-fasted, hay fed only
conditions. In a normal horse, if there is uninterrupted pasture or
hay access, there will be no fluctuations of insulin or glucose
outside normal values.

Horses are creatures of habit. Many studies have found even what we
would consider to be a nonstressful change in routine has
consequences in terms of cortisol levels. Cortisol is potent insulin
blocker. Just stalling a horse that is not used to be stalled causes
a cortisol rise. Missing a meal likely does too. Intervals of 12
hours or less without feeding result in a large feeding related
insulin spike at the next meal, related to insulin resistance
triggered by fasting - the horse's stress response to "Hey, I'm
starving here - where did the food go!"

The reverse can also occur - a horse testing normal when fasted. If
there was enough food in the stomach at the time of food withdrawl to
still be working it's way through the small intestine or maybe
triggering some "critical level" of fermentation products in the
colon, you could catch the horse in an interval where the IR response
hasn't been kicked in but the low level absorption of glucose from
pasture or hay has stopped so you're not really getting a true
picture of the horse's steady state because the glucose "challenge"
isn't there. We've had horses test positive when allowed nothing but
their low NSC hay, but test negative when fasted.

Eleanor


Re: Daily requirement of iodine - salt

5 Pine Ranch
 

Karen Wrote: If I decided to give Lugols Iodine can I cut back on the amount of salt. For a 350 mini how much iodine? Also Tommi has been put on 1/2 tsp thyro-L twice a day. Would this affect the amount of iodine she would get.
=================

Sodium should still be given so by cutting back iodized salt, make sure that actual sodium is still adequate. Thyro-L is like an iodine supplement. If you are meeting minimum iodine requirements with iodized salt plus using Thyro-L, I'd not add anymore iodine.

Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
Please Visit Our Site!


Re: Daily requirement of iodine - salt

Karen <karen@...>
 

If I decided to give Lugols Iodine can I cut back on the amount of
salt. For a 350 mini how much iodine?
Also Tommi has been put on 1/2 tsp thyro-L twice a day. Would this
affect the amount of iodine she would get.

Karen, Chantilly Tommi and Koko--- In

Yes~ my notes say Lugol's Iodine. "One metric drop = 6.5mgs of
iodine/average horse gets 4-6 mgs/day."
Mandy


Re: testing, vet insisted upon fasting..or not feeding him ealy AM prior to test(hay still in stall)

5 Pine Ranch
 

Hi Nan, when a horse's insulin is very high, we've sometimes been able to interpret a fasting result. It's too bad your vet is confused with the measurement of insulin in humans. Post the results and we'll see if we can figure it out but it's not a comparable representation to results after eating. As a baseline it may only be useful if you continue to follow fasting results. Sorry.

Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
Please Visit Our Site!


testing, vet insisted upon fasting..or not feeding him ealy AM prior to test(hay still in stall)

n rand <nantomluna@...>
 

Tom has his ACTH, insulin & glucose tested this morning prior to feeding. I told the vet hay was OK but he insisted that feeding him anything COULD skew the results. I know the info in files says DO NOT fast/

Will these tests be worthless?

Nan
Thomas
IL


---------------------------------
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Molasses free Beet Pulp availability

conniegraham <conniegraham@...>
 

Just a heads up.
BP w/out molasses is really NOT available in SW Ontario at this
point. I noticed in the BP FILE on Beet Pulp sources - Ontario Dehy
is updated Feb. 26/08 as now having BP w/out molasses - I was on the
phone with them yesterday and they do NOT. They do not expect any to
be available until at least Oct. 08. I've called around to a number
of their, and unrelated distributors - and gotten the same response.
If anyone hears differently - I'd love to know.

On my long drive to pick up balanced cubes instead - I dropped in on
my favorite friendly horse rescue farm. On mentioning the plight of
BP shortage - my friend led me through deep snow, over hill and yon to
an old van left in a snow bank. Stored in the back were 4 bags of
shredded, non-molasses Beet Pulp! Her horses wouldn't eat it, so she
offered them up.
Go figure.


Re: Daily requirement of iodine

Mandy Woods
 

Yes~ my notes say Lugol's Iodine. "One metric drop = 6.5mgs of iodine/average horse gets 4-6 mgs/day."
Mandy


Re: Daily requirement of iodine

Joan and Dazzle
 

Yes. I've added kelp to Dazzle's diet to provide the extra iodine. THe
amount that I added was based on what was not available in my hay, nor
in the iodized salt that I feed her. - So I wouldn't be able to know
the dosage that you'd need.

Joan and Dazzle

--- In EquineCushings@..., "saddlefitter"
<saddlefitter@...> wrote:

Its 2.5 mgs/day/500#/iodine.
Mandy
Does anyone use anything other than salt to provide this?

Thanks!


Re: Easy Keepers

Joan and Dazzle
 

Hi Carlynne,

It's funny that you should say that. I'm in Anaheim, CA, looking for
low s/s orchard hay. It appears that we don't have a hay shortage.

But as I'm testing the hay and inquiring of the sources, I'm finding
things that are quite surprising this year compared to last year.
Last year, a lot of the hay available in our feed stores was from
the Imperial Valley - almost local hay. Most of the orchard tested
low in s/s - around 7.

This year, many of the feed stores in our area are carrying hay from
Nevada, Utah, No. Cal, Oregon, even Washington. The mineral profiles
are very different from last year's. The s/s is between 9-11%. I've
tested about 8 different hays already, hoping to find a 7% again -
which seemed so common last year.

Last year, in our area, you could almost substitute one orchard for
another and Dazzle's mineral supplements didn't change. It was a
classical case of "regional" hay. This year, the differences are
dramatic and it's clear that it's not the same hay. Our local hay
stores and the stores in Norco buy their hay from hay brokers. It
seems that there wasn't as much hay produced in the Imperial Valley
this past year.

I would love to get my hands on some 7% orchard. If you know where I
can, just let me know. I'll drive out this weekend.

Joan and Dazzle


--- In EquineCushings@..., Carlynne Allbee
<samwisebaggins@...> wrote:
Request to all of you......so many of you are making remarks
like "can't find" or "hay shortage" etc that I personally would love
to know where this is happening because we aren't having one. So,
how about, when you sign your name, also at least put your state.
If nothing else, it might attract the attention of another list
member that is near you and you can compare notes.

Carlynne Allbee
So. Calif.

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