Date   

Re: Relevante trim guidelines

Lynn
 

I feel like I'm the one who hit the jackpot - he has taught me sooo much and I've had the opportunity to be a part of this amazing group and receive an education that is priceless!
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: Candy Update: Invokana on board Questions and Concerns re. symptoms and diet

 
Edited

Hi, Nancy.
We evaluate nitrate in forage using Dry Matter values. EA quantifies nitrates in two ways:
1- PPM Nitrate-Nitrogen, which means parts per million of nitrate as nitrogen
2- % Nitrate [ion]
Other references (including posts I've made) also use a third way to quantify nitrate: 
3- PPM Nitrate [ion]

To convert PPM Nitrate-Nitrogen to % Nitrate, multiply PPM Nitrate-Nitrogen by 0.000443.
To convert % Nitrate to PPM Nitrate ion, just move the decimal place 4 spaces to the right (multiply by 10,000).
So if PPM Nitrate-Nitrogen is 226, then % Nitrate ion is 0.1 and PPM Nitrate ion is 1001.

I'm happy to say that the nitrate guidance in Files doesn't require any math conversion from EA reports: both PPM Nitrate-Nitrogen and % Nitrate Ion are listed.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/1.%20Hay%20Information/Nitrate%20Guidelines%202012.pdf

An easy rule of thumb is that if % Nitrate is 0.25 or less, the hay is probably safe for most equines. I personally use % Nitrate of 0.1% or less (PPM nitrate ion of 1000 or less) as ideal, based on Dr Kellon's informed opinion and the inherent variation of nitrate within any load of hay. We wish there were detailed research on equines to confirm these levels of safe nitrates, but to the best of my knowledge, there isn't. We do know that high nitrates can cause laminitis, and, at a very high level, death. 

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Relevante trim guidelines

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

He sure hit the jackpot with you, Lynn, and all that time and hard work has paid off!

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Purina Equitub with Clarify

Sherry Morse
 

I would avoid this product because it contains alfalfa as well as rice bran and the fat content is more than double our usual recommendation.



Purina Equitub with Clarify

nikkibob1994@...
 

I looked for this in the messages but didn't turn up anything. Anyone feed Purina Equitub with Clarify to help control flies? Is this an okay product? Besides the alflafa which some horses react to, does the label suggest any reason not to feed it to an IR horse?
--
Nikkibob
Wisconsin, Sept 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nikki%20and%20Darby 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=77396


Re: Dr. K truths and myths about alfalfa

Bobbie Day
 

Here you go !
You can subscribe to Dr. K’s articles.
I have saved them all 😊




--
Bobbie and Desi
NRC Plus March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Easy and palatable supplements???

slonewby@...
 

My miniature horse is a very picky eater and even the slightest bit of supplement added to feed causes him to go off feed.  Any suggestions?  He definitely has a sweet tooth but, for obvious reasons, I can't very well indulge in that.  Is there an all in one, super palatable supplement that provides what he needs?  He's a quidder so is currently on 4 lbs alfalfa/timothy pellets and alfalfa/teff cubes daily.  He weighs just 200 lbs (maybe a little less...he could stand to gain a bit).  NSC is right at 9%.  Thank you in advance
--
Janine N in CA, 2021


Re: Candy Update: Invokana on board Questions and Concerns re. symptoms and diet

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Can you convert nitrogen to nitrates? And 9f so what is the calculation for example if hay has a test of 2.10 nitrogen as fed? 
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Re: Relevante trim guidelines

Lynn
 

Oh Bonnie! You made me cry...
The pot-bellied little guy with slipper feet and long orange hair has turned into a sleek black movie star with nice hooves.
And yes!! Three cheers for Lavinia and all of you who are walking out your own journey. 
I should add that the "movie star" has put on a few pounds since his mandated stall rest for his back feet. He hardly gets any food as it is. Our caregiver and I agreed we can't reduce his Stabul 1 any further otherwise he'll be eating nothing but supplements. He didn't even lose a pound keeping himself warm during the frigid weather! Sigh. Hopefully the start of real exercise will help him shed those extra pounds. And he isn't gaining any additional weight. (Thank goodness!). You made my day!

Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: Relevante trim guidelines

Bonnie
 

Lynn, I have been following your posts about Relevante for ages. Being happy to hear how your Cowboy friend expressed his amazement at how far R has come, I read the case history and looked at the first photos. The pot-bellied little guy with slipper feet and long orange hair has turned into a sleek black movie star with nice hooves. (Lavinia's very first hoof photo markups are startling compared to R's feet now.)
Thank you for taking on this horse and working at his improvement so diligently. You have documented everything so well. (2019 entry: "missed supplements five days due to losing house in tornado.") You deserve a prize.
Thank you for your wonderful example of love and grit.
P.S. Three cheers for Lavinia!
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


Re: Gunkie eyes with swollen lids.

 

Duane,
The information for new members is the bulk of the message that I posted to you above. I put the first paragraph Bold Type. Start by reading that paragraph and work your way downward. Any words that are in blue colored type are "clickable". In other words if you click on a word in blue it will open another section of information for you.

If you need assistance please post your question as a reply to this message (use the  blue "Reply" button at the bottom of this message) or alternatively you can create a New Topic which will start a new message from you to the Main Group. The "New Topic" button is in the column of subjects on the upper left of this page. Also our Wiki page button is in the left side column. The Wiki will give you step by step instruction for using this forum.
--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Group Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album Deceased


Re: Candy Update: Invokana on board Questions and Concerns re. symptoms and diet

 

Hi, Shawn. 
Protein of 15.9% in an all-grass orchard grass hay is highly suspicious for high nitrates. Sometimes grass hay that contains some alfalfa or other legume can have a profile similar to this hay and not have high nitrates. The only way to know is to test for nitrates. Checking is a fast and easy test through Equi-Analytical. 

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Re: Relevante trim guidelines

Lynn
 

Just got back from the farm. My farrier spent about 15 minutes studying Lavinia's instructions and markups. Before we started, he wanted to check "heel/toe" during movement. So first I walked him up and down the aisle - then I jogged to get him to move out. The boy hasn't forgotten how to gait. My farrier said he landed heel first all the way in both the walk and during gaiting. He also observed that he experienced no pain and commented on how straight his legs are and that his lower legs show no outward signs of swelling/inflammation. I cleaned his feet well before my farrier arrived and he never tried to put his front feet down on me or the farrier [another sign that he was experiencing discomfort). You wouldn't know by the spring in his step and the spark in his eye that he is 24. Nancy - you and Frances are so right - it does make the work worth while and it's a fight we'll never give up on. 
--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: Candy Update: Invokana on board Questions and Concerns re. symptoms and diet

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Just going to add to my post (now that I have more time!), you definitely could feed more Timothy Balance cubes and reduce the hay.  I'll reiterate again that the high protein in a grass hay, and that it is California hay make me very suspicious that nitrates are elevated.  They could easily be in the toxic range so I really think you should have nitrates tested and in the meantime soak it for 1 hr (cold) to remove as much nitrate as you can.  You can add this test to the sample you already submitted if they still have it.  See also this post on a possible worsening of laminitis pain due to high nitrate in the diet:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/237335
Cass, one of our Moderator is very experienced with hay and is familiar with high nitrates in California hays so maybe she can add to this if she see this.  Here, she is commenting about high protein California orchard grass hay and if you read the whole message chain you can see that irrigated 2nd and 3rd cut can be too high.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/237362

Great news that you got Candy's insulin down!!  Her insulin is low enough that her hooves should start to grow in much more healthfully.  Optimizing her trim and providing soft footing or padded boots are the best things you can do for her pain right now.  She is on the mend though!

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: turnout?

liisaacson
 

Thank you!
--
Lisa and Haven
Independence, MN
2015

Haven's case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lisa%20and%20Haven 

Haven's photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=261155 


Re: Wrangler

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Tiffany,

Welcome!  The first step is always Diagnosis, so please read up on this section of your welcome letter from Candice.  It is also possible your horse has PPID (esp if over the age of 15) so be sure to test for both conditions. 

If you have reason to believe your horse is suffering from laminitis right now, while you are waiting for a diagnosis you can take action on step 2, the Diet.  Diet changes include feeding only hay with less than 10% ESC (aka sugar) and starch, combined...as well as removing all supplements,  pellets,  hay cubes, etc unless they are on our safe feeds list.  If you don't have hay with <10%, or if you haven't had it tested yet, then we advise soaking the hay for 1 hour in cold water before feeding it.

I highly recommend Mad Barn's Amino Trace+ pelleted minerals for western Canadian hays/pasture.  It is safe for EMS horses, and I have found that between 100g-200g (1-2 scoops, provided) works out well with my hays.  I am feeding an Alberta-Saskatchewan hay right now and 150g of Amino Trace+ did a great job of matching my hay.  However, it is cheaper in the long run--and highly recommended by ECIR--to test your hay and have someone design a custom mineral supplement for that hay.  Mad Barn will made me a custom mix (a granular powder) that is an even better match for my hay, for about 1/3 the cost of feeding their Amino Trace+ pellets.  They do have a minimum order of 25 kg though, which works out to around a 278-day supply for my horse.  Cheaper yet is to buy the minerals yourself from a feed store, and measure them out yourself (as per the directions of your hay balancer)...this is more time consuming and easier to make a mistake on, but by far the most economical.


--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: turnout?

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Yes dormant grass is risky.  If it's still green it can be quite high in sugar.  Even if it's brown and appears dead, the roots are alive and are storing sugar for the spring, some horses will eat these roots.  Any signs in the snow of digging for it and I would muzzle.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Re: Dr. K truths and myths about alfalfa

Sara Gooch
 

Where can I find Dr. K's article, Truths and Myths about Alfalfa?

Thanks!
Sara Gooch , 2011, NE California
 


Re: Lavinia, request for trim markups

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Lara,

I've added mark-ups to Callisto's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=261012

Comparing the radiographs from 8-2020 to the most recent 2-2021 set shows that there has been very little improvement in the trim during that period. Both sets show horizontally long toes, thin soles, underrun heels and sinking. The HPAs appear to have become more broken back in the Feb views. frogs are somewhat atrophied and elongated, indicating that heel-first landings aren't occurring regularly. Part of the reason Callisto may be hesitant to use his frogs is that the the sulci are split up into the live tissues, which is going to be painful  To correct the issues, the trim needs to back up the toes and move the heels back while maintaining all the vertical height. Nothing can be removed from the soles, bars, heels or frogs. Soaking the feet in 50-50 ACV + water, then injecting a 50-50 mixture of athlete's foot cream (with clotrimazole) + triple antibiotic cream containing a pain-blocking ingredient will help treat any possible thrush/fungus/infections that may be hiding up inside. Once the cream is injected, plugging the opening with some cotton can help keep the meds inside while keeping dirt out.

LF lateral composite: On the rad, the pink line shows how the bony column should align and the line extends down to where the breakover point needs to be. This point is below where the current sole stops, due to the sole being thin. Purple line follows the actual alignment. Note how the purple line dips back and down, away from the pink line. That's a broken back HPA. Green line follows the angle of the new, healthier wall growth coming in under the coronary band and is parallel to the pink line. Blue line is where the toe needs to be brought back to, with the blue X being the excess length. Red line along the bottom indicates nothing should come off the bottom of the foot this line should actually be sloping downward as it moves from front to back to indicate the need to add more height to the back half of the foot. Yellow line #1 runs thru the coronary band, while #2 points to the extensor process. These lines should be overlapping, or at least very close together. The distance between them indicates the amount of sinking. The sinking+ long toes are combining to keep the soles thin.
On the photos, the green line corresponds to the green line on the rad. This is only a visual marker, NOT a trim line. Orange line shows where the heels should be found. Blue area corresponds to the blue line and X on the rads = toe that needs to be removed.

LF dorsal: Green line follows the angle of the new growth toward the ground. Blue is the remaining flared wall that needs to be removed, then beveled under to remove it from ground contact until the wall can grow in with better connections.

LF sole: Red circled area ia the sulcus split that needs to be regularly treated until it has healed. Blue solid line is where the perimeter of the hoof should be at ground level. Blue hashed areas are what needs to be removed in the toe length and beveled out of ground contact everywhere else so that the walls can grow in well-attached. Orange rectangles are where the weight bearing should be set - on the bar-wall juncture, without lowering it. Rasp the outer wall away from this area so it is no longer weight bearing. This will encourage the heels to drop down, rather than running forward. Add rockers to the backs of both heels. Leave the bars, sole, frogs alone as they need to add depth and callousing. See here for more info:

https://www.hoofrehab.com/Breakover.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HeelHeight.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/HorsesSole.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/FrogTrim.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/DistalDescent.htm

https://www.hoofrehab.com/Coronet.html

https://www.hoofrehab.com/TheBars.htm

RF lateral composite: Same general guidelines as the LF. The HPA looks better but the foreleg also wasn't fully weight bearing at the time the view was shot, so that improves the HPA to some degree. The lateral photo isn't a true lateral - it's more of an oblique, so the toe length isn't as obviously extended visually. Still needs to come back.

RF dorsal: Blue is the slight lateral flaring that remains.

RF sole: Same discussion as the LF.

There are no photos of the hinds but it is likely the same issues exist there, only they may be more subtle.

He should remain in boots and pads - which will both protect his thin soles/frogs and will provide pressure-and-release stimulation to help rehab them - until he can move out willingly with solid heel-first landings.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Relevante trim guidelines

Nancy C
 

Good story Lynn. Sure makes all the hard work worth it.

Congrats!
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2020-2021
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 13-15, ECIR Virtual Conference Room

3561 - 3580 of 262076