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Re: Equus extra Vol 39 contains many recommendations that conflict with ECIR. What's to be done?

Nancy C
 

On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 02:31 PM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
The truth will out as they say. Nancy has a list of all the "firsts" to come out of this group, like recognition of seasonal patterns. We can now add another one to that since the EEG has recently mentioned cold weather may affect insulin.
I wish I could heart this.

Remind me to put cold weather influence on the web site

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room


Re: Flea on Invokana

Jennifer Murphy
 

Dr. Kellon, that's so true.  I hadn't thought of that.

Nancy, I believe Flea has been spitting out the tablets without my realizing.  I was hand feeding the pills at first and since he was eating them, I just started mixing the pill in with his mash, whole, and going about my chores.  On the one month blood draw we noticed he was visibly sore, and it became worse over the next few days.  I've been hand feeding the pills for the past five days and today he seems a little more comfortable.  We'll know for sure if the next insulin results come back with lower numbers.  Live and learn!

--
Jennifer in NH
2020

CH - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Flea

Photo album - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=251041&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0


Re: Lavinia mark ups please with laminar wedge advice 2nd try

Gilly Edwards
 

I had great success attaching a thick sponge to the hoof with elasticon.  If Glo doesn’t like it you can easily remove it.
--
Gilly 
VA
2020


Re: Upsetting Info on Equi-Analytical 601 & 603 tests

 

To Laura and others who are upset:
My response to Ferne's information is to be as proactive as I can. Ferne's hay test is in her Hay Analysis folder: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ferne%20and%20Jack%20-%20Magic%20-%20Velvet/Hay%20Analysis/FernesHay603-601.pdf 
I will only concern myself with the 603 analysis that was received by EA on 1/27/21 and analyzed by 1/30/21. If I had a hay sample that EA analyzed around that time frame, I'd get on the phone with EA to determine if my sample is still there and ask for confirmation of the ESC results.

With perfect hindsight, this 603 analysis had possible red flags. The most obvious is based on my modest experience with analyses of grass hay in Northern California over 10 years: 3% is ultra-low ESC, so low I've never before seen it. In roughly 30 analyses in the past 10 years, I haven't had a single sample of unsoaked grass hay with ESC below 5%, much less at 3%. The lowest ESC I received was 5.2% and it was analyzed the week before Ferne's. In an abundance of caution, I'm going to call EA to ask if the sample was retained and can be retested. 

There may be other red flags based on the look and feel of the hay, which I don't have. Of the roughly 30 samples over 10 years, only two had ESC above 10%. IME, this hay was unusual for our area. You can read in the 2017 No Laminitis Conference Proceedings about some other West Coast hays that were reviewed by Dr Gustafson in the article "Informed Dietary Decision Making -- The Benefit of Forage Analysis." https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2017.php

The most proactive approach of all is to enroll in Dr Kellon's NRCPlus class. You will learn about hay sampling and hay analysis. An analysis will not look like a maze of numbers. You'll learn the details of how to take a good sample of a load of hay, how many bales to core, and how to submit the sample. Knowledge is powerful and much more satisfying than worrying.
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: interpreting blood test results - ECIR Calculator

Hilary McGregor
 

Thank you very much for the replies Sherry and Dr. Kellon. I really appreciate that I have somewhere to take these questions and concerns!

It's very helpful to know the thresholds for insulin and acute laminitis. Reassuring that Amika is not nearing that threshold at the moment.

It was above zero Celcius when we drew blood on February 21, 2021, I think it was around 7 C / 44 F.

I have now posted the recent blood results for Amika in my case history folder as well as an updated case history document

Curious, what might have caused her insulin to be mistaken in the first blood test. We have suspected IR but that was our first blood test. One thing that changed since then is exercise. She was pleasure ridden through the summer 2020, but was not ridden since mid-September due to subtle lameness (more info in case history). She has been on paddock rest this winter and it is snowy and icy. They don't move around that much in the winter compared to summer I suspect.

I apologize, I jumped the gun and asked about our gelding's blood test results before I knew that I had Amika's results too. He is Amika's full brother and my partner owns him, but his info isn't on this site. We tested both horses in October '20 and Feb '21. Both horses have markedly worse levels now, but it's a relief to learn that they are well within the insulin threshold for acute laminitis. 

Many thanks,
Hilary
--
Hilary and Amika
Prince George, BC, Canada
Joined July 2019
Amika's Case History Folder
Amika's Photos Folder


Re: Equus extra Vol 39 contains many recommendations that conflict with ECIR. What's to be done?

Frances C.
 

I too, received this Equus Extra online email. It is an advertisement for Insulinwise. Please people  look at who is publishing the information and take it with several grains of salt. The golden rule is to always "follow the money"
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Re: Flea on Invokana

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Re: Purina Equitub with Clarify

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Penny,

The only thing I've ever personally tried that had actual results for multiple horses was garlic which I had purchased through Springtime Inc.  I do know other people who said it didn't work for them but for the 4 horses that I had on it (the entire barn at that time) there was a noticeable difference while they were eating it to after it ran out.  Obviously have you have to have a horse that actually will eat garlic for it to work.  I've also used Bug Check which has garlic as an ingredient but didn't notice enough of an effect to keep trying it.




Re: Equus extra Vol 39 contains many recommendations that conflict with ECIR. What's to be done?

Sherry Morse
 

Janet,


If so:
1 - Read https://www.ecirhorse.org/insulin-dysregulation.php on the use of the term insulin dysegulation
2 - Read the recommendations at https://sites.tufts.edu/equineendogroup/files/2020/09/200592_EMS_Recommendations_Bro-FINAL.pdf.  Frankly, I'm surprised she's suggesting a fasting blood test when even Dr. Frank's group says to do the test non-fasting now. So that information isn't just contradictory to our recommendations, but to the recommendations of the other expert quoted in the article.
3 - Hay soaking.  This has been addressed numerous times but there have been studies done on what soaks out over what period of time.  Some samples:
4 - Fructans - http://www.thelaminitissite.org/do-fructans-cause-laminitis.html, there might be newer research but I believe the results are the same - if you put a nastrogastric tube into a horse and administer OF at a rate 5 - 7.5g/kg you can induce laminitis. 

The easiest way to spread the word would be to contact the author and ask if she's heard of any of these counterpoints. 



Re: Equus extra Vol 39 contains many recommendations that conflict with ECIR. What's to be done?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Janet,

It's frustrating - and it's everywhere! All we can do is keep on plugging, nudge where we can. If you would like to send a letter to the editor on fructan you could link this https://wp.me/p2WBdh-Va . Be sure to mention that fructan is not a sugar, not digested like a sugar and does not cause an insulin rise.  The only study that claimed to show an insulin increase from fructan (actually inulin) swapped out the test animals tested low sugar/starch hay for untested flash dried ryegrass as a carrier for the inulin. If you want to add more links - https://wp.me/p2WBdh-gn , https://wp.me/p2WBdh-Kf .

The truth will out as they say. Nancy has a list of all the "firsts" to come out of this group, like recognition of seasonal patterns. We can now add another one to that since the EEG has recently mentioned cold weather may affect insulin.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: use of uckele cbd pellets

Penny Duthie
 

Is the uckele or the neurgan  preferred and why if one is preferred over the other.
--
Penny Duthie
Grant, Florida
Joined January 2020


Re: Equus extra Vol 39 contains many recommendations that conflict with ECIR. What's to be done?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Janet,

What issue is this (year and month) and who is "Johnson"?  Taking things out of context is always questionable but anything that still says fructan is the most dangerous sugar is very questionable.



Re: Purina Equitub with Clarify

Penny Duthie
 


-- are there any fly control feed through that are recommended for non metabolic horses?
Penny Duthie
Grant, Florida
Joined January 2020


Re: Purina Equitub with Clarify

Penny Duthie
 


--
Penny Duthie
Grant, Florida
Joined January 2020


Re: interpreting blood test results - ECIR Calculator

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Hi Hilary,

You provided two different sets of current results (?). Regardless, it's important to realize that cold weather can make insulin results very erratic. If she's doing well clinically I would just put off any more testing until it has warmed up. Both insulins are well below the threshold for acute laminitis, which is estimated between 80 and 100 uIU/mL.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: interpreting blood test results - ECIR Calculator

Sherry Morse
 

Hi again,

I should have prefaced everything I sent earlier today (to anybody) with "I have a headache, interpret at your own risk".  However, yes - I only did the calculation for the October bloods as that was the one with the different measurements.  However, I still think that insulin result is suspect because it's so low.  I know that's not helpful because it makes her current readings look worse but things to keep in mind -

  • Temps below 50F can effect insulin levels.
  • While the Cornell range is 10 - 40 and we like to see horses at the lower end of the range, personally I'd be happy with a reading of 21 at this time of year. (My gelding usually tested at 45 in December)
  • As per https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-diagnosis.php the normal upper level for glucose is around 100
So there's still a risk of laminitis but how much of a risk is hard to say.  If the insulin from October was compromised and it was actually higher these numbers might be an improvement over that.

When you have a chance could you please add both sets of results to her case history and also update it for any feed changes?  That might help us pinpoint where things could still be tightened up in terms of diet.



Equus extra Vol 39 contains many recommendations that conflict with ECIR. What's to be done?

Janet Oppio
 

I cant load or send the article in question but there are several statements that conflict with ECIR recommendations

 They want to test proactively but “We still recommend testing the animal’s insulin resistance using a blood test after fasting, but we add to that the oral sugar test so we have to look at two sides of this---the oral response to food with the standardized sugar test, and a test for insulin sensitivity,” Johnson says.  

. “If hay has a lot of sugar, you can soak it in water to remove much of the sugar,” says Johnson. Depending on the type of hay, he adds, several hours of soaking may be required to satisfactorily reduce the sugar content.

Although lush spring pasture is most commonly associated with laminitis, research shows that grass can contain high levels of fructan, the most dangerous sugar, at any time of year.

etc. Its hard to spread the word when there is conflicting information being disseminated constantly. Any suggestions?


--
Janet 
East Bay Northern CA
Joined 2019


Re: Urine testing and grazing muzzle

Patti SoCal 2020
 

Thanks for the suggestions. I ordered the Munch n Done
--
Patti
SoCal 2020                                                 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Patti%20and%20Sunny


Re: Lavinia mark ups please with laminar wedge advice 2nd try

Jeanne Q
 

Thanks Sherry for the advice.  I will try and get someone else here to help with taking pics.
--
Jeanne Q MN 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jeanne%20&%20Glory
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=241360


Re: Upsetting Info on Equi-Analytical 601 & 603 tests

Laura and Ero
 

It's extremely upsetting to hear about Equi-Analytical. As a newbie to all of the details on EMS, I've been anxious to learn more about feed and trim and movement and I feel I've been very committed to working with the right folks to get and try to keep my young horse on track. Results so far have been very disappointing. He actually seems to have gotten worse and we've stopped riding completely ... starting over? But I've chalked that up to it takes a lot of time. So I'm trying to be patient and stay the course.  

I spend a lot of money with E-A and to hear that their results can be this inaccurate is troubling. I've been committed to balancing his feed to these hay numbers. Given how often my hay changes, coupled with likely inaccurate or such big ranges of data ... this gives me pause as to whether hay testing is worth time/money. 

Since October, my horses' feet look a lot better (although he moves much worse out of shoes), he hasn't seemed to drop much weight despite less hay (and soaked), he's often very crabby and hungry, and his black mane/forelock are still dry and rusty looking at the ends.  

If the hay data can't be trusted, my take-away on this is to keep my horse on an emergency-like diet (always soak hay - which frankly has been the advice I've been given despite my hay always being less than 10%), and find a basic balanced feed that can accommodate a large range of hay. I'm still working to find boots to support his journey through change, but find it baffling that boots don't work unless the trim is already ideal. 

I'm sure many are frustrated like I am, but my case wasn't horrible to start with. He was moving, he was happy. Now he seems so very unhappy. And in trying to do all the right things, I just seemed to have made his life worse. 

--
Laura and Ero

October 2020 | Colgate, WI USA 

Ero Case History

Ero Photo Album

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