Date   

Ugh - what to do next...

Stacy
 

My 11 year old Arab has always exhibited IR tendencies with the fat
deposits etc. Didn't have a problem with laminitis/founder, but have
been waiting...hoping to avoid it. I posted a couple weeks ago that I
thought he had started to have problems from the acorns in his pasture.

He is living in my round pen so I can better control his diet, away
from the acrons. Dandy was lame in both front feet. I figured it was
laminitis. He gets about 16 lbs of Timothy hay (not the best quality)
each day (he is about 850 lbs); a pound of LMF Low Carb Stage 1 in the
morning and night to give him his supplements of 2 gm magnesium Oxide,
flax, and I put him on Laminae SAver. My vet advised bute, which I
gave him for a couple weeks (1 gram in the morning, 1 gram at night).

My vet came out this past Wed. I was unfortunately out of town on
biz. She did not take blood, nor did she take x-rays. After looking
at him and moving him around, she agreed it appeared that he was
laminitic - ie lame, strong digital pulse, overweight horse - but he
did not respond to the hoof testers, and appeared to be more sore over
his heals. He doesn't mind loading his toe/coffin bone area when he
truns sharpely. She pulled the shoes, she made some 'booties' out of
wraps and put a Numotizine pack on the bottom.

I am calling her tomorrow morning, and again asking her to take blood
for me and take x-rays so we know what is going on. Anyone have a
horse founder and not have them sore on the toe???

I am thinking about hauling him to either UC Davis or one of the vet
hospitals about an hour away. He is a grade 1 lame, his feet are not
hot, and he does run around the round pen. Would it be too painful to
transport him to the hospital? I am concerned the local vet is taking
the wrong route to diagnose/treat him.

Thoughts?

Thank you!!!!

Stacy (and Dandy in N. California)


Re: Gelding urinating on his belly

Stacy
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Becky" <twink90@...> wrote:

I had a pony years ago that was just like this.
Thanks Becky - my guy is likely the same as your pony was...

Stacy


Re: Gelding urinating on his belly

Stacy
 

Thanks Mandy - no beans. I have checked. He lets me clean him and
check/remove beans. He does get them, but that is not what is causing
him to do this. It is gross.

Stacy


--- In EquineCushings@..., "Mandy Woods"
<bittersweetfarm@...> wrote:

Stacy,
Have you checked him for a 'bean'? or large, hard build up of smegma
within
the sheath?? That can cause pain and make him slow down on urine
output and
dropping.
Mandy and Asher in VA


Re: Prevention

Mandy Woods
 

Hey Neighbor!
Well, sorta....I understand the boarding blues. What you CAN do to tighten up their diets is add one meal of Ontario Dehy Balanced Timothy cubes. This is a total meal, balanced and low ESC ...about 5% right now. Dr. Kellon formulated it. By adding one or two meals of these cubes will give you a little wiggle room if you get into a bale of hay that is just tooo high in sugar/starch that soaking won't help. Two other complete feeds in your area are Triple Crown Safe Starch Forage and Blue Seal Carb Guard. These have a small amount of fat in them too so you have to watch for a reaction to that but it sure beats soaking in the winter! and its guaranteed low ESC. I hope one of the hay gurus sees your diet as they are much more knowledgable here but I would say feed one or the other of flax or the BOSS. Also, kelp is questionable because each batch has a different amount of minerals/iodine. Why not use iodized table salt right in their feed and you'll know they're getting so much iodine as well as salt? That is recommended in the Temporary Emergency Diet here.
Molassed beet pulp can be used if you rinse/soak/rinse the heck out of it - till the water runs clear. You can use it safely then. The molasses is sprayed on the outside.
Some symptoms of IR and getting too much sugar in the diet are excessive drinking/ urination and puffy areas above the eyes. You can also see color rings in the hoof walls, digital pulses, heat.
Does the AccelLifetime supplement have iron or manganese in it?
There is so much to read and learn here. Its mind bogeling!
What part of MD are you in?
Mandy and Asher in VA


Individual Case Histories and Forage Samples are ACCESSIBLE ONLINE again.

Eclectk1@...
 

Hello Everyone!

A bit of good news along with some bad. Please be sure you read this entire
message.

The old servers that our case history and forage sample system, files,
programs etc. were on finally gave out. It wasn't unexpected, but I'd hoped they
would have lasted longer. That's why the case histories and forage samples
and so on weren't accessible for the past week or so.

The good news is that I've got us changed over to new servers/host, and that
all of your links are the same as before. Right now, everyone's case
histories and forage samples along with the listing pages are back available
online. Please check to be sure that yours is there. Email me privately if you
don't find yours so I can get it uploaded properly.

The bad news is that I've still got some bugs to work out before the system
will work properly for adding new case histories or updating existing ones
however -- right now all you'll get is an "internal server error" page so please
do not try adding new histories or forage samples, and hold off on updating
any of your case histories. I'll post again as soon as I've got the
programs for those working again.

My best to all of you and yours!

Robin
(list founder and owner)



**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)


Re: Animal case histories

Mandy Woods
 

Yup. Thats the problem....the 2007 histories are not up at the moment because the system is down. Sit tight and it'll return eventually.
Mandy


Re: need help for posting blood test results

Sandra Su
 

At 1:33 AM +0000 12/10/07, horsecorrect wrote:
My vet recommended Platinum Performance which I now see is not a particularly well-favored product here. ... I see that a product called Arizona Regional Mix is good so perhaps I need to find out how to order that for the next time?
The best thing to do is test your hay and balance supplements to what the hay's lacking. No packaged supplement can match your hay exactly. Also, supplementing just what the horse needs in the amount he needs it is not only healthier but probably cheaper.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...


Re: Prevention

Sandra Su
 

At 1:33 AM +0000 12/10/07, Nikita wrote:
As far as I know my ponies do not suffer from IR or Cushing. But being that there are ponies (one 9 H Shetland and one 14.1 H Paso/QH) I want to have them on the best feeding regimen possible to hopefully prevent it. ... where do I start if I want to design the best diet for my guys?

Nikita,
My advice would be to get your hay tested and balance supplements to the hay. Is it low in sugar + starch? If not, if it's really high, you might want to soak it. You might also limit their time eating grass in the pasture. You probably don't have to be as stringent as some of the others here, since your horses aren't Cushing's or IR, but cutting out any grain you feed, testing your hay, and balancing supplements to what the hay's lacking is probably a good preventative measure.
Also, I find that exercise really makes a difference, so you might want to be sure your horses get exercise. Are they ridden or driven? If they're just pasture ornaments, maybe it's time to put them to work.
--

Sandy Su
ssu@...


Re: Prevention

n.eike
 

Thank you so much Mandy. I am still boarding and since the barn buys
hay by the small loads, my tactic has been: soaksoaksoak! and I am
adding a general vitamin supplement (Accel Lifetime). When they work
hard (drive) they get a maintenance amount of Platform Feed for Minis
and Pony, some ground flax seed and BOSS, Kelp and sea salt. We will
be moving in the new year and hopefully I will be able to find enough
hay that it is worthwhile to have it analysed. But in the mean time,
do I seem to be going wrong somewhere? What should I watch for with
their current diet?

I would like to substitute some of the hay with BP but I cannot find
the no-molasses in my area, if I rinse off the regular BP will I be
able to get rid of enough of the sugar?

Nikita, Mr.Thelwell and Loki in MD


Re: need help for posting blood test results

Mandy Woods
 

Hey,
The Case History file is down at the moment so I cant find your cases and send you their links. When you get your bloodwork back you can see if that file is open and post it there or here. Please send us the value, units and lab normals. The link to the histories is http://www.sportshorses.com/caseform.htm
Platinum Performance may not compliment your hay. If one of your horses is IR it may not be suitable for him because of the molasses and glucosamine as well as not balance your hay. The best thing to do is get a hay analysis and go from there. IF that is not possible, checking some of the premixed formulas may be your best option. There are others besides the AZ Mix which is made by www.horsetech.com I'm sure you'll need to speak to the hay gurus to get you started.
Mandy and Asher in VA


Re: Prevention

Mandy Woods
 

Hi Nikita,
Welcome to the group! Good for you for being proactive. Your ponies will benefit from this. I would suggest you start with the major portion of their diets...hay. Have your hay analyzed and have the minerals balanced to that. You can still let them have some graze especially if they are in work. The Start Up file is a good one to get you started. I believe the Case History file is still closed so wait until that reopens. In the meantime, you can go visit www.dairyone.com and read up on hay analysis, types of hay, esc/nsc/nfc! and check out the file on abbreviations. We know everyone starting out is on information overload but it will click for you and you'll see how logical and simple the system is.
Ask all the questions you like. There are lots of folks here that will help you.
Mandy and Asher in VA


Animal case histories

horsecorrect <horsecorrect@...>
 

I've found the case histories but the page does not show current
histories. I posted during 2007. The list is showing from 1999 to Oct
2006. How do I get to the current histories? If someone has time to
guide me, I would appreciate it.


need help for posting blood test results

horsecorrect <horsecorrect@...>
 

Thank heavens I'm able to post again. The message kept saying my
address was bouncing and it has taken quite a while to remedy that.
Meanwhile, I tried my regular email address and was literally inundated
with emails.

Anyway, in April, I posted information about my two horses. The blood
test results for each of them should be back this week and I'd like to
complete their profiles but I can't seem to find the instructions to do
that. If someone would remind me of the way to access the information
that I posted earlier about my horses, I would appreciate it.

My vet recommended Platinum Performance which I now see is not a
particularly well-favored product here. Upon closer examination, I see
that it has molasses in it and also glucosamine sulfate. Is there
enough of each of these in the product to cause problems? I expect one
horse to have Cushings and one to be IR although I have been wrong
before. I see that a product called Arizona Regional Mix is good so
perhaps I need to find out how to order that for the next time? The
company that makes that is in this information somewhere, I think.

Thanks to all who submit information and encouragement. I have learned
a great deal from this site and those who contribute.


Prevention

n.eike
 

Hello,

I have been lurking and find the posting and files fascinating. I may
not be looking at the right place but I have not been able to find the
information I am looking for. This is my first post and I want to
apologize in advance if I am asking the wrong questions or if it is
redondant.

As far as I know my ponies do not suffer from IR or Cushing. But being
that there are ponies (one 9 H Shetland and one 14.1 H Paso/QH) I want
to have them on the best feeding regimen possible to hopefully prevent
it. There is so much data that I am suffering from information
overload and my question is: where do I start if I want to design the
best diet for my guys? I have tried to upload their profile but I
cannot open the link.

Kind Regards,

Nikita


Re: eating shavings??

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "jeanz95" <brucezajac@...> wrote:

Do you know of any medical reason she might be doing this or do you
think it is more behavioral??
Thanks Jean and Lady
Impossible to say for sure. When there's any gut upset whatsoever,
their instinct is to go for fiber. Can't get much more fibrous than
wood! Then again, the combination of less exercise and taking the hay
away is almost a sure recipe for this.

There aren't too many variables you have much control over here. Adding
the soaked hay back is probably the best option, and try to have them
give it to her in the daytime hours when she's between soaked cube
meals or at least at the same time time as her first cube meal. If you
can put it in a net with tight webbing or other type of feeder to slow
consumption that would help too.

A trick to slow consumption of the soaked cubes is to put a few rocks
in the feeder. Using a narrow deep feeder with one of those rims at the
top designed to reduce feed tossing/wasting also helps. Using as much
water as the BP and cubes will hold (without turning to sloop she can
siphon up quickly) will increase gut fill.

If it's still excessive and you're worried about it, she could be
muzzled between meals but that's definitely a least attractive option.

I do know many horses that eat their shavings and have big bellies as a
result, but not colic. That's not to say this couldn't ever cause
colic, just that it's not inevitable. With her history of a recent
colic, I'd probably be a little more concerned about it but I'm not at
all sure that's reasonable. The better drinking is definitely
reassuring.

Winter sucks......

Eleanor


Re: eating shavings??

Jean
 

Do you know of any medical reason she might be doing this or do you
think it is more behavioral??
Thanks Jean and Lady

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Eleanor Kellon, VMD"
<drkellon@...> wrote:

--- In EquineCushings@..., "jeanz95" <brucezajac@> wrote:

Please help. My horse is eating the shavings in her stall!! Does
anyone have any idea why she would be doing this?
Was her diet changed before she started this? Less exercise or turn
out?

Eleanor


Re: eating shavings??

Jean
 

Yes, less excersice due to weather. For the last week she has been in
at night due to cold. Out all day. Since she coliced we removed 2
flakes of soaked hay and increased her cubes. Wanted to tighted her
diet. We had also previously started her on 1.5 lbs of Carb guard
going into winter. Dropped that also. Just TB cubes and BP. Also we
are wetting her cubes (previously discussed last week). Her water
intake seems to be close to normal again (The increase of salt to 4TB
per day seemed to jump started her) We have backed that to 2 TB per
day. She was chewing wood, but now she is literally eating shavings.

Do you think wetting the cubes has anything to do with it? Horses are
natural grazers and she eats so quickly, bc her food is so soft. I'm
at a boarding barn, so it is hard to convince others who are in fear
that the dry cubes are what caused colic in the first place.
sorry this is confusing, this is getting frustrating.

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Eleanor Kellon, VMD"
<drkellon@...> wrote:

Was her diet changed before she started this? Less exercise or turn
out?

Eleanor


Re: eating shavings??

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "jeanz95" <brucezajac@...> wrote:

Please help. My horse is eating the shavings in her stall!! Does
anyone have any idea why she would be doing this?
Was her diet changed before she started this? Less exercise or turn out?

Eleanor


Re: Ginseng Dosage again/Eleanor?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "briarskingstonnet" <briars@...>
wrote:

Sorry,I have searched through posts/files and am successfully missing
the dosage info for Panax.
10 to 20 grams seems to do it.

Eleanor


Re: NSC

Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...>
 

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Katy Watts"
<kathrynwatts@...> wrote:

even that CHO fermentation
starts in the stomach. It's being presented in conferences, but I'm
not sure if it's published yet.
Yes, that's been known for quite a while. Not sure when the first
paper might be but there's one from 2000 talking about stomach VFA
levels on differing diets.


Fructose easily converted to glucose
by horses.
That's not quite right. Fructose can't be directly converted to
glucose. Fructose has 3 potential metabolic fates. It can be
converted to pyruvate and burned as a fuel in the liver, or converted
to fat, or converted to fructose-1-6-bisphosphate which the liver can
use for gluconeogenesis. Oral fructose produces slightly more of a
glucose and insulin rise (how much depends on the study and study
conditions) than in humans but the main study that claimed "efficient
conversion to glucose" also left the door open for horses possibly
absorbing more, which does seem to be case (Equine Veterinary
Journal, September 2004).

Eleanor

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