Anyone want about 1/2 of a bucket of Phyto-Quench by Uckele? It has
been suggested by the Horse Journal as a circulation boosting/pain
reliever for horses with laminitis. I saw some effects with my horse,
Sunny, but he has stopped eating it, as perhaps he is up there with
Sandy Su and Cindy's most picky eaters!
I would like to give it to someone who is watching pennies, as I know
how that gets.
You pay postage for me to send, I send and your horse the rest of this
here bucket! (I'm in Oregon.)

Lori

wwww.skodeshorsetreats.com
&
www.naturalhorsejourney.typepad.com

Hi all,

Well, hopefully second notice is the charm -- I've got our current listing
page displaying properly now: _www.sportshorses.com/list.htm_
(http://www.sportshorses.com/list.htm) as before. I THINK that everyone's existing
histories shown there will click thru properly to the last version you'd entered
before the old server(s) died. It should also work using the same url to your
individual page that you had before for those of you who've bookmarked yours
and/or added them to your signature line (and any of you who haven't added them
to your automatic signature file, please do so if you can! <G>).

Still troubleshooting the data form for new histories, and the same for
updates -- so those are NOT working yet. Please DO NOT enter data into the form
and submit, because it will just give a server error and isn't accepting
data. I'll post again once I've got that problem figured out and fixed.

Robin
(list founder and owner)



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Carb Guard is guaranteed to be 11% or lower but is higher fat (8% I think) so can put weight on easily
The files here have a folder called "NSC of Feeds I have on File as of ...2006" or something like that ..I believe Safe Choice tested at 22% NSC..so no it isn't a safe choice for compromised horses..now for healthy ones ..it is safer than most sweet feeds I guess..
Does your mare need the recommended amount of TC Low Starch ( 5 lbs or so I think) to keep her weight or are you just using a handful to get her to eat minerals? If its just a handful and she is tolerating it you are probably ok..but if she needs a greater volume of feed to maintain weight you might try the Carb Guard.
Low Starch and Carb Guard are more for the horses who need more feed to maintain weight..so you can feed a greater volume with less starch (TC) or feed less feed because its higher fat AND Low Starch (Blue Seal)

Cheryl,
The Temporary Emergency Diet is soaked grass hay until you get your hay analyzed, 1000iu's of vitamin E per 500#, magnesium oxide 1.5 grams/500#, 2 oz iodized loose table salt. Take away all grass, red salt blocks, treats, fruits etc. Let horse settle into a drylot. Feed 2% body weight a day ie: 1000# horse gets 20 pounds of soaked hay a day (but weigh it dry) 3-4 meals a day. You can use plain shredded beet pulp as your carrier but you have to rinse/soak/rinse it.

Please cruise the files. They are packed with knowledge/information that will help you. The Diet is in the first file called "Start Here".
Mandy and Asher in VA

I too am at my wits end over my Mares health. When I first
subscribed to this group I got the e-mail concerning the emergency
diet but my husband deleted it. I was wondring if you could send me
a copy of it.

Thanks,
Cheryl


--- In EquineCushings@..., 5 Pine Ranch
<fivepineranch@...> wrote:

Hi blackeyedarabian,

Could I ask a favour, please turn your CAPS off - makes it hard to

read the message.

You have a horse that has laminitis ongoing for one year.

When you joined the list, you were emailed details of an emergency

diet. Get started, take charge and control of what your mare is
eating immediately! When we discuss washing hay, we actually want
you to soak it for 1 hour in cold water (lots of water) or 1/2 hour
in hot water, drain the water from the hay and feed it wet. This
reduces the sugar content in the hay. Weigh the hay dry (using a hay
net and fish scale) and let us know how much she's getting. STOP all
grain, feed only hay. She should be getting 2% of her body weight
until we get this sorted out. So if she weighs 900 lbs, she should
be getting 18 pounds of hay before soaking. The Emergency Diet lists
details of supplements we want you to add. Magnesium, Vitamin E,
Salt. That's it for now - we'll deal with the rest shortly.

Has your vet helped you with a diagnosis? Cushings? Insulin

Resistance? What has caused the laminitis?

How old is your mare? What breed is she? Is she overweight?

Underweight? Thick, cresty neck or unusual fat pads anywhere? Can
you post pictures of her feet? Did I read that she's in boots? Have
you had any x-rays done? If so, can you get copies of those onto the
internet for us too.

You do not need to detox her. Horses do an amazing job of detoxing

themselves.

You need to reduce the sugar, starch and fat additions in the

diet. She needs safe roughage ONLY. If she's Cushing's, she'll need
medication.

I can promise, you won't need to spend another $30,000 to fix this

horse - OUCH! I'm really hoping that was a typo.

Amberlee
www.fivepineranch.com
Please Visit Our Site!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In EquineCushings@..., sportponiescom@... wrote:

Greetings all! From all the frustrations voiced with getting horses

to eat

the custom minerals or medications to manage their IR or Cushings,

it seems

like the biggest challenge is getting it IN THEM! ....... Anyway,

I'm not looking for anything other than someone on the list to

say " Hey, I'm interested " and I'll share with all members what

might be a

true magic potion. Yvonne

Okay, Yvonne...........you share your magic potion with the list and
I'll share mine.
I have been struggling with 2 picky eaters for almost 3 years now and
in the last year I finally found what works for US.
Claire from AZ

At 1:20 PM +0000 12/11/07, Cindy wrote:

> Do you get that from a feed store in Victor, NY?

No, I get it in Herkimer, NY. Where are you, Sandy? Sounds like you're closer to Rochester than I am. I'm a bit east of Syracuse.

I'm in Trumansburg, just a bit north of Ithaca. So, yes, I'm closer to Rochester than you are, but it's still pretty far to go for feed.
I just happened upon the info for the feed stores up that way that I thought I might have to go to:

Victor Feed, Victor, NY -- 585-924-3276
Thompson Grain, Inc., Manchester, NY -- 585-289-4015

I think what I was looking for was Equi-Pro Carb-Safe from Poulin Grain. If anyone wants to explore the possibility that these stores have it, phone first. I never did go to them to confirm it.

> Penny

still isn't up to the full amounts of the stuff Dr. K recommended
when she got my hay analysis and told me what to add. Even so, w/o
the supplements being perfect, Penny is doing well.

Yes, you and Penny might benefit from the custom from Uckele without the flax base, from the sound of it. But then you'd have to get her to eat the flax another way. (Unless Dr. Kellon okays something else for Penny.)

What I like about mixing my own is that I can add ingredients, subtract them, make them less or more. If I had something premixed, I wouldn't have the flexibility to do that. I'm hoping if I find an ingredient Penny thinks tastes bad, if I sneak it in little by little, maybe finally she'll accept it. Maybe she'll learn to like it. When I first got her, she wouldn't eat apples and carrots, but now she loves them, though she doesn't get them anymore. This makes me think that she can acquire a taste for some things, hopefully her supplements.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...

And, there's an interesting article in thehorse.com that talked about
laminitic pain originating in the neurons instead of in the hoof.

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=10880&nID=34

Boy, Dr. Kellon sure is up to speed. She was talking about this before
this was even published!

Joan and Dazzle

Hi,

I believe that Cruiser (19 yr old ASB/QH gelding) may have early
Cushings. My vet has doubted it all along, and was surprised to see
that his ACTH was 18.1 pmol/L [ref range 2.0 to 10.0] at the end of
July '07.

After those results, she recommended the dex test, but I didn't want
to go that route because he'd been mildly laminitic the year before
at the same time (early Sept). We agreed to try putting him on .5mg
of Pergolide. I started the Pergolide on August 28th. On November
13, he tested at 8.8 pmol/L, which is normal. (See below for all teh
ACTH test results in '07)

So, does it seem that the Pergolide is working, or does the horse
maybe not have Cushings after all? Does such a small dose do much for
a thousand pound horse? Is there any way to know?

I think I will try to wean him off of the Pergolide this spring,
though, and see what happens. When can I do that? I should test
again a month afterwards, right?

Thanks!

Kristine & Cruiser


ACTH levels this year: [ref range 2.0 to 10.0]

March 2007: 6.3 pmol/L
July 31, 2007: 18.1 pmol/L
August 28, 2007: Started .5 mg of pergolide from Vet Pet Pharmacy
November 13, 2007: 8.8 pmol/L

my horse is having some active laminitis. lab work recently done shows
thyroid level down t-4 0.58 normal 1.5-4.5.thyroid level in june was t-
4 1.56 he was on thyro-l in june per vet took him off in early august.
insulin is now 160 was 60 in june acth normal in nov could low thyroid
cause insulin to go up and then cause laminitis? my vet says he does
not need to go back on thyro-l cause acth is normal does this seem right
i dont know if i trust this vet. thankyou marybeth and buddyholly

According to my info from a company rep the NSC value was 29% last year. This is VERY high according to our wants. We strive for 10% or less


(KER) Kentucky Equine Research.
Digestible Energy (DE) - 3.0 Mcal/kg (1363 kcal/lb)
36% of calories from NSC
21% of calories from Fat
27% of calories from Fiber
16% of calories from Protein

Non-structural Carbohydrates (NSC)- 29%

This is a product they promote for metabolic horses. I have no tests or knowlegde of it however.
Melanie
ND




RE.LEVE Concentrate - Guaranteed Analysis

Digestible Energy (min) ..............................................................3.30 Mcal/kg

Protein (min) .........................................................................................12.5%

Fat (min) ...............................................................................................12.5%

Fiber (max) ............................................................................................18.0%

Starch (max) ..........................................................................................10.0%

Calcium (min) ..........................................................................................1.0%

Calcium (max) .........................................................................................1.5%

Phosphorus (min) ..................................................................................0.65%

Potassium (min) ....................................................................................0.90%

Copper (min) ....................................................................................90 mg/kg

Selenium (min) ..................................................................................1 mg/kg

Zinc (min) .......................................................................................260 mg/kg

Vitamin A (min) ..........................................................................22,900 IU/kg

Vitamin D (min) ............................................................................2,290 IU/kg

Vitamin E (min) ................................................................................900 IU/kg

.
Front Runner Cool Command feed
Posted by: "stormieqh" brheikki@... stormieqh
Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:33 pm (PST)
www.frontrunnerhorse.com It doesn't list the starch and sugar levels
for any of the products so I emailed and asked for them. Other then
that does it look like a good company?

"plea for Nutrena to contract with farmers for beet pulp pellet

production -- no molassas added. I honestly find it difficult to
believe that farmers cannot make money off of this product"

First the farmers dont grow or make the beetpulp.They grow the sugar beets ..which in turn they sell to companies ( many farmers are probably contracted by the companies) who extract the sugar and THAT is where our beetpulp comes from..the byproduct of sugar beets..another company buys that byproduct and then sells the shreds to the market (us) and also to feed companies like Nutrena who then make the BP pellets.It is NOT a straight from the farmer deal.
Right now many farmers are receiving government subsidies (sp) to plant fule crops ..so they are probably making a lot more profit off of that than growing hay or sugar beets .I am not sure exactly who uses all the sugar that comes from BP ( most of the sugar we use for things like baking is cane sugar) but if the Sugar beet companies cannot outbid the Gvmt contract..what ever uses that sugar will be either going out of business or going up in price also


Sheri- in the heart of York co PA Farm Land

Remember, for most horses, the beet pulp is recommended for the

emergency

diet, not long-term feeding.

Hi Beth,

That's not my impression.Are you sure?
The Emergency Diet tself is not looked upon as a long term diet.Just
good to use until hay can be tested.Is that what you meant?
But I didn't think the beet pulp was meant to be stopped after the hay
was tested,unless of course it was of no use in the diet.

Lorna

Although there may well be individuals who absorb the natural form
better, the research on vitamin E has been performed with the synthetic
and that's where the dosage recommendations originate.

Mr.Thewell weights 325lbs so is 1000IU the right dose for him?

750 to 1000 is fine.

Eleanor

--- In EquineCushings@..., prattchn@... wrote:

_The Horse: Cushing's, Parkinson's Link? Oklahoma State Researcher

Receives

That's what I've been talking about with the degeneration of the
dopaminergic neurons. Wrote to Dr. McFarlane a few years ago hoping
they would start looking at these brains for iron. Maybe now that will
happen!

Eleanor

--- In EquineCushings@..., "minesafety" <MineSafety@...>
wrote:

I've been hesitant

to add anything more to his diet until we get blood work done and new
cushings numbers -- but perhaps they are craving what they need.

Bark is a normal part of the diet of all wild herbivores, including
horses. There's a rather detailed (and long) study of wild horse bark
chewing here:

http://www.ecoman.une.edu.au/staff/kvernes/Ashton.pdf

The closest thing correlating with the preferred barks was starch
content, although they also pointed out that negative factors in
unchewed trees (e.g. volatile oils) might be responsible. Texture of
the bark was also important (preferred smooth), which might correspond
with its lignin content and fermentability.

All grazing animals have been found to prefer high sugar grasses, which
often means young growths which are also high protein. Horses also
crave fiber, especially if they have any gut upset.

We probably should be careful about calling this "craving", because
that easily slips over into saying they "know" what they need. Fact of
the matter is likely that individuals with tastes for food items that
were nutritious or helpful to them in some way were the most likely to
survive and pass those preferences to the next generation. If they
really knew what was good for them they wouldn't overeat grain or
consume poisonous plants. Food items high in simple carbohydrates are
more calorie dense than high fiber foods and it makes "sense" from a
survival standpoint to prefer those. Unlimited concentrated simple
carbohydrate, like grain, simply wasn't an option during the evolution
of the horse so there was no selection pressure for individuals that
knew when to stop. Even nuts and seeds have only about half the simple
carbohydrate level as grains, only 1/4 if they eat the husks/shells at
the same time.

One thing you often hear is that horses will eat bark or wood because
of a mineral deficiency but it wouldn't be a very good choice for that
since bark/wood has less than 1% mineral content while hay for example
is typically around 8% or higher.

Eleanor

Hello Everyone,

I want to go and buy some vitamin E but before I do I want to make sure
I am buying the right kind. I remember reading that only the natural
form is absorbed so, should I get the natural for for humans? It is
significantly more expensive so I wanted to check. What about getting
it in the form of wheat germ?

Mr.Thewell weights 325lbs so is 1000IU the right dose for him?

Nikita in MD

Have you considered switching to no-molasses beet pulp shreds, which ARE
readily available in Upstate NY?

Remember, for most horses, the beet pulp is recommended for the emergency
diet, not long-term feeding. A few exceptions to this would be owners
with no access to acceptable forage, horses unable to chew long-stem
hays, and in small amounts as a supplement "carrier." As a
highly-digestible fiber source, it makes a dandy safe feed for putting on
pounds.

Just heard from a friend in NW Ohio where beet pulp shreds are now mixed
with road salt there for winter driving conditions. Seems everyone wants
our beet pulp.
Beth

--- In EquineCushings@..., skogshast <skogshast@...>
wrote:

Interesting that he selects the aspen bark only<

Thanks for your swift reply, Eleanor. This is purely anecdotal, but

one

quite prominent Swedish trainer of trotters firmly maintains that

aspen bark

is beneficial for horses.

This book online from the National Academies Press actually has a
fair amount of information in it on the nutritive value of aspen.
Start on page 74:

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=41&page=74

Even after an hour of acid hydrolysis the simple carbohydrate level
is low. It does seem to ferment pretty well though. In a cattle
feedlot study, they actually gained more weight on aspen + alfalfa
than pure alfalfa! It also contains some chlorophyll and some
references say salicin - natural aspirin (like white willow).

Eleanor

Greetings all! From all the frustrations voiced with getting horses to eat
the custom minerals or medications to manage their IR or Cushings, it seems
like the biggest challenge is getting it IN THEM! So is it the smell or the
taste? Or the combination of both? I have a radical, but SAFE idea that might
help... my only desire is to help those of you that feel like you have tried "
everything " and still haven't been successful or stress free. I commend
each member for the commitment they make everyday trying to manage these
conditions. Anyway, I'm not looking for anything other than someone on the list to
say " Hey, I'm interested " and I'll share with all members what might be a
true magic potion. Yvonne



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